I did it. My soon to be finished house, (don't even ask- ugh) has a swimming pool sized pond (30' by 18' by 8 ft. deep) , 4 feet from the back deck, (yes, I know that's awful close) then a 15 ft. stream going into a 1/2 acre pond. The whole area is devoid of any life, thanks to the bulldozer, and is slowly filling as it rains. Eventually a pump will pull water from the big pond, brim the small close pond, and cause the stream to flow, (as will my gutters, and/or the sump pump). Darlindeb was right, it was expensive, and I haven't even started the stream and rockwork.. I don't intend to use a liner, as the soil in this part of OH is avonburgh, (clay), the excavation yielded absolutely no rocks at all. My only questions at this point are -has anyone ever done this (no liner), and does anyone understand the freezing limitations of the waterlines? I need a 2" ID minimun to make this thing look real, (can I just use PVC this time instead of that expensive spiralflex line?), last time I did this, I buried it just under the ground, and had no problem, but that was on a severe hill, so the water couldn't pool and freeze, this one is very flat, and I dont want to have to dig a 30" deep trench if I don't have to.. any advice is greatly appreciated.. it looks like "mudville" right now, (picture attached), but I have high hopes,. and would love to avoid any pitfalls, or mistakes that any of you have experienced along the way to a great water feature. Thanks, Steve
excavation- $15K -now what?
I don't see the picture.
Jeri
I don't know if you'll find too many people on here who have experience with building a claylined pond, most leave that to the professionals. It can't be just any clay for a lasting not leaking pond, it's supposed to be sodium bentonite clay.
I know you weren't asking about the pump, but you mentioned sump pump? I was hoping you could clarify that......you're not going to use a household sump pump, right?
I wouldn't have a clue about the pipes....I hope someone does.
Good luck, sounds fun!
Comes up behind Azreno yells BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
You weirdo! LOL
It's waaaaay out of my league too. I would love to learn more about unlined ponds though and hope someone will offer info.
I will try again on the photos.. -my excavator has built many ponds/lakes, and assures me that this land (Avonburgh-clay) is lousy for building houses, but ideal for ponds,. -as did the Soil and Water conservation guys.. sodium bentonite is super-swelling and great for patching holes as I understand it, but not needed in this part of OH. That's why I decided to skip the liner. My "household sump" pump is feeding this first pool with crystal clear water, (that has percolated and filtered through more gravel that you can imagine under the foundation). Yesterday, they buried all of the downspouts to feed the same. Now I'm scared cause the downspout seems to enter below the final water line.. these are only 6 inches under ground or so.. -so what about freezing??? Azreno- I used 2 heavy duty sump pumps last time, and swore them off,. -this one will be dry,. -they performed OK, but since they were always submerged, they were yuchy.
More pictures, standing in doorway, (you can see it) .. that distance is 14 feet, the deck will reach out 10 feet.. scary stuff.. you can see the "stream" connecting these 2 is carved out.. eventually to be rocked in completely, if for no other reason than to stop erosion, as there is no liner..
Now that is impressive! It looks like you have red clay there. That is what I had in Cincinnati. I moved last year and now I have crumbly gray clay that suffocates everything. How do you know it's Avonburgh and what is different it it's make up? I'm not questioning you but trying to learn something. :) Out here people dig ponds everywhere! They seem to hold water well. Heck! My yard holds water well. LOL
I'd love a huge pond like that right at the front of the house, sort of the boathouse effect but am afraid the house would fall in. ;)
Sounds like you know what you're doing with the clay! I do hope someone can help with your questions still..........but here's a site where you'll find some heavy duty DIYers in pond construction, you're likely to get more help there
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/
The reason I ask about your pumps....are you using actual pond pumps or pumps that are used as household sump pumps? Household sump pumps are not meant for this purpose, constant 24/7 use, neither are pool pumps. Quality pond pumps are efficient and durable, the comparison in electricity can be unbelievable. The upfront cost is more, but over the long run you will save so much more. I just hate to see people starting out with the wrong pump, then change later, it's so much easier to start off right.
Badseed- this is just east of Cinti OH. The people from the Soil and Water conservation dept. are SO helpful out here! They came out, for free!, and gave me satellite photos showing the soil types, and gradient elevations, etc. for calculating watershed. (6 to 50 times watershed is what they recommended) for 100 acres surrounding my 5 acres, along with loose recommendations of where to put it, brochures, etc. Definitely the easiest part of this project.. I'm told that in the old days they'd give you 10%-15% toward the digging cost! Azreno- thanks for the link! -and your warning on pumps is well taken,. -my first pumps were industrial sump pumps, capable of semi-solids, and OK for continuous use.. -but since they are submerged, I had problems with breakers tripping, and when I had to service them, after hanging under 6 feet of water, -what a mess!! rust, black funk,. yuch. Replaced it with a dry pump (forget the specs. but it was about $750.00) -and it was beautiful. The 2 sumps were $385 apiece.. -a no-brainer.
Thanks guys, I'll post some more photos as it fills.. -Last question: anyone have trouble with health dept and routing sump water into the pond? -This water is crystal clear after percolating through the ground,. so I want it.. -but I suppose if your washing machine overflowed, the sump would pump "grey water" into you pond.. -nobody seems to know if there is a regulation that I've talked to yet.
The Soil and Water conservation dept couldnt answer your question on the washing machine overflowing
and so on , try the health dept. Also remember that gray water from the washing machine will contain who
knows what ... (oils from your clothes) and would also depend on the soap you use in the washer on what it contains.
From the size of your pond and what a washing machine would put out if it overflows the ratio might not matter
but that could also depend on what fish or plants your going to have in the pond.
Another Note: Fire Departments love nice big ponds for that just in case we need water .. if its not to late
check with them about putting in a stand pipe so then can draft water easer from the pond ..
might help on your fire insurance also ..
Thanks Sparky! We have enjoyed a discount for having a pond on our insurance policy so long, I've taken it for granted.. I will ask them about the standpipe,. -the Fire Dept. has been great about burning the material from the excavation.. on the "greywater", I'm definitely going to have to have the washing machine water go to the mound.. -it's code, plus I don't want suds with my fish :-) If everything works out, my stream will flow whenever it rains, as ALL of the downspouts, etc. (from a lot of roof and deck) flow right into it. My pond builder said it might take 2 years for the pond to fill.. -I hope he was being REAL conservative.. Anybody have thoughts about when I should put minnows in?? Also curious about Koi, after seeing some great posts on DG. -I have some prize largemouth bass to relocate once things stabilize, -is it possible for them to live together? (Koi and Bass) -Obviously any offspring would be gobbled up,. -but if I really liked it, I could use the first pool for Koi, and then bass in the pond.. hmmm.. Koi farmer,. -sounds good! -I heard a single Koi sold in Japan for a million bucks!! -Any Koi tycoons out there?
LOL I think all the koi tycoons are in Japan. It would take a ton of $$ to bring over good breeding stock. Most of us have your basic common pond koi, very pretty but not going for any amount of $$. I don't know about mixing koi and bass.
$15!!! k MY MY, my eyes got sooo big!!! I thought my pond was expensive according to some friends. Are you going to breed kois or put edible fish?? I was too lazy to read the whole thread. Just being curious. Please post pictures after it is finised. Thank you. Bellie
I'll post pics. -but it will be a long time before this thing is pretty.. I have a couple Koi (app. 7 pounds, had em for years) that I plan to relocate.. -as long as I can catch em. Breeding Koi sounds like fun, but there doesn't seem to be any money in it(?), so I'll probably just mix a few in with my bass,. -maybe use the top pool to grow them large enough to be safe from Herons, bass, etc. For what it's worth, I bought a cheap landscape design CAD software,. -and made a cool little pond and stream system.. my guy said it would be $58K,. -unbelievable.. -of course now that it's done, every body with a dozer or backhoe for gutters, waterline, septic mound, etc. is happy to tell me they would have done it for far less.. -whatever. Awhile ago a guy nmed BILLR from the northwest somewhere posted a thread here, with photos of a beautiful stream that I hope to emulate, if you can find it, it's gorgeous.... -probably next summer til I get much done,. right now I get to learn how to lay hardwood floors and make a stone fireplace,. -forgive me if I sound frustrated,. -but at this point I wish I'd bough a trailer and called it a day..
With that many trees and roots nearby, could bentonite even do the job in the long-run?
How do you feel about liner? Or would it bother you to see it under the surface?
You can dye the water blue, which helps reduce some algea, but also makes it harder to see the liner, which will be partially cloaked by algae that starts to form on it anyhow.
Good question, I think bentonite is too expensive for anything but patching.. My last waterfeature was on a hill, and I found liners, especially the rigid ones, really hard to work with,. -and hard to hide.. -for this one they would have been HUGE and heavy.. and expensive. The house isn't done, but the ponds are filling WAY ahead of expectations.. -I'll attach today's pic. -you can see that the little trench I dug to relieve the smaller pond is actually flowing.. -cause all the gutters and sump keep feeding it.. not much to look at,. -but with a few tons of big rocks... and some warm spring mornings.. this thing can work this way because the watershed is right, and the soil is clay.. I don't think I'll regret skipping the liner the way this thing is filling.
Steve-Check out this link. I have done a bit of research about building a "natural" pond for swimming. I supposed you mean to line it with bentonite clay. Check with someone in your area that drills wells. They use sodium bentonite and I have bought 50# bags for 5-6 dollars a bag. They can also be a good resource concerning for your particular area's soil and perc rate.
http://www.aquahabitat.com/ponds.html
Loretta
This message was edited Dec 2, 2006 10:50 PM
I am no expert, but as bass are carnivores that eat other fish, I would imagine that koi would be an expensive supper for them when they got to a larger size. I have raised neither...just logical.
Regards, neat pics, by the way!
Laura
Not if the koi are as large or larger than the bass :-)
Thanks for the link shadowgirl; I have looked at some neat natural ponds someone from here linked me to.. I am tempted to keep the smaller one as more of a swimming hole, maybe with a few big Koi- no need for Bentonite, as our soil contains plenty of natural clay,. and you're right largosmom, bass would love to eat Koi,. -I have 3 Koi in a 1 acre pond that I intend to move, all pushing 8 pounds,. (no bass here a threat!) Anyone know of an easy way to catch the Koi for transport? -I had no choice but to release them into their current home, but I want them out now.. (this spring, anyway) maybe a trap?? -I'll post some more pics. when the deck is done this weeekend.
That is true, but i would still worry about it, personally. One thing I've learned about aquarium fish over a couple of decades is that you have to be careful mixing different species of fish together. DH also reminds me that Koi are carp, basically, however. As long as the pond is big enough for the fish to peacefully coexist without too much stress, things should be OK.
I look forward to seeing more pics of your pond as it matures.
Laura
The key word is estabilished, which takes time with a earth bottom pond. Waterlilies and lotus thrive in packed clay. Weeds aslo! Your beautiful plants will overrun the pond and become unsightly and will not bloom well- you should contain your plants in sections or very large containers- something you can weed and feed from a reasonable deapth and keep fish from up rooting and eating your plants. You,ve gotta go in and it will have to be maintained. Also keep the ducks away-they will keep your water stired and up root. I would not put fish in right away- they keep things stirred up to-wait until your pond settles. Plant your plants in Cow manure -well rotted -mix at a ratio of four parts soil to one part manure will add bactiria and is perfect plant food. It will get green and nasty in the spring- let it please -at first-add barley hay in late spring-you can put hay uder your rocks on the bottom so it doesn't float- let the natural process work for you- all that nasty will settle-your pond will balance itself and become a natural pond. If you have filters don't over clean them!!! If you contain your aquatic plants and feed them in containers-you are able to control growth and you are not fertilizing weeds that will be carried in on the winds. Alot of precaution and weeding but outstanding beauty! As far as pumps- that's my hushbands dept. and he's always busy in one of our 161 earth bottom ponds!
Happy Holidays!!!
Thankyou for the interesting points on plants Perryswater! I hadn't considered containers, but I like the idea.. -are there any plants you would recommend directly planting, (ie non-invasive)?
I'm going to put in fathead minnows soon, -don't think I'll worry about fish til Spring. Right now I'm having as many tons of rock bought in as I can convince my wife we need, to build the stream. My mound builder (didn't say anything to me, but to my deck guy).. seems to think that water will migrate from my first pond, to the foundation of my house, (weeping?) -I figure that's 15-20 feet underground at a depth over 6 feet or so.. my excavator said the clay will saturate 12 inches, and seal.. -we haven't even moved in yet, but it does seem like my sump pump runs awfully often(?).. any thoughts? I suppose I could drain the little one and put a liner it,. (sounds like as much fun as falling off a roof), -but how could you tell anyway? I've never lived with a sump pump before, but this house is built on top of more gravel than I could have imagined, so any water making it to that area moves around unimpeded, that's for sure. Thanks again for taking the time.. I'm sure I will have a lot of questions once I try to actually grow things.. -right now it seems terribly sterile. thx Steve
Hey Steve,
Sorry for delay reply can only jump in and out of forums-crazy busy!
In all honesty I do not know a hardy aquatic plant that will not become invasive in a dirt bottom -given time-some spread slower than others- We have left and example pond in the gardens for people to see-it has all waterlily leaves and NO blooms-completley covered. Most people think well I can plant on sides and the plant can't grow in the deeper parts of the pond NOT TRUE-Lotus for example will spread out and float their runners and you loose the looks your after. Please consider containers even in lined ponds unless you drain it every year aquatics will take root in rocks and leaf litter. I will ask my husband to reveiw- and get back to you on this drainage question when I can pull him out of the ponds!!!
If you are still considering planting lotus in your new pond see my post started today. They have totally taken over my pond. In the summer, beautiful, sure, but you can't see the water. In the winter it is an unsightly mess. I read with interest a readers post that said koi will eat all the lotus, but my pond is a farm pond with large bass, frogs, turtles, etc (that is if the lotus haven't eaten them...) and I don't think I could afford this method of control. Learn from my pain...