Anyone Have an Opinion?

Bulb #1: I got a hold of some of what I think are some large, real good looking bulbs last night at a really good price. They were simply called Hymenocallis Ismene--but I know they are not the yellow Peruvian plant from Brent and Becky's, or that one that can't be grown at less than 50 degrees. I saw a picture of them from the site they were, how shall we say this, recovered from. It was an estate in Waller County Texas being sold and the people that inherited it sold me and some friends of mine some of the plants. I know Ismene has been segregated out from Hymenocallis since 1990. I'm thinking it might be Ismenocallis x Excelsior since they were in fact naturalized here and they are white. The Ismene species are not supposed to do well here--too low altitude I guess. The picture was from a distance and we were not given the picture. The house was at least 75 years old. Wet or dry conditions? Acidic soil or not? Any thoughts?

Bulb #2: Nectaorscordium siculum. A relative of Alliums. These were given to me by a friend who wants me to grow them out to see if I can get them to naturalize. He gave some to several of us last night and we all live in different parts of Texas--relatively speaking. I know they need to be kept real dry while dormant. I think he was hoping I lived in the drier part of Texas and I don't. Anyone have any experience with this one in the southern USA or southeastern USA?

Thanks-
Debbie

edited to attempt to correct my horrible spelling

This message was edited Oct 12, 2006 10:22 PM

Hi Debbie~

Can't help with your Hymenocallis question, but you *must* post pictures and detail when it's in season. I'd love to see it.

I have grown Nectaroscordum siculum ssp. bulgaricum for several years now. They have multiplied well in that time. I leave the bulbs in the soil with other flowers that cover over the dormant bulbs once they've died back. I water the other plants regularly in summer, so they haven't been in a truly dry dormancy because of that. I would think that as long as they weren't kept soggy wet for long periods they will be OK. Mine get the summer rains and haven't shown any rotting (that I am aware of).

I dug mine up in September to rework the bed and I was peased with all the offsets that were there. They do not seem to set seed much for me, but this year there may have been a couple fruits formed, but I'm not certain that they contained any seed.

Mine also receive any winter rains we receive and it can be pretty wet here in winter. Once the rain falls, the clayey soil here holds the moisture due to the cold. Moist but not soggy wet except during long rains.

I think they don't care for the humid heat here; the leaves seem to go a bit limp. I think our warm weather comes a little too soon for them and they would prefer a more northerly climate to really flourish, but I'm happy with what they've done for me here.

Are your bulbs previously grown in Texas? I'm asking because I'd like to hear how they've done in your warmer zone 9 spring. Has your friend said anything about that?

Robert.

Thanks Robert!
I was thinking you were familiar with the Hymenocallis or Ismene (the bulbs look a lot like Crinum americanum and other crinum bulbs--just not as big as some can get). The Nectaroscordum siculum bulbs came from Oklahoma--that's a relief to know that they can return down here. I'll just try them in a variety of different spots in the garden to see how they work.
Debbie

One thing I've noticed about difference between Hymenocallis sp and Crinum asiaticum is that the foliage on C. asiaticum is channelled, especially where it meets the pseudostem and in cross-section, there is a thickened portion in the middle of the blade, especially noticeable and thick (again) where the leaf meets the pseudostem. Not sure how closely this characteristic is in C. americanum, but you might bear it in mind.

{Deleted statement}

Just checked my H. 'Sulphur Queen' and leaves are not divided around the p-stem; the oldest leaf makes a tube out of which the younger leaves emerge.

Also: I looked at my H. coronaria (until it blooms I can't be 100% sure it is correct.) and the foliage is thicker in the middle as in C. asiaticum.

Robert.
Corrected species, and edited.





This message was edited Oct 13, 2006 11:20 AM

This message was edited Oct 13, 2006 7:29 PM

Good points Robert--I'll get out there and check in the morning. Howard's Book has some other differences--I'll post those in a little while for you. Just got home from work and am hungry.
Deb

Deb~

I found the post and mis-remembered what I read so I deleted that statement form the above post.

What was said about Ismene and Hymenocallis:

"...in Ismene (including Ismene, Elisena and Pseudostenomesson) the sheating leaves form a long false stem; in Hymenocallis (Hymenocallis and Leptochiton) at the base the leaves can form a short neck, never a long false stem. "

OK. That's very different form what I said before. Forget that.

So, my 'Suphur Queen' has a short neck. OK. It's a Hymenocallis. That agrees.

But my H. festalis or H. xfestalis, or Ismene festalis--etc. has a long neck. So by the above statement, it's Ismene. The original cross was between H. longipetala and H. narcissiflora. So, is it Ismene then?

Well, the real difference is based on the flower, not the leaf form:

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/pbs/2005-June/021739.html

And the correct classification is still not settled, if you read the post linked above.

About Ismene not liking the altitude in Texas:

Well, even in spring when the temps were still relatively low, the leaves would go limp on my festalis. I thought it might have been too cool. Then when it got into the mid 70s, the same thing kept happening, so I thought it was also the heat.

I just couldn't decide what the issue was, because at night, the foliage would firm up.

True, I had it in a large pot, but it couldn't have been that hot so early, could it?

Robert.

So, about a "Ismenocallis" cross as you called it, that is quite possible, in a sense. As the linked page discusses, Ismene and Hymenocallis species change names and then change back, so a cross between the two genera is still either an intergeneric cross or a cross between two species, depending on the latest taxonomic info you go by. The debate is still on.

I found only one web reference to Ismenocallis and it is in Italian. That might mean the name has no real taxonomic value and means nothing, until the debate over which is Hymenocallis and which is Ismene. Even then, if it is an intergeneric cross, the official name may be different.


Do you have more info on x Excelsior?

Robert.

I'm kinda stuck on it maybe being this: Ismenocallis x Excelsior ; because it is naturalized here. I'm going to quote Howard for you to add to your info. Quoting verbatum word for word (remember Howard writes for zones 8-9):
"Ismene
10 to 15 species, native to the Andes of Peru, Bolivia, and Equador differing from Hymenocallus in that the leaf base forms a sheathing neck and the flowers are zygomorphic or actinomorphic, declinate or pendulous, , with stamens straight, or in some cases turned inward. Ismene was once again segregated from Hymenocallis by Alan Meerow in 1990, and appears to me to be a natural group based on the vegetation, ovary, seed morphology, distribution, and chromosome number."

Then he lists 7 species, 5 of which are unsuitable for our zones. One, I calathina (syn. Hymenocallus narcissiflora) he says though widely grown, it does indifferently in the lower south, but at times survives and flowers. Another one, I. verladi, he says is similar to I. longipetala, is from a lower elevation (1640 feet) and may do better for for us than some of the others (no elaboration by him on what he means by that).

edited to add: Maybe the Italian guy has done his homework and just doesn't know English. I think I need to "dig up" my International Bulb Society member number and see if there's anything in their data base.

Then he lists 6 hybrids I. x whatevers and Sulfur Queen is in this group. Not much elaboration on them but nice pics and the species crosses they were made from. One called Ismene x 'Dancing Dolls' is a beautiful white blooming pic and its a cross between I. amancaes x I. longipetala.

Then he has x Ismenocallis which he states is a combination of Hymenocallis with Ismene. (sort of like an amarcrinum or crinodonna I assume--my supposition here) and lists 4 varieties with 'Excelsior' being a cross between H. traubii x I. calathina. No elaboration there either but a beautiful white blooming pic.

Now I'm fairly certain I got spelling errors here but I was real careful with the latin names and the cultivar names. =)
My spelling might improve if I slowed down on the typing but I wanted to make this post within my lifetime.
Debbie


This message was edited Oct 13, 2006 7:26 PM

Did you enjoy your din-din? ;-)

If one could verify which is the seed parent, would that settle the name of the intergeneric? The seed parent part first? But I don't think that's what is going on with the "Orienpet" crosses.

You have something *very* hard to find in the x Excelsior, if that's what it is. And an heirloom too. Good for you!

To get back to your question of how to grow: I kept my H.xfestalis very well-watered. Always moist to wet.

'Sulphur Queen' -- It was a while getting started and going, so I just kept it constantly moist, but next year will see how it goes.

Italian page with pix of neck vs. no-neck (ha) and some nice variegated plants:

http://www.compagniadelgiardinaggio.it/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=803&sid=8f91f5da48bd462740382e7dd6a3a955

In the 7:35 post, the writer was citing Herbert, including the bit about chromosome numbers (which I didn't include.) Small world?

If everyone went with what Howard writes, that'd be that. What you quoted makes sense, but I'm glad it's not up to me! It may all be a power struggle to have your ideas approved at the grand taxonomic hoo-ha meeting where they hash these issues out, so some won't agree due to issues other than scientific, and people like me are just left wondering and waiting for the latest word, and wondering when it will be rescinded.

Isn't there something that could be done with DNA to settle all this once and for all? Not that it makes any difference to me, I just want to know what to call a plant, and know that that is what it is.......

Robert.

Oh, no:

This says my 'Sulphur Queen' is Ismene............

http://www.bulbsociety.org/GALLERY_OF_THE_WORLDS_BULBS/GRAPHICS/Hymenocallis/Hymenocallislist.shtml

What next?

I tend to think like the IBS--I may be partial; being a member.

You know that first link had some really great pics--looks like a spanish version of DG or Gardentalk, no? Sure wish I knew Spanish to be a fly on the wall for that discussion.

I think I'm just going to have to grow these out and see what they are....(patience grasshopper, I say to myself).

Yes dinner was good--I work straight through and don't eat all day so dinner is rather important to me. =)

How does that Sufur Queen do for you? Do they naturalize or do you bring them in to a greenhouse? I see you are in zone 7b--the PlantFiles say to protect below 50. I wouldn't mind trying that one too--but it definitely freezes where I am every single winter. I'm really west of Houston without all that concrete to moderate the temperatures. Really in zone 8b--but got tired of people telling me I didn't know what zone I was in. Funny thing is Yucca Do nursery is about 7 miles from here and they consider themselves to be in zone 8b.

This is my first time with 'Sulphur Queen' and it's in a pot and will be indoors for the winter. I saw it listed as zones 4-7, so if that is true, it is definitely OK in the ground here, and would naturalize quite well. I'll have a big clump next year because of all the offsets.

I'll most likely mulch in summer since the top zone is 7, that would seem to indicate a "dislike" for hot soils.

Robert.

It seems that the low zones refer to summer groth only. Most sources say zone 8 tops, but can over winter in 7 in a protected site with mulch.

So, now I just don't know....I have a couple places next to a brick porch and SE exposure that is pretty winter warm and may try it there.......


Robert.

If it doesn't like it hot then I'll definitely pass on Sulfur Queen here although it is beautiful. =)

Of course, I haven't met many bulbs I don't like. ;)

This message was edited Oct 14, 2006 9:44 AM

Well, that was speculation about the hot soils thing....before you pass on it because of my comments, do check it out from someone who's not just going by how it sounds. I could be off the mark.......

Maybe someone on the Southern Gardens forum can help.

Robert.

If I happen to find a source I'll definitely give it a try.

Tony at PDN seems to say that 'Tropical Giant' is an old cultivar in the deep south. Could this be what you have?

R.

Yes, I've thought of that but tropical giant is a spider lily right? I haven't got time to look right this second. What is PDN?

Plant Delights Nursery. www.plantdelights.com .

Enjoy the breadth.
(corrected bad link)

This message was edited Oct 19, 2006 11:50 PM

Forgot: 'Tropical Giant' is a Hymenocallis.

I took a closer look at my 'Sulphur Queen' and it has a long neck too. It was hidden by the leaves of all the offsets. So it matches what has been said about Ismene, too!

Robert.

It's thrown in that group by Howard. That link's not working for me--maybe they have taken off their "for sale" list, perhaps? I still need to take the time to look that one up again in Howard; I'm trying to sort out a mess of Zephyranthes, Cooperias, and Habranthus' at the moment. I have to take DG breaks from time to time. =)

spelled it wrong: www.plantdelights.com

http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Current/Detail/03015.html for H.'Tropical Giant'.

Sorry!

This message was edited Oct 15, 2006 12:22 AM

I guess I shall see on that one--looks like it could be a possible contender. I had to "heel in" the unknown bulbs for a few days until I can figure out how to deal with them. I think its supposed to rain again tomorrow which won't help at all.

I grow Hymenocallus liriosme and the differences look like those two could easily be told apart if that's what it turns out to be. Tropical Giant is considered a hybrid of the tropical Hymenocallis' while H. liriosome is an east Texas, Ark, Ala, and Fla panhandle native. I like H. liriosme, its very happy living at one end of my Louisiana Iris bed.

I also got some Crinum 'JC Harvey' hybrids, C. americanums, more Cooperia's, Zeph's, Habranthus, Lycoris
traubii (I think), Freesia laxa, 3 or 4 alliums (some native to TX), and a spattering of other bulbs, and yet even more Louisiana Iris'. I got the LA's knocked out pretty quick--but the rest of this is taking time to deal with. I'm tired and am going to bed for the night! =)

The cold has arrived here--several nights in the lower 30s and there might have been some frost in there too. Darn....had to happen.

But as usual, this week the days are predicted to be in the 70s and nights in the 50s.

I've taken my Ismenes (?) and Hymencallis in and they'll stay there, but may be toting some others back out. I'm really excited by having my 'Tropical Giant' stay green through the winter--expecting it to really go crazy in spring!! But next fall, I may have to do something else--it'll take a tub to contain it, I'm sure. Might be better to put it in the ground--I'd like to do that anyway for better growth--and leave it there. Might try potting up a couple offsets though.

Still waiting to bring some potted Crinums in. I'm letting them dry out now for storage. I have one last scape of C. xpowellii finishing this week and that'll be that.

Robert.

Stays warm here until December--its literally raining cats and dogs out there today. I guess it will be next weekend before some of this gets done. Oh well, such is gardening.

oops

This message was edited Oct 20, 2006 12:05 AM