I'm rooting a Dwarf plumeria cutting, I read the great stuff on the sticky, prepared a 1 gal pot with perlite and cactus mix, used Rootone, and also followed Pauls advice to put the food into the mix before planting put pea gravel on top, watered it in and added some SuperThrive. Stuck in the plumie to the 4" mark and set the pot on a heating mat in a room that's staying in the mid-70's. Questions: do I water or do I not water, or mist and not water or mist and water? This plumie will live inside until we get hot again next summer. I can put it on a humidity tray when it's rooted and growing but we have a whole-house humidifier; we keep the house at 40-50% relative humidity. Will I need the tray or will misting be enough? The heatimg mat has to serve for everything I'm rooting now; it's in a room with northern windows (I know, bummer) but I'm leaving the overhead halogen fixture on. The broms I'm rooting need lower light, should I put my Ott light on the plumie?
Need advice on rooting one now
Hi bbinnj, dwarf plumeria cuttings root very slowly, it seems. I rooted one this summer, and they need lots of bottom heat. The bottom two inches should be planted. Four inches is a little too deep. I would remove the pea gravel from the top so you can see if the soil is moist, wet, or dry. Pea gravel has been reported to cause burns on the stem tissue if it gets too hot. Since your plumie is on a heat mat in a warm room, watering is not an issue. In fact, you will need to keep the soil moist to keep the plumie cutting from desiccation (drying out). We always warn against watering too much when rooting cuttings in a cold season, but this does not apply to cuttings on a heat mat, especially in the house. The soil should not be allowed to dry out. Misting is great anytime. You will need to keep the cutting hydrated until it starts to grow leaves on its own. You will not need the humidity tray at all. The lighting will be beneficial too.
Hi Clare, Many thanks! I have wooden skewers I use to check for moisture levels. I'll pull the plumie up so less is in the soil and keep it moist. I also read that the dwarf varieties were tricky to start from cuttings, could be that why they're $60 as plants! I'll move the Ott light over to it when I get home. And I'll mist it too.
bbinnj, Florida Colors sells Dwarf Singapore White and Dwarf Singapore Pink grafts for $25 each. They also sell Dwarf Deciduous (great fragrance) for $20 for a grafted plant. So don't dispair if something happens and it doesn't root. It is tricky to root in the fall and winter, especially indoors. The key is keeping the soil temperature at a steady 80 degrees or higher. If you have a soil thermometer, you can test the heat level. Be careful that the wooden skewers don't break new roots, which are very fragile. I just look at the soil and lift the container to see how heavy it is. You should be able to tell if the soil needs moisture. Typically, well-draining potting soil dries out very fast when kept on a heat pad for 24/7. Lights add additional heat so don't be shy about keeping the potting soil moist. I'm still watering my cuttings everyday because they are dry every day. It is still very warm out during the day, but the nights are starting to dip down into the low 50's.
Do you know GordonHawk? He is an amazing grower with a rooftop garden in New Jersey. He has plumerias up there too! I have family in Chatham. If you are close to Gordon, you guys should get together and talk plumies!
Hi Clare,
When I checked a few months ago, the prices were higher and $25 was the price I saw for just a cutting. The plumie came to me as a trade for an OOP book by Bar-Zvi, that's why I checked to see if the trade were fair, considering I never rooted one before. And after trading my book, I don't want to be left with nothing for it (and I invested in the mat, the pot, the potting mix, and the Rootone). I wanted a dwarf because I need it small enough to bring indoors at the end of the summer. It's in a plastic pot, that won't dry out as fast as terra cotta. Because the pot is big, the top of the potting mix remains cool to the touch. I put the Ott lamp by it, it should be getting about 50,000 foot-candles a day now. Misting it too.
I awoke to 44 deg this morning, definitely a fall chill in the air on the last day of summer.
Where are you in SoCal? My folks live in LA, in the Hancock Park area, they used to live in West Hollywood and I graduated from Fairfax High. After I finished grad school at Stanford, DH and I moved to orange County, I worked in Irvine and he worked in La Jolla. My older one was born in Mission Viejo, I tell her she was born in a mission!
No I don't know Gordon Hawk, there are 6 million folks here in the Garden State . Where is he in NJ? Would be good to meet a plumie groupie here for advice. I'm in West Orange, not far from Chatham, BTW.
Hi bbinnj, I just meant if you knew GordonHawk from the threads he posts here at Dave's. That would be amazing if you knew him in person! He always post pictures of his amazing garden on the roof of his place against the back drop of NYC. Here's one of his threads: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/640971/ He is actually in Brooklyn, NY. He went to Panama and brought back plumeria seeds for everyone: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/595416/
It is a bit concerning that you say your pot is big for rooting your cutting. A big pot means that there is a lot of unused soil, which will take longer to heat to an optimum temperature and which will take longer to drain well. Depending upon the size of your cutting, it should be no bigger than a one-gallon container. If it is a huge cutting -- two to three feet -- then a three-gallon size is often recommended. Rooting cuttings can be tricky this time of year, and dwarf plumies root particularly slowly, it seems, so I wish you the best of luck. You've got all the right tools so it is just up to the plumie now. I can root nearly anything in the summertime, but I've lost my share of cuttings in the fall and winter, including two dwarves, but I didn't have the heat pad back then.
It is definitely cooling off here. It got down to 57 last night, but it was 50 the night before last. My new greenhouse hasn't arrived yet so I'm using this little mini-greenhouse to keep my cuttings and new grafts warm. The digital sensor in there indicates that the air temp is in the high 70's at night so I know the soil temp is at least 80. It cost $9 from Harbor Freight Tools, and I just put it over an old frame that I had. I've got two heating pads in there on the two shelves that are on 24/7.
By the way, I wrote an article about how I root cuttings and grow plumerias at http://www.plumerias.com if you want to read it. The PDF version can be saved to your computer's hard drive and has more pictures than the web version. Look for the link "Clare's Garden" at the bottom of the web page.
This message was edited Feb 21, 2008 1:11 PM
Hi Clare,
It's in a 1 gal container and it's over a foot long, maybe 18 inches. that's why I stuck 4 inches down into the mix. I was advised to start with a big pot. I waited to get the heat mat before starting it.
I've been to Camarillo; how could I not, driving between Stanford and LA?
Brooklyn is closer to me than Camrillo is to you. Haven't seen his posts. I'm met other NJ DGers who live near me for plant trading and viewing, so it's good to know someone else can grow these things way up north here. On his roof, he has no shade! Our property is shady all summer, great for the AC bills, not so great for growing full-sun stuff. In fall, the southern window isn't too sunny yet because the leaves have to drop. Then it'll be so sunny we keep a radiometer and a solar motor-driven rainbow maker in it to fascinate everyone. Our western windows are high awning windows (used to be teensy clerestory windows; they are now broad but up at the ceilings and they have no sills).
Beverly
Beverly, I had to smile after I read your post and saw your name. It is my Aunt Beverly that lives in Chatham, New Jersey.
A one-gallon container is perfect for that size cutting, and the bottom two inches stuck in the pot is perfect too. Our plumie buddy Brad (Flyboy) lives in New Jersey too, but he has plumerias at his home in Florida. He should be coming back to Florida soon, I think. He's such a nice man. There are other plumie growers in NJ too, and I know it isn't easy to do. You colder climate growers have my respect. I have it easy since I live in a climate with a mild winter, and I am grateful for that and appreciate it every day. You could conceivably get blooms inside during the winter in the future since your lighting and heat situation is so warm.
May I jump in with a question? I have some cuttings which, if rooted, are just barely rooted. They are in the greenhouse, min temp around 60, on a germination mat. Is there any harm in keeping them on the mat after they are well rooted?
Sb, not at all. In fact, the warmer the soil temperature, the better they will do. I have several well-rooted ones on heat mats.
Clare, I made a mini-greenhouse for the plumie cutting out of a clear soda bottle. Do you think that will keep it too humid? I can poke a couple of holes in it.
Beverly
Hi Beverly, that's a good question! It would make a neat experiment! Cuttings root very quickly on a heat mat in a humid greenhouse so fashioning your own humidity dome should have the same effect. Your goal is to keep the cutting hydrated (or rather keep it from drying out) until it roots. Whether you do this by misting or by a humidity dome, the end result should be the same. Since you have such a dry mix of cactus mix mixed with perlite and since it is on a heat mat, the mix is going to dry out very quickly. You may need to water everyday, but if you use a homemade humidity dome, the condensation created by the dome should help to keep the surrounding soil from drying out. You don't want the soil to ever go bone dry, and cuttings will fry on a heat mat if kept too dry. I'm watering my cuttings in my little mini-greenhouse just about every day, and the heat mats are on 24/7.
Hi Clare, I can feel for the moisture in the cactus mix, it has some humus or something because the weight of the pot changes with evaporation and again with watering; water doesn't just run out but I can tell that some water is retained. So I am keeping the mix moist not wet. The cutting is green; green is good, right?
i wish i could remove that whole pea gravel step on the plumeria101 forum. it has no regard for the grower's climate. it was deadly for my cuttings back when i started growing plumeria. bummer!
i have a different take on humidity since i live in arizona. i find it amusing when people talk about misting plants. i rooted all of my cuttings outside in the heat and low humidity of our desert. our even grow my orchids and hoyas outside during the summer. no misting. now don't get me wrong. i know it can't hurt and i'm sure it has benefits. however, in dry conditions it doesn't amount to much if you aren't constantly out there spraying the plants, which most people can do because they work. so why did i bring this up? i don't know. LOL really though, i just wanted to mention that just like pea gravel, misting isn't necessary for rooting.
dete
I'm beginning to think that there is no plant whose propagation technique is more variable by climate as the plumeria. My gravel burned my cuttings, too, but they survived. I have them on the heat mat in the greenhouse, but unlike Clare, I'm watering about every two weeks.
I agree with dete about misting, not just for plumerias, but for plants in general. The humidity bump for me is short-lived unless I am out there doing it every 1-2 hours.
Hi Dete! Yeah, I warned people about that darn pea gravel too earlier this growing season, and some people here at Dave's got stem burn too. It's terrible that Plumeria 101 recommends it. I wish they didn't. Besides, the top gravel holds moisture in, which is the worst thing for plumie roots, and you can't see if the soil is wet, moist, or dry. I always recommend removing it when I get the chance.
About misting, I was surprised to find that some of my cuttings became desiccated in the mini-greenhouse this spring. Temps were way up over 100 in there, and they were on a heat mat. Misting seems to help cool temps down, rehydrate the tissue, and smooth out wrinkles. I think misting is beneficial not only because it raises the humidity of the surrounding environment but also because it is beneficial to the cuttings as a source of moisture because they have no roots that can take up water. I also think it is beneficial to the grafting process, but as always, I reserve the right to be wrong! LOL!
I like to add my thoughts about the rocks...
I have never burn any of my plumies from them..
Like i said before, the rocks don't get that hot the black pots were hotter..
I shot a laser temp gun at the rocks and the pot, and the pot was much hotter..
I am in the south florida so if i don't get burns from the rocks why do some of you?
It took me awhile to fiquire it out but i think the answer is this...
Possible reasons!
A:
I use gravel rocks like they sell for cemet and not the shiny smooth river rocks which may get hotter or
when they get wet or if shiny enough will reflect the sun rays directly at the stem where they both come into contact..
My humidity could also be helping me and keeping the rocks cooler..
This is the heat theory!
B:
I always wash my rocks no matter which ones i use..
I put them into a 5 gallon bucket that i cut holes in to allow water to drain thru..
I fill the bucket up and run a hose thru it for several mins to wash away the silt from the rocks sitting in the bags for a long time..
This extra step could be the main reason why i don't get burns.
Why?
Simple really (lol took me this long to catch it) when i wash the rocks i am also washing off the high alkaline from them..
Most rocks like the ones you buy and the ones use for all roads are high in alkaline aka Lime.
The high ph from the rocks could be burning the stem especially when you water which releases more lime.
The lime is coming into contact with the stem..
This is why they say don't plant any trees by any roads or sidewalks that don't like high ph level soil.
The high PH theory!
C:
I use a very small layer of rocks so the soil can still breathe and yet keep the rain water and housewater from washing away the soil or leaveing a hole where the water hits the soil..
I also don't allow the rocks to surround the bottom stem...
I think a thick layer of rocks around the stem could also be keeping that area wet and causing what looks like heat damage..
I mainly use rocks today because now most places are selling those cheaper and thinner pots and i need the rocks to support the plant and protect it from tipping over during rain storms..
The Rock theory!
Just my 2 cents..
:)
I will post some pics of my rocks which might surprise some of you..
Got to go.. be back later..
Love your theories, Robert! Thanks to you and Dete and all for taking the time to give us your thoughts on this.
I think you are right that the humidity in South Florida keeps the rocks from heating up and burning the tissue. I know of a few people in Arizona, including Dete, that had the burns on the stem tissue this past summer, and I think it happened on a couple of especially scorching hot days. I think Arizona has higher temps than South Florida. I don't know about elevation, but perhaps that is a factor too. The other factors could play a part as well. I don't know about Stressbaby's humidity in Missouri; she'll have to let us know how hot it gets there and whether there is humidity there or not.
I think the rocks on the bottom are beneficial to keeping the pots from tipping over during rain storms and high winds because it adds weight to the pot, but I personally don't like them at the top. Stakes can be used to support the plant in lieu of the rocks if one wishes.
Hi,
I'm using white SpectraStone and it stays cool, let me tell you. And a thin layer of it too, not an inch like it says (I ran out!!). The plant light is a cool one too, I touch the plastic dome and don't feel heat there. I'm checking moisture by lifting the plastic pot (terra cotta color). I can see that the dome stays humid. I think I'm on top of things (hope so).
I used 3/4" white rock. This is limestone around here. Limestone might give a pH burn. Obviously if this is the problem a wash won't help prevent burn in my case.
Good theories!
Stressbaby (also a Robert)
Clare i have to use rocks on some of them i have no choice..
I don't use dirt or sand of any kind...
Most of my plants are in coconut/extra large perlite rocks you buy in the hydroponics stores..
I switch to this method due to all the rain everyday..
When it rains here all the time the raindrops throw the soil all over the place and this results in exposing
the roots...
The rocks slow down the amount of water the plumie gets while it rains and it helps prevent leeching of the soil
from all the rain everyday..
To each his own but some of us have to adapt to our conditions...
Those seedlings i show you with the singha beer need to be transplanted again and 2 of them rooted to my sidewalk cracks..
:)
The beauty of coconut is no matter how much you water, it will always hold 50% air and 50% water so the plant will
never drown...
rocks on seedlings..
Clare you might remember these pics..
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060708_0047.jpg
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060708_0048.jpg
same seedlings needing a new pot..
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060806_0356.jpg
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060806_0353.jpg
one more shot of rocks (2 year old grove farm seedling)..
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060911_1287.jpg
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060911_1290.jpg
i even use them on broken tips from wilma that were rotting on the ground..
injection of humic acids and some of my mojo juice and she will be fine..
oh ignore the little rot on her, she just forgot to put on her makeup..
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060813_0445.jpg
talk to later clare and everyone time for bed..
:)
This message was edited Sep 30, 2006 3:06 AM
I think maybe I was lucky this summer in rooting my cuttings...I used a gallon cont, and 1/2 soiless mix ( peat based) and 1/2 perlite. I put them out on the deck on a table-full sun ( at least 8-9 hrs) and didn't use the gravel-I really didn't like the fact that I wouldn't be able to see how dry the soil was. Thats a huge factor to me-as watering seems to always be one of the main culprits if there are problems. I watered them if they got dry, but let them dry out. Watered the tops once a day-in the am, and everyone of them started to root in less than a month, and now two of them are about to bloom ( including the singapore). I brought them inside once the nighttime temps started falling to the lower 50's and I am hoping that the two that are developing buds will continue... they are getting about 4-5 hrs of full sun through the window
Beverly, don't worry about too much heat! Heat is a very necessary and important element to rooting cuttings, especially this time of year. You want heat and lots of it. I don't think you have to worry about burn even if you have a high wattage light on the cutting 24/7, but it wouldn't hurt to not let the rocks rest right against the tissue just in case if you are at all concerned.
Stressbaby Robert! I'm sorry I thought you were a girl! LOL! I think I've heard of others using limestone, and it was fine. It probably does alter the ph a little, but I don't know if it would cause burns or not. I think that plumerias prefer slightly acidic soil.
Robert, your seedlings are beautiful and so healthy-looking! I have no doubt that you are an excellent grower! I understand what you are saying about the constant rain washing away the soil. That makes sense. You guys in Florida have sure received a lot of it lately. And you don't have to worry about burn because of your humidity, and you protect against it by keeping the rocks away from the base so that is good. You are right that we each have to adapt our growing methods to our climate and there are multiple ways to achieve the same thing. It is still good to warn people of what can happen with rocks on top, especially if they live in Arizona, it seems. Seedlings are really great because they seem to have more resistance to problems because of their stronger root systems. That is why I graft to seedlings when I can. By the way, that Grove Farm seedling is amazing! Wow! You could graft some other cultivars onto that one and have a multi-grafted tree if you wanted. You might be able to pull that dried black thing off of her. That looks like Black Tip that started and stopped, probably due to all that rain you are having. It's amazing that you can root that little piece.
Tigerlily, it sounds like you did super! Congrats on those inflo's!
Your right Clare it is good to warn about the rocks...
I just thought of something today..
I only watered my grass once this year back in March wow!!
:)
BTW
I wanted to photograph the same seedlings thru the growth process..
Here are 2 pics i took a couple of days ago of the same seedlings i showed you in my other post..
In the pic i am also showing the seedlings i didn't transplant with the others to see if there is a difference..
The trunks are a little fatter but the height is much different as you can see..
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060930_1496.jpg
http://www.whitesandsmedia.com/lopaka/20060930_1505.jpg
It is hard to believe that these seedlings were only 2 to 3" in May..
It took alot of money on special blends of nutrients to get them this way..
;=/
Robert, they look great. It seems that, the more room you give seedlings to grow in, the bigger that they get! I have about 60 one-gallon seedlings dying to be repotted, but they will have to wait until next spring. Yours are definitely huge for being only six months old. I hope you get flowers sooner because of all the special care and nutrients you have given them.
Clare if i do you will be the first if you like to have a cutting from my 150 seedlings...
yeah yeah mike i know your second :)
If it was me clare i would transplant some of them to see what happens to them..
More dirt mean the roots won't be touching the sides of the pots and that means
it will stay warmer :)
This message was edited Oct 4, 1912 12:44 AM
This message was edited Oct 4, 2006 12:45 AM
Robert, I actually did sink about 20 not too long ago. My problem is lack of room at the moment!
I know the feeling Clare i wish i could buried them all and just watch them grow..
:)
I been thinking of getting rid of my grass at least 50% of it..
:(
I too have thought about getting rid of the grass, but my doggie really needs it, and he comes first:-)
May I ask another question? New growth on my cutting suggests that they are rooting OK. I even have an inflo on 'Moir Pink.' These are on a heat mat and will be in 60*F GH all winter. Currently they are in the rooting medium which is 2/3 perlite, 1/3 Promix, so there is little fert. I've read the sticky, and understand the general principles on growing, but I'm wondering how to handle these new cuttings this time of year...
In this rooting medium, to keep on growing, they will need some fert, right? Or would I be better off transplanting now and hanging back on the fert?
Thanks,
SB
SB, how long have they been rooting? Since they are in 2/3 Perlite and 1/3 Promix, they are going to dry out very quickly on a heat mat, and there is even a chance that the roots could get fried a little if kept too dry. Last winter, someone -- I think it was Larry -- used an aquarium to root cuttings by filling it with Perlite, sticking the cuttings in, filling up the bottom inch with water, and then putting the aquarium on a heat mat. The cuttings did not touch the water, and they rooted quickly and easily, but when the water dried up and ran out, the roots got fried. The 1/3 Promix may provide enough moisture, but I don't know that for sure because I've never used that brand.
In any case, generally, cuttings need on average about 90 days to form a good root ball. I rooted some common colors in May, and I didn't repot them until September. At 30 days, they only have the start of roots. Depending upon how long they have been rooting, I would not transplant them if they have been rooting less than 90 days. Plumeria roots are very fragile, and you are sure to break some. I usually break some roots when I transplant, but if you have a nice healthy rootball, then it really does not matter.
When rooting cuttings, they need a very well-draining medium to discourage the cutting from rotting, but really this is only for fussy rooters. Some cultivars, like Celadine, will root in any medium. When it is time to transplant to a larger container, they will need a more substantial mix but still well-draining. Since commercial mixes tend to hold too much water, some plumeria growers add Perlite, Pumice, bark, sand, and/or cactus mix to the commercial mix. Some growers even have a cement mixer for mixing up their own personalized soil. Some just use a good draining mix found in the chain stores. What mix you plant in will be up to you, but it is important to make sure it doesn't hold a lot of water. I wouldn't fertilize until spring. Check out this link too: http://www.theplumeriasociety.org/dyncat.cfm?catid=2025
Thank you, Clare.
I got the cuttings sometime in July, as I recall. I had to restart the whole process, because the bottoms all rotted in my first attempt inside the greenhouse. Outside on pavement, I had better results. They have been rooting perhaps 60 days. I will just keep the medium moist and otherwise leave them alone.
My pleasure:-) It sounds like they will just fine until next spring, and you can repot with confidence then.