Share what you think about the words...

Share what you think about the words nursery propagated as opposed to nursery grown when you see it on packaging of plants you'd like to buy.

Well, you've obviously got a position on this. Spit it out. My assumption is that you'd like to lend your monetary support to nurseries that produce plants in an ethical fashion, and aren't hiding their horticultural practices.

I'll give a cynical list of possibilities.

Taken literally, nursery-propagated can mean several things.
1. The vendor sells plants that were propagated by an unknown nursery.
2. The vendor is a nursery; it has stock plants growing in it's possession, from which it grows and sells more of the same.
3. The vendor is a nursery; it collected plant parts from somewhere else, and grows more of the same.

Nursery-grown isn't much more illuminating.
1. It could just mean that the vendor sells plants grown by a nursery.
2. It could mean that the vendor is a nursery, and grows/sells it's own stock.
3. It could mean that the vendor is a nursery, and grows out and sells plants started by a different plant vendor.
4. It could mean that the vendor procures plants/plant parts from anywhere, and grows out and sells them.

The words in and of themselves don't mean much. Ask, if you care. I respect the nurseryman/vendor who claims their plants are "wild-collected" a lot more than those that have others do the dirty work and then claim their plants are nursery-grown.

Nursery grown to me basically means they can go out and collect from the wild, pop thousands of plants that were stripped from our lands into little pots, grow them out in a nursery for 12 months... then sell them to the unsuspecting public labeled as "nursery grown".

It's decepetive packaging as far as I'm concerned and they're counting on the buying public not differentiating between the words propagated and grown.

The collection of native plants for re-sale places a tremendous strain on our native plant ecosystems.

Nursery propagated is generally safe. It generally indicates the plant being sold was grown from cultivated stock and not wild collected.

Is it legal and ethical, or either or neither, to go harvesting wild plants? It can't be legal to take them from any public lands, can it? I have thought about where the native stock would be coming from since I'll be looking for some in a few months.

The label terms you give, Equilibrium, don't mean anything to me, but then I don't know what they mean native or non-native. I'll ask.

I have always understood as EQ does. However, nursery propagated, in my mind, may also means growing from seed collected in the wild.

Too many States to keep track of what's legal and what isn't but as a rule of thumb, please don't take anything from public land or parks. The flora and fauna belong to the public. The vast majority of land is held in private ownership so taking anything from private property without permission is generally a big no no.

The ethics of harvesting from public lands (US or foreign) even if there are no laws to stop these practices is in my opinion...a given-
http://www.panda.org/news_facts/newsroom/features/index.cfm?uNewsID=5406

Hey Rick, it was my understanding that nursery propagated would exclude plants grown from wild collected seed.

I think nursery propagated means their original stock plant may have come from the wild but they are now either growing their plants to sell from seeds collected from their own stock plants, cuttings, or tissue culture. Of course, this assumes they have ethics. Which may be a big assumption.

Sounds like any options under scrutiny in this thread are a bad thing.

I have Florida Native plants growing on my land and here in my immediate vacinity. I have transplanted some from the road swale up here closer by my house so I can enjoy and multiply them. Down by the road they all get mowed down.

Do not assume that wildflowers/natives growing on the side of the road are public land protected by the "government". A large majority of land is owned by private whatevers, and they share the swale as an easement to utilities, etc. In the end, the land owner makes decisions and has the responsibility to plow, mow, doze or pave the roadside swale.

I have taken to collecting seeds from these plants. I take a few and leave a lot for natural propagation.

My point, if you leave the responsibility of saving the natives to a government agency, chances are, that is only a temporary stopgap to the extinction of the species.

The State of Florida has bought up about 6000 acres of land out here in the rural counties. The position taken is, they are saving the land for nature. This will only last as long as it takes for the properties further south to inflate causing the population to move north to cheaper land, pushing those values up in the wake. I have no doubt, no matter how altruistic the current justifications are, that ultimately, Florida will sell the property back to developers at probably 4-5 times or more than what they paid for it. Consequently, the land will be dozed down and all native plants will be left flying in the wind.

So that being said, what is the harm of anyone, either a commercial venture or a small scale home nursery, collecting and growing from seeds, (I didn't say digging up plants) or any other means of propagation, those plants which will be in danger of disappearing.

Equi, you did ask for thoughts and I don't usually have many, but this is one, and it may get me thrown off the thread or erased, so be it.

Molly

This message was edited Sep 17, 2006 10:26 AM

I agree with what Molly says. By the time the USDA and the govt decide a species is threatened or endangered the gene pool is so diminished its not even funny. And by the time they decide an exotic species is invasive--its probably led to the destruction/extinction of many native plant species.

I take seeds from wild grown plants too, but leave enough for wild reproduction. I think I'm doing a little good at protecting the biodiversity as these plants that are often bulldozed, mowed, etc. before they complete their life cycle and can reproduce. I even have and grow some seeds from threatened species. I didn't collect the seeds, they were given to me. But I will grow them and preserve the genetic integrity of these plants. And not feel one bit guilty about it.

Just like I won't expect the govt to help me after a hurricane; I don't expect them to have the sense to protect some of our native plants. If commercial growers can get the numbers up on some of these species--so be it. The end result is that they are still in the gene pool.

Just my opinion too--I realize everyone has one; and many differ from mine.
Debbie

Wow, over 100 views and only 9 posts. Looks as if this thread has caught the attention of a few lurkers.

Am I the only one or has DG been having burps today? I tried to post a response a few times and got wiped out. Here goes, they say the third time is a charm.

Yes MollyMc, I did ask for thoughts and I appreciate you taking the time to outline yours. I sincerely doubt you will get thrown off the thread or erased for being honest about your thoughts unless there's some tattletale amongst us who is going to take your comments out of context and phone home to mom. I've read your comments three times now looking for something wrong with them and I personally see absolutely no intent to harm the environment anywhere in them. Looks to me as if you've had to watch more than your fair share of native plants getting mowed down or wiped out by herbicides and it takes its toll after a while. Same goes for dmj1218.

I guess in re-reading what I posted it could be misinterpreted. Let me try again as there were actually two separate thoughts rolled into one. Flora and fauna on public land belong to the public. I truly believe that if one is going to collect anything from public lands that it should not be done without first obtaining the requisite permits. The vast majority of our lands are held in private ownership. I truly believe that if one is going to collect anything from private lands that it should not be done without first obtaining permission from the landowner or property manager. It takes time to track down the appropriate authority to procure a permit and it takes time to track down landowners and land managers to ask permission. Unfortunately, I believe these are necessary steps to ensure one’s conduct is above reproach.

Why inadvertently reduce one's self to unorthodox practices when there are so many legitimate means by which to collect native plants. Subscribing to these practices sort of fuels the fire and gives native plant enthusiasts a bad name.

Many wild collected plants do not survive once transplanted and wild collected seed often does not germinate. The fact remains that collecting native plants or collecting native seed from the wild depletes the native population from which the plant or seed was collected regardless of whether it was harvested from privately owned or publicly held land. All too frequently, we forget the butterfly effect-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Progress is truly being made and this is but one example-
http://chicagowildernessmag.org/issues/summer2005/comed.html

Plans of action are being implemented across the US but change doesn’t happen over night. Here are two examples I found of positive change online-
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/rdsduse/rdsduse6.htm
http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/docs/plants/roadsides/

Oddly enough, I am a proponent of collecting plants from the wild providing one is doing so because obliteration is imminent and permission was obtained or providing one is qualified to collect or acting under the supervision of one who is qualified to collect for academic, scientific, or documentation purposes. I do not believe private citizens should be collecting any wild plant material. The excerpt to follow from the Washington Native Plant Society Policy On Collection and Sale Of Native Plants can be read at the following link-
http://www.tardigrade.org/natives/plantcollect.html


I hear you on this one Molly, You may very well be 100% on the money. One problem- there’s no crystal ball where we can get a peek at the ultimate disposition of that land so in the interim; perhaps it is best to take the powers that be at face value. There are many concerned citizens out there and I can’t imagine the backlash of such an act as that which you described given public awareness has been heightened.

That being said, some wild plants really do survive along roadsides, in abandoned lots, under power lines, by railroad tracks, in rights of way, as well as in “roadside swales”. We may think we are freeing them from a concentration camp where they will ultimately meet their maker but are we really?

Food for thought-
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/sustainable/2005fa_urban.html

More on collection ethics-
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/wildplant/sixbasics.aspx

This site probably sums up my beliefs quite well-
http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/greenacres/wildones/handbk/wo28.html

We really shouldn't be collecting from the wild. Many native plants are under tremendous stress as a result of development, habitat loss, competition from invasive species, and harvesting by people with honorable as well as not so honorable intentions. Harvesting without permission of the landowner or permits from appropriate authorities is wrong and further exacerbates the situation no matter how altruistic one’s intentions might be. We may think we are qualified to make the determination of what quantity to take which would “leave enough for natural propagation” but I’ve accompanied scientists out into the field and have watched them struggle with how much is too much. I’ve also watched professionals struggle with the identification process forcing them to leave plant material behind because they weren’t able to determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that the plant they were attempting to collect was what they were permitted to collect. There are so many variables to factor into the equation that it is often mind boggling. There are laws for a reason.

I try to focus on my own properties by diligently removing invasive species and planting back natives. Volunteering under land stewards on public land affords me the luxury of being able to work under the protective guidance of a professional actively involved in the field of environmental protection. Becoming an aid to a scientist provides a window into how complex the issues surrounding collection can truly be. Purchasing plants from reputable nurseries both local and on line indirectly supports conservation efforts. Gifting or trading plants with other native plant enthusiasts provides opportunities to share and grow. Being a member of well established native plant organizations provides one with opportunities to legally salvage wild plants. Applying for permits to import plants to include threatened and endangered species isn’t easy but it can be done. There are many ways one can continue to collect without doing so from the wild.

Plants of Concern monitors native plant communities. Data collected is turned over to appropriate parties. When I first joined Plants of Concern, we were thanked for getting off our butts and doing something about this predicament we’ve collectively gotten ourselves into. She stated that many native plant populations were currently threatened by plant collectors (poachers) as well as by more obvious threats. I can’t help but wonder how much further along we would be if we humans put the same energy into picking up garbage, reducing our use of chemicals, and removing invasive species as we did into feeding feral cats, collecting seashells, and harvesting plants from the wild for ourselves.

"There is a responsibility in the taking of any life. To pull up a plant by the roots for no good reason is the same as wantonly killing an animal."
-Tom Brown, Jr.

A propagator starts a plant from seed, cutting or tissue culture. A wholesaler grower raises the seedling, rooted cuttting or plantlet to market size. Then it goes to a retail nursery.
Prohibition (Been there, done that.) whether it is beer, drugs or plants, limits supply and increases price. This makes poaching profitable. The time and risk (physical and legal) of poaching alligators cannot compete with cheap farm raised alligators.
The Sequoia has been extirpated. (Sequoidendron and Metasequoia) aren't doing well.) Many species chance of survival is in gardens. Reforestation had been a great idea, until TESRA banned taxonomy and science.

"I deny the allegations as well as the alligators." Jesse Jackson

love the quote U! =)

I'll admit that I am an eternal optimist. I see the best in people. I am cynical of claims that all involvement by people in nature is bad. I agree with UUallace and others that everyday people can play a huge part in serious conservation. In fact, I feel very strongly about that. In fact, I feel that most of the institutions that perform the task now generally do the job poorly. Too often they study while plants go extinct. Too often, they set aside land to protect endangered plant species, allow noone to visit, and proceed to neglect the invasives, the pests, or the changing water tables, or whatever and stnadby powerless while the population continues to dwindle.

Nurseries and gardeners, whether motivated by money or passion (it doesn't matter which), are by far the most nimble, involved, and free-thinking of groups to try to conserve rare and endangered plants. And in most cases they are the only ones trying to to repopulate places where endangered indiginous plants once grew.

All that said, with labor as expensive as it now is, and with tissue culture becoming more concistently viable and cheaper all the time, and with demand for wildflowers and native plants still relatively weak, that not too many people are making a whole lot of money at roaming the hills digging up plants. I could really have my head up my you-know-what here, but it just doesn't seem like a terribly lucrative endeavor. Look for Goodyeara to buy. There are but three or four nurseries selling it. None of those are probably selling vey many. Yes, I know about ginseng and I know about orchids, but each of those plants and many others can be raised by the millions via tissue culture. Perhaps by Conservation groups. If these plants were flooded into the market, they would immediately depreciate the price of wild dug plants and collapse the whole practice. This, to me, resolves the whole issue. Conservation groups make money from the tissued cultured plants, money is not spent chasing Darryl and his other brother Darryl all over the mountains, great areas of private land are repopulated with native plants which are tended by involved plant lovers, and the population at large generally becomes more aware of the beauty of our native plants and that many are at risk.

Additionally, I think it is absolutely criminal to allow land to be developed without allowing plant collectors to rescue plants first, even if they are doing it for profit.

As we all know, the difficulty here lies in policing. Which plants come from reputable sources who responsibly propagated or rescue plants and which come from nefarious behavior? But this is an issue that comes up in many things we buy. You simply must try to obtain good information and act responsibly...and trust others to do the same.

I think banning the propagation and sale of rare or endangered plants is not a good answer.

Scott

In the not so distant past-
http://www.fws.gov/southeast/news/1999/r99-087.html

Dionaea muscipula is but one example of countless species out there that have been in cultivation for a long time. The market was flooded with Venus Fly Traps when that incident occurred. AgriStarts was propagating thousands of them at the time and others were too...

These practices continue to this day and Panax, Sanguinaria, Trillium, as well as Echinacea and countless other species that have gained in popularity are being stripped from our lands by little people as well as by organized poachers. Many species of Echinacea are now endangered, can people wild collecting them differentiate between the sup species? The fact remains that dramatic decreases in populations are occurring and in great part, as a direct result of the collective actions of little people.

The major threat to these types of plants is habitat destruction in my opinion however if we don't think that taking one here and taking one there without asking permission isn't taking a toll and undermining those who might actually be monitoring those populations, we are fooling ourselves. It's habitat destruction in and of itself. The very act we accuse developers of. Venus Fly Traps have been poached by neophytes for decades and it is estimated that the sum total of the neophytes far surpasses that which was poached in one fell swoop by Ted Allan Minton. I am for wild collecting provisional upon one obtaining permission providing a source doesn't exist where the plant could be purchased.

Larry, I think the world of you and I agree with you that this material should get into the hands of responsible nurseries that are going to flood the markets and it is getting into their hands but please let the Powers That Be determine which nursery gets the permit to gather and which doesn't. We need to focus on wild collecting in a sustainable way. Many of these plants have cultural requirements that can't be met by some growers so they die by the thousands. Prohibition didn't work. We're not exactly talking prohibition of plants here given virtually any plant growing in the wild is now available if one is willing to cough up their credit card or check book and pay an appropriate price. Too many people want something for nothing and they aren't willing to pay for their personal plants and this is taking a tremendous toll whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Incidentally, we do not currently ban the sale of rare and endangered plants but we do have safe guards in place that aren't being respected and if we continue with our current practices, the day may come where we do have an all out ban on not only endangered and rare plants but threatened plants too.

It is true we don't have the manpower to plant confiscated plants back so they often die in quarantine or holding areas, sheesh... we hardly have the man power to enforce some of the laws on the books. Plants don't come with VIN numbers on them but DNA is now available which will make it easier to prosecute the heck out of those who are caught. The internet will make it increasingly easier for authorities to catch the small time people because they openly discuss taking these plants and even post photos but we don't have the funds to pursue the little guy yet and may never have the funds to do so. Even if we were in a position to catch more poachers big and small, plants might simply be planted back into the area from which they were poached in the first place leaving them vulnerable yet again. There is a heightened public awareness and many more natural areas are being protected. Populations that are being monitored are often times relocated to protected lands and simply asking permission often flushes out plants that were slated to be moved by conservationists, restorationsists, and environmentalists. Scott, this is going on right now. Where do you think volunteers working in natural areas get our plant material? We most certainly couldn't afford to pay for plants in the quantities we need. But, we are a litigious society and I don't think developers want plant collectors out there traipsing around without permission or the appropriate waivers. Organizations like Wild Ones as well as The Nature Conservancy and countless others participate in well orchestrated plant rescues on a regular basis because they earned the respect of the developers and don't go around bad mouthing them for creating housing.

We can preserve and restore native plants and their associated habitats if we all try our best to educate others and share what we have with anyone who will take it. This floods the markets too.

Who are all these poachers? Who are all these people buying illegal echinaceas? I've been heavily involved in gardening for almost 20 years now. Really into rare and endangered plants for almost ten. I get all the mail-order catalogs. I frequent all the local nurseries. I've worked at several local nurseries for eight years. I have never seen any trafficking of illegal, wild-collected plant stock. I've never once had anyone ask me at a nursery for any of the plants one would suspect of wild digging--trilliums, cypripediums, erythroniums, or whatever else. I have never hiked a nature preserve or wild lands and witnessed any signs of plant poaching. Again, I'm sure it happens, and I suspect it happens more in the south than around here, but I have a really hard time believing there is a gigantic market for these things. Most of the nurseries around here are struggling to make it selling legal stuff because the vast, vast majority of people--and we all know this--either don't care to garden or don't have time for it anymore. And that's just the hybrid teas and coreopsis Moonbeams, let alone some Trillium.

Unless this stuff is going overseas--venus fly traps to Europe, ginseng to Asia--or these pieces of roots that the big box stores sell in plastic bags are all wild collected, I simply don't know where it comes from and where it goes.

And I have never bought the argument that this stuff cannot be brought successfully into cultivation. Certainly, if you dig, tugging and pulling, a wild plant from the network of its and others' roots, you're not going to have any luck popping it into your garden. However, I am very successfully growing dozens of plants (from seed) that are to be found in the wild only above 12,000 feet in the Himalayas--an ecology that couldn't be more unlike SW Ohio. I've got stuff from the desert southwest, and rain-forest plants too. Plants are very forgiving. A skilled gardener can have success with finicky plants from all over the world. That's part of the joy of gardening we all take delight in. Just as I delight in growing rare and endangered plants, propagating them, and sharing them. And, most importantly, telling others about them. Not to encourage them to go on ebay and buy them from some poacher, but to tell their stories and to raise awareness that plants matter too, and are really taking it on the chin.

Scott

I've not been heavily involved in gardening for long and my interest is in native species that are not rare. But, I've seen people take plants from the wild. Less than two weeks ago on my morning walk around the county pond, I saw a woman digging up a small Dogwood. Recently, I saw a woman pulling water plants from the pond and this past Spring I saw a woman with a small spade and a backpack head into the woods and come out with plants sticking out of her backpack. I have an aunt in Newfoundland that's growing a Pitcher plant in her yard that she took from a bog. It happens all the time, Scott. Granted, this is poaching on a small scale, but I'm one little woman in one little town that knows of four instances of poaching this year.

Sherry

I long ago lost count of how many private citizens I have seen doing exactly what Fw87 described above. Sadly, it's not just public lands they are doing it on exclusively either. This collective behavior is rampant. I'm out there, with others and we aren't exactly the Plant Police so we certainly don't walk up behind people with lights and sirens on our heads saying, "Halt, drop that Calopogon". I can't count the number of threads on the Internet where topics such as this come up and it seems to have become a widely accepted practice. If we tell ourselves enough times that it's ok to do it because everybody else seems to be doing it these days does it make it right?

Private citizens aren't my real concern because most are gardeners and if valid issues are shared with them as to the whys and why nots of wild collecting, most people have enough respect for the land to resist the tempatation of "just taking one plant or just gathering a little bit of seed" in favor of supporting those nurseries out there that go to great lengths to make this material readily available to us. It's the ones doing it for profit to be resold to unscrpulous nurseries or selling them off to be boxed up to feed the insatiable overseas market for medicinal and rare plants that really get me upset. There is no reasoning with these people if there's a buck to be made and they could care less what condition they leave the land in as long as they can make that quick buck.

Let's look at what tourists did to the high elevation Haleakala Silverswords. The entire population was almost wiped out by people who all believed a little souvenir of an Argyroxiphium sandwicense seedling or seed to take home was no big deal. I've been to that site. It's a lesser known fact that these particular plants do not like being disturbed so all those people out there trampling their habitat to get that seedling or seed also killed off many parent plants because they didn't know any better. Many signs at the top of that volcano discussing the issues and guess what, people are very careful up there these days and the souvenirs being taken home these days are photos. Why, because there are signs everywhere educating those who now visit the site. Deplorable what happened there but education is reversing the process. There are countless examples out there for the taking.

I don't even want to talk about eBay. I get sick to my stomach. Nepenthes seem to be the big score there. People from impoverished countries where $15 a week feeds, clothes, and puts a roof over the head of an entire family are selling these plants that are stripped from the landscapes. Many don't have the required export permits and I can guarantee those plants don't have phytos but hey, a little walk in the free for the taking Jungle and one can come out with an endless supply of plants to box up and ship out and in no time at all, one can move up into better living quarters. We're buying these plants from them. We've got only ourselves to blame while eBay takes the stance that they are not responsible for goods offered up for auction. Now mind you, there are a lot of ethical sellers on eBay however countless examples of those who aren't ethical abound.

And there is a market for native types of plants out there or else I wouldn't be able to take you to a site where they evidently located their prey and staked it using surveying flags so they could come back under the cloak of darkness with their showels and night vision goggles go dig them up and haul them off probably for a buck a piece. In my e-mail I have saved 3 correspondences from the past few years from people who have contacted me to let them know what I find out there because I'd be well compensated. I've received countless more phone calls from people hinting around that there'd be something in it for me if I just happened to know of any sites out there that might have any of the abc or xyz plants. Pathetic, absolutely pathetic. $1.00 a plant won't do it for me but do the math here with me for a moment... 1.0 x 500-750. Lemme see here, that's $500 to $750 cash that's tax free for one day's work. Not bad, not bad at all being as how that's more than most people make in a week. Get into the right circles folks and you will have many offers from people you wouldn't suspect in your wildest dreams. There are countless examples of people who are morally bankrupt out there to which there is no level too low to stoop.

All I'm saying is that we gardeners can make a difference.

Going back to the original post, here nurseries tend to say their plants aren't wild collected or are from cultivated stocks. Some also use nursery propagated etc but less so these days. Frankly I prefer the statement not wild collected, it's less abiguous.

As for wild collected stock, here in the UK and Europe it's a major problem, whole bluebell woods depleted over night by a couple of people with heavy machinery etc. Some of parts of Europe and the Middle East (and in many other areas of the world) have whole communties that are entirely dependant on wild collecting plants for the world market. There are now schemes in place where the community is taught to conserve the local species, propagate and cultivate plants for the market. Yes at present there is still some use of wild collected seed or root stock but in time they should no longer depend on wild populations for their harvest.

I agree with you about everything including the Haleakala Silverswords; but when I went to Hawaii there were dogs all over the airport looking for people with plants (prior to 9/11) so I know they didn't make it out of Hawaii thru the airports. Make it out of Hawaii I have no doubt that they did, just not thru the airport to the mainland. =)

Really sorry about your Bluebells Baa. That's another popular one over here too.

A Conservation Officer from the Big Island who spent time with my husband and me several months ago told me how some were getting the plant material out. About all I can say is I find it most disturbing.

I didn't notice any dogs at any of the airports the last few times we were there which were both after 9/11 but they really check all luggage and carry ons well these days.

Have you traveled internationally lately dmj? Beagles seem to be the sniffers of choice. You should see them work the passengers and the luggage. They run in and around and right over people's carry ons and oh my do they make a racket howling when they sit down next to a passenger in line boarding. I would hate to be the woman who stuffed all those seeds in her bra is about all I can say. I had no idea those sniffers were so discriminating given they don't feed you all that well on flights any longer and my pockets were loaded with food. All through out Asia this issue is being taken very seriously. Maybe Baa can comment about what they're doing recently throughout the UK.

"All I'm saying is that gardeners can make a difference"

Which is exactly what I'm saying too. Take Mespilus canescens, for example. This is a native medlar that until 1990, no one even knew existed. It is confined to a 20 acre patch of 24 trees. The site is overrun with Lonicera maackii, the trees have not reproduced once in the years they have been studied, and the water table in that region is changing. Roping these trees off, letting no one in or out, and allowing nobody pieces or seeds (if they existed) of these trees (which to my understanding is more or less what CITES would have us do) would only spell certain doom for these plants. Allowing responsible nurserymen access to some cuttings, from which they can make many more plants, and getting these things into arboretums and gardens is very likely the greatest thing we can do for this species. In good soil, carefully tended, the trees will hopefully thrive and produce fruit. From there, perhaps the plant can achieve a measured resurrection.

As for selling illegally dug plants for a buck a piece, and selling 500-750 of them, man, I just don't know. I know a lot of gardeners, I've been to a lot of gardens, and I have just never seen anyone or anything that suggests a great movements of plants like this. The only thing I have ever seen that resembles this are those racks of woodland plant roots sold at ridiculously low prices at Lowe's and Home Depot. Usually the packaging is spare to the point of ludicrous, and the involved nursery is someplace I've never heard of. If these are the folks doing this, then here are some truths. A) 99.98% of people buying them are doing so only because the packages promise some "wildflower," they are doing their annual garden shopping, and the plants are cheap. It's an impulse, "why not" kind of purchase. They are not selecting these plants because they think the plants might be rare, endangered, or anything else other than a "flower" they can grow in their garden. They are also wholly ignorant that the plants were possibly illegally dug from the wild. B) The chances that these bits of dried up roots that have been in clear plastic bags for God knows how long will ever grow is zero to none at all. C) That such outright exposure via national retail outlets is brazen to say the least and ought to be carefully investigated by officials. D) These are the very sellers that could be destroyed by flooding the market with tissue cultured, good quality plants. E) And, if educating the public by way of signs on mountaintops stops certain practices, then educating the public on this issue should work too. Certainly, educating the retail outlets might have an effect also.

As for the guys collecting for ridiculous Asian medicinal markets, or for that matter, equally ridiculous European carniverous plant markets, penalties such as time served and an $8,000 fine are an embarrassment and a joke. If the law, and judges, don't take this seriously, then why should anyone else? You could lose your home, your cars, your kids, and do twenty years of jail for growing ten plants of marijuana on your property, but for digging up irreplaceable endangered or threatened plants, which are our natural heritage, you get a slap on the wrist? Come on.

I think where you and I differ on this, Equil, is that I have a huge amount of faith and trust and hope in the ability of really good nurserymen and gardeners to responsibly conserve nature and even further it. I think that for a gardener to even to get to the level of gardening it takes to seek out and desire many of these plants, almost (not quite, but almost) guarantees a level of responsibility. I'm not saying that all gardeners will succeed with all plants, but the more irons there are in the fire, the better hope there is that many plants will have a place to exist.

Scott

This message was edited Sep 23, 2006 9:18 PM

Scott, there are only 23 mature specimens of those plants known to exist in the world. The owner of the property already granted a conservation easement. Cuttings have already been taken of the species because although the plants are flowering, they aren't fruiting. What happened? We know the area was former prairie. Nobody knows the full story just yet. Remove them from that environment and nobody will ever know. Those plants are best left right where they are in that little ecosystem "confined to a 20 acre patch of 24 trees" where they were discovered. Their odds of survival over the long run are much greater under the protection of the Arkansas Natural Heritage Commission. Help is on the way for those plants although it would be a little premature to let the nursery industry in and who knows, maybe the Mespilus canescens will become the next Metasequoia glyptostroboides thanks to our nurserymen?

You aren't going to see the great movement of plants in home landscapes and gardens. You're gonna see it in natural areas. Next time you come here, I'll take you over to my site that was being monitored for Calopogons. There were approximately 300 plants there. All gone this year. Spade marks left in the ground. Bye bye. All that's left may be a seed bank from which a handful may germinate next year. Volo Bog is a classic. I can take you over there too, the photo below from May is about all that's left of thousands of this species that were documented as having existed in the 50's and 60's. Down to right around 5 plants now. Whoopie.

I'm growing local genotype for the County that I purchased myself for reintroduction. Call it a donation. My goal is to turn over 10 plants.

Regarding the contents of those plastic baggies... eek, I question the actual origin of many given most of the bags don't state much other than nursery grown. So what happened? Hmm, lemme guess. The plants were wild harvested and transferred to some middleman who planted them out for about a year in his/her nursery then dug them back up again and stuffed them in those little plastic baggies that then ended up on those racks being sold as nursery grown. Semantics. This is how it should be done-
http://www.agristarts.com/about_us.htm

I have a lot of really good faith in anyone but poachers. And that includes many nurseries, state and county agencies with dedicated volunteers, as well as common gardeners like me and you. You said it best, "And, if educating the public by way of signs on mountaintops stops certain practices, then educating the public on this issue should work too". It's all about education. It's a snowball effect, when one person voluntarily stops and frowns upon the practice, others will stop. Better yet, tell our children.

I love this thread even though I feel like a ping pong ball while I'm reading.

UUallace - What does this mean? "Reforestation had been a great idea, until TESRA banned taxonomy and science." ?

If tissue culturing plants is a viable practice, why is it not being done?

Are poachers private hoarders? The native plant market (let alone rare natives) certainly doesn't seem to be commercially important.

date a tissue culture guy--not possible/and or impractable/cost prohibitive on some plants.

One toss in comment- we don't have a labeling law requiring companies to disclose their sources of plant material.

TESRA = Threatened and Endangered Species Recovery Act

In my humble opinion, TESRA is in serious need of meaningful reform or its existence will continue to be counterproductive and ineffective. Sooner or later the “best available data” standard is going to have to be dealt with. Could we not talk about TESRA please? I suspect Larry feels the same way Scott and me do about those laws and I could see this thread ending up political.

The costs of TC can be a force with which to contend however some nurseries are doing quite fine and many are enjoying profits. Not all plants lend themselves to TC.

Has anyone used our PlantScout? I found it this year and love it. Many of the "at-risk" plants we love to grow are readily available. Check this out and all I did was plug in the Latin name of plants that are frequently poached-
Goldenseal (Hydrastis canadensis)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Hydrastis+canadensis&submit=Search
Trillium (Trillium spp.)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Trillium
Blue cohosh (Caulophyllum thalictroides)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Caulophyllum+thalictroides
Osha (Ligusticum porteri)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Aletris+farinosa&submit=Search
Bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Sanguinaria+canadensis
False unicorn root (Chamaelirium luteum)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Chamaelirium+luteum
Lady’s slipper orchid (Cypripedium spp.)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Cypripedium
Venus flytrap (Dionaea muscipula)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Dionaea+muscipula
Black cohosh (Cimicifuga racemosa)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.php?search_text=Cimicifuga+racemosa
American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius)
http://davesgarden.com/ps/search.phpsearch_text=Panax+quinquefolius

Way cool, eh?

Quoted:`
(b) Development of Recovery Plans- (1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), the Secretary, in developing recovery plans, shall, to the maximum extent practicable, give priority to those endangered species or threatened species, WITHOUT REGARD TO TAXONOMIC CLASSIFICATION, that are most likely to benefit from such plans, particularly those species that are, or may be, in conflict with construction or other development projects or other forms of economic activity.

`(E) Estimates of time and costs pursuant to subparagraph (A)(iii), and identification of the least costly alternatives pursuant to subparagraph (D)(ii), are NOT REQUIRED TO BE BASED ON the best available SCIENTIFIC DATA.

Having followed this thread with interest for the past couple of days with torn emotions as several sides have been presented, I think I have finally landed on the side of Decumbent. I have worked in the high-end garden center and nursery business for 15+ years and was somewhat dumfounded by the original question. While I don't look at each tag on plants that come in, I can't think of any of the plants that we receive that have either of the two phrases on them. It has made me curious and I think I will go and check them tomorrow to see if it does appear on any of the tags. What really stood out to me however was the following:

*Has anyone used our PlantScout? I found it this year and love it. Many of the "at-risk" plants we love to grow are readily available. Check this out and all I did was plug in the Latin name of plants that are frequently poached-
Goldenseal (Hydrastis canadensis) *

While I don't know a whole lot about perennials and annuals, I think that I can safely say that most of the 10 plants that were listed after the quote are so uncommon in the nursery trade as to make the merest blip on the radar screen when all added together. Here is why I think this: Take any of the 10 listed Latin names and google them. The top 20 results are going to consist of documentary types of sites and unfortunately, herbal medicine related pages. As Decumbent has said, the vast majority of consumers don't care about plants outside of their ability to increase their property value and make things look nice for a long period of the growing season. If it doesn't have a flower on it, they probably aren't going to buy it. So, I have concluded (perhaps prematurely) that the aging hippies are getting aches and pains and looking for some magic herbs to cure them. A leftover sentiment from their young and less responsible days. Given the popularity of herbal medicine today, I find this hypothesis far more plausible. Actually, I'm just echoing what Dr. Dean Edell has commented on in similar terms so the idea isn't entirely mine. I do welcome evidence to the contrary and hope that we can get the senseless plunder of our natural resources under control.

Regards,
Ernie

Say Ernie, as you have worked in the high-end garden center and nursery business for 15+ years (woodies I presume), I can certainly appreciate why you would feel that the nursery industry should be able to have first dibs at Mespilus canescens. I can see where an incredible demand for that plant by collectors as well as hobbyists could be created.

I believe that Mespilus canescens is going to be beyond challenging to propagate because it isn't currently bearing seed and it sure doesn't seem as if anyone knows enough about this species yet. This plant has never before been cultivated. Given the plants aren't fruiting, my question would be when one would take a cutting from this plant? Some plants simply can't be propagated via cuttings while others can be propagated if the cutting is taken at the right time of year but even then the parent plant is left open to pathogens. Far too many variables present but undetected. I truly believe this plant should be made available to the nursery industry to flood the market... just not right now. There are simply too few of them and the area in which they have been found growing is largely agriculture as opposed to being the prairie it once was. Who knows, maybe it will be learned by the engineers that our earlier quest to drain wetlands to create farmland is at the root and perhaps the simple removal or collapse of the labyrinth of drain tiles in the local vicinity might trigger the seed production of these plants. One thing is for sure, that site is in need of some good forensic ecology and it's going to take a team approach to figure out how best to get these plants into cultivation to be enjoyed by the public as well as to be used in future restoration projects.

Hmmm,

There is a tremendous market out there for American Ginger alone and it is my understanding that most of it does go overseas. You might want to go to your local research station and do a simple comparison for Trillium for your area. What was present just 25 years ago compared to what is present today. Where did they all go? I bought 400 just a couple years ago. I made sure mine weren't field collected by ordering mine from a native plant sale where all growers were screened. Does everyone take the time to do this? My girlfriend ordered a couple hundred herself. We are representative of a growing number of gardeners who are trying to reclaim our land by removing invasive species and planting back natives. What if all of us started buying from all the cheap suppliers?

If "the vast majority of consumers don't care about plants outside of their ability to increase their property value and make things look nice for a long period of the growing season", then why are VFTs in little plastic coffins literally flying off the shelves at the likes of WalMart and Lowes and why are the contents of those plastic baggies and little boxes filled with sawdust flying off the racks from chain nurseries as well as Home Depots and Menards? Everybody wants to grow a VFT and everybody wants "wildflowers" growing in their yards these days because demand was created. Aggressive marketing campaigns created that demand yet failed to acknowledge many of these plants require specific growing conditions to not only survive but thrive. Needless to say, many die which creates more demand to replace that which did not survive. I think the consumers Scott was talking about are those who are purchasing plants for their home landscapes. That’s one group. Let’s now toss in the "aging hippies" who are buying them for their herb gardens as well as indirectly buying them at their corner health food store as well as from pharmacies where these plants are sold as herbal remedies and dietary supplements. Now let’s toss in the overseas market. Now toss in the collectors who just want them. It is the sum total of the collective behaviors of all of these groups, as well as groups not specifically mentioned, that are systematically and methodically whittling away at our natural resources.

We can't currently get the senseless plunder under control because we don't have the resources to do so. Education is about all we have left right now.

Native herbaceous perennials and annuals are at greatest risk and there are countless sites out there that discuss this issue. I don't think woodies are as easily dug up and stuck in one's under garments or carted off in a back pack or a purse and most people don't try to get out of the country with them but I'm sure there have been those who have tried.

One thing is for sure, nature is in our hands and none of us are all that comfortable with that responsibility.

I do have a few thoughts prompted by Equil's and Ernie's posts. In response:

"I can certainly appreciate why you would feel that the nursery industry should be able to have first dibs at Mespilus canescens. I can see where an incredible demand for that plant by collectors as well as hobbyists could be created... I believe that Mespilus canescens is going to be beyond challenging to propagate because it isn't currently bearing seed and it sure doesn't seem as if anyone knows enough about this species yet. This plant has never before been cultivated. Given the plants aren't fruiting, my question would be when one would take a cutting from this plant? Some plants simply can't be propagated via cuttings while others can be propagated if the cutting is taken at the right time of year but even then the parent plant is left open to pathogens." --Equil

I strongly feel that the nursery industry should have (if not first dibs) dibs at M. canescens. I do know of a VERY responsible nursery that is already selling this plant. In fact, I just recieved three very small rooted cuttings last week. And, of about fifteen or twenty different species of plants that I wanted from their listing, they actually only could fill my order for five. The Mespilus, happily being one of them. So, I do not see an incredible demand for that plant EVER existing. Believe me, I have tried with all my heart to interest buyers in unusual woody plants. The demand IS JUST NOT THERE...especially when it comes to woody plants. If Joe Homeowner is going to plant a bush or a tree in his yard, he wants to know: 1) It will not die; and 2) What exactly will it look like. Hence, the strange obsession and huge demand for Bradford Pears and Red Maples. Only those weirdos and misfits who haunt internet web sites such as this, and only a small fraction of them, share my interest in rare, endangered, unique, and/or genetically bizarre woody plants.

In regards to that plant and its current condition, the one thing we know is it is in trouble. Holding our breaths and hoping things get better is not enough. Restoring and preserving the site is vital, and it is--to some extent being done, but we cannot surround it with armed guards 24/7, and we cannot ensure that any number of natural threats will not destroy the colony in situ. For instance, a tornado, a fire, a flood, the afore-mentioned change in the water table, are big things that could happen. Poaching could happen. And a whole lot of little things could be just as detrimental--insects, disease, deer predation, whatever. I truly think the most prudent thing to do is to protect the site as much as feasible and to get material away from there. Cuttings obviously, seemed to have worked, and almost certainly grafting onto Common Medlar root stock would also succeed. These plants can then go to interested Arboretums, first and foremost, and then to the very few nutball plant geeks such as myself who would really like to try them. (A quick side note, and I would really like other opinions on this, but I worry that many arboretums are disappointingly staid, ruled by committee, straddled by bureacracy and self-inflicted rules, big institutions that are too often slow to react. Personally, I think nurseries and individuals are much more nimble in reaction to ecological needs and in many cases are just as botanically qualified. In other words, there seems to me to be more passion in the private sector.)

"perhaps the simple removal or collapse of the labyrinth of drain tiles in the local vicinity might trigger the seed production of these plants."

"...or simply planting them in arboretums or gardens in excellent soil, carefully tended, and removed from the myriad of plants in competition that wild plants must face. It works for apples, cherries, pawpaws, persimmons. I can't think of a single fruiting plant that does not become exponentially more productive when given the beneficial treatment of good husbandry."

"You might want to go to your local research station and do a simple comparison for Trillium for your area. What was present just 25 years ago compared to what is present today. Where did they all go?"

Not to say by any means that some terrible wholesale poaching does not happen, but there could very well be other reason many of these plants have disappeared, or are close to disappearing. The hundred fold increase in the deer herd is the first thing that leaps to my mind. Climate change is another. Overuse of green space (and the constant trammeling that entails) is a third. The relatively unstudied but worrisome effect of exotic earthworms might be another reason worth exploring. But no matter. Whatever is causing the depletion, it is all the more reason to get "at risk" plants into the trade (legally and ethically propagated, for sure). In gardens (and--because of a small but constant demand by gardeners--in nurseries) means that there are just that many more places these plants will exist--protected from deer, away from ATVs, and, indeed, away from poachers.

"I bought 400 (Trillium) just a couple years ago. I made sure mine weren't field collected by ordering mine from a native plant sale where all growers were screened. Does everyone take the time to do this?"

You are the only person I have ever heard of who has bought 400 Trillium (especially in one felled swoop). I know there are a lot of people who are doing what they can to restore their land. Interest in this seems to be especially great in the Chicagoland region, it seems like to me. In particular, I'm very excited by the increased interest and use of prairie species in American landscapes, but I think it is very few and far between the number of people who have the intelligence, who have the passion, and who have the money to invest in this level of devotion. But, I would say that--almost to a person--that those who do probably care very deeply about the source of the material and screen their suppliers as carefully as you.

"...then why are VFTs in little plastic coffins literally flying off the shelves at the likes of WalMart and Lowes and why are the contents of those plastic baggies and little boxes filled with sawdust flying off the racks from chain nurseries as well as Home Depots and Menards? Everybody wants to grow a VFT and everybody wants "wildflowers" growing in their yards these days because demand was created"

I apologize, but what are VFTs? I haven't been able to figure that out.

True, I think a lot of people want to buy "wildflowers," indeed. I think the term "wildflower" in general has that almost visceral, universal response in people that the terms "love," or "family," or "dreams" have. The problem is that a tiny fraction of "wildflower" customers know or care to know what a real "wildflower" is, which is why those cans of seeds containing mainly thistle, Queen Anne's Lace, and Bachelor's Buttons sell by the case at Lowe's, Home Depot, and Walmart, and the really carefully mixed true wildflower species are to be found only via mailorder from knowledgeable and passionate nurseries. And those plastic pieces of roots are not selling because anyone expects to obtain some rare and endangered Trillium, they are selling because the buyers purchase impulsively completely out of ingnorance.

"Aggressive marketing campaigns created that demand yet failed to acknowledge many of these plants require specific growing conditions to not only survive but thrive."

What marketing campaigns? I have never seen a marketing campaign apart from a tacky rack of plastic bags, ridiculous tabloid ads in the backs of newspaper supplements, or maybe at most a quarter page ad in gardening magazines. The marketing I am most familiar with is the information given in quality mail-order catalogs, which is very focused on cultural conditions and in many cases tends to be the most readable and informative material on many of these plants. Perhaps the greatest cause of a demand for wildflowers and yet an ignorance of what they are and how to grow them comes from this baseline indoctrination we all now have in general ecology, and a very real desire this has spurred in most people to do something "green," but a failure of education to take that a step further and instill in people that doing something "green" requires a little more attention to detail and responsibility.

"So, I have concluded (perhaps prematurely) that the aging hippies are getting aches and pains and looking for some magic herbs to cure them. A leftover sentiment from their young and less responsible days. Given the popularity of herbal medicine today, I find this hypothesis far more plausible." --from Ernie

The more we've discussed this (and I have thoroughly enjoyed this lively debate with my friend Equil and everyone else), the more I find this plausibe too. This, and that those hapless plastic baggies probably are at least 95% dug-from-the-wild plants.

"It is the sum total of the collective behaviors of all of these groups, as well as groups not specifically mentioned, that are systematically and methodically whittling away at our natural resources."

Amen. Excluding, perhaps, the collecting behaviors of serious gardeners and responsible nurseries who are committed to the preservation and perseverance of plants.

Scott






This message was edited Sep 24, 2006 7:37 PM

This message was edited Sep 24, 2006 7:46 PM

I don't have a whole lot to add after Scott. One thing that I have thought about was the trends of the major wholesalers and retailers in the Green Industry. The trade is abuzz about the buying habits and lifestyles of us youngsters (Gen X'ers.) We don't wanna do it ourself, spawning the phrase "do it for me." Also, we aren't interested in lots of different kinds of plants, just ones that will work. We aren't garden hobbyists, at least not yet. Personally, I think that this varies by region of the country. We have and use credit cards, alot! We will refinance our homes to get some more $$$$ to create the lifestyle we want. We are the emerging market and the Boomers are beginning the downward trend in buying as they age. Depending on how much the industry buys into that, things will be come more homogeneous, branded, marketeable on a wide scale. Almost every single industry analyst/consultant is saying all of the above, or at least the ones that I have crossed paths with. "Cut the bottom 20% of your inventory for immediately increased profits" is flying around like bullets in a shootout. Another phrase I've heard used: "Reduce your choices for better sales. Some people become overwhelmed and leave without buying." This really breaks my plant loving heart! I would have to say that I would not buy the Mespilus for a retail outlet as it is too esoteric. Give me Double Rainbow Knockout by the hundred please! One note on the native stand of Mespilus: I wonder if they aren't fruiting due to allelopathy caused by the Lonicera?
Personally, I think that specialty plants are going to going to be relegated to online and mail-order vendors in short order. There probably will always be a few wholesale nurseries that will grow them on large and sell to retailers but one will have to go to a place like Gee's to find cool plants in larger sizes on a consistent basis. This ok with plant-geek-me since Gee's is only a 6 hours from my house.
I was not aware that the Big Boxes are selling wildflower roots in cheapy little baggies. This could be looked into if it is found to be suspicious as it sounds. The boxes are not overly-scrupulous, nor run by friends-of-plants like us and not likely to even know to question the vendors. As far as VFT (Venus Fly Traps-took me 5 minutes to figure it out) and wildflower baggies go: Supposedly, HGTV is fairly responsible for a lot of the interest in DIY gardening. If we can get them to extol the merits of plants that are commonly available in the trade and enlighten viewers to destruction of plants in the wild, it could be a good start.
Equil: I applaud your restoring of your property. I really enjoy going to the Starved Rock area and admiring all of the Trilliums and other wildflowers that grow in the canyons and woods.
Scott- I don't know enough about how arboretums work but I think that there has been, at least to some extent, a shift away from the classic arboretum of growing many types of plants to a more "pleasureable experience" based concept. This is probably more true in the small arboretums than the large ones. The big ones are still into the research end of things big-time but even they have been "putting on a show" to generate foot traffic and hence, revenue. To some extent I say the above based on a fairly active visitation of Midwestern Arboretums and this past summer, eastern ones. Show the industry how money can be made OR.... get the plant geeks that run some of them on board and have them work the bugs out of whatever it is trying to be accomplished.

Well, I just spent too much time typing when I thought I didn't have anything to say. I've learned a fair amount from this discussion!

Best Regards,
Ernie

You bought one already! You lucky rat! I want to buy a few. How did they ultimately end up propagating it? Last I heard they were going in to clear out the invasives because it was believed the allelopathic chemicals of the Lonicera were inhibiting development. You sent me scrambling upstairs to find all of the notes I had on that species from a convention a few years ago. My how time flies.

Well, see... the nursery industry did get their hands on the material and rightfully so because now I will get my grubby little hands on some sooner or later but... I doubt seriously if it happened before the scientists had their go at that 22 acres. It's in the best interests of conservation to get that material into the hands of nurseries as soon as possible for a multitude of reasons. Nurseries before Arboretums in my book. Seriously, in a situation like this please tell me you don't think the nursery industry should have gotten first dibs? Say it ain't so. I caught that little (if not first dibs)! Deer can be taken care of with exclusion fencing and culling. No need to say any more on this topic because you know what I think of Bambi beginning to determine which species survive and which don't. Fires were a part of the prairie ecosystem and all too frequently we are learning the absence of fire is playing heavily into the equation. I'm the earthworm queen, remember. Those are easily enough controlled but it does take manpower. I honestly don't know of one nursery out their addressing the earthworm issues but biologists are. Not much that can be done about overuse of greenspace in and around that area now and we most certainly are dealing with climate change. Just out of curiosity, they found drain tiles throughout that entire area didn't they? Just my guess. If you don't know the answer, would you go and ask please. Last but not least, I have never encountered any tree poaching. I have seen shrubs destroyed because collectors took cuttings though. I don't think there would have been a need to surround that area with armed guards but I could think of a few areas in need of that 24/7 type of protection but then I'm still hot about my Calopogon tuberosus site.

I know a lot of people have concerns about Arboretums but I don't. Every entity out their doing their best after the plant material can be spread around ensures the survival of the species. I truly hate to sound cliché but caring is sharing. Something you personally do very well.

Don't get me going on those canned wildflower mixes. I am learning how few people there are out there who know the difference between native and naturalized.

Gotta disagree with the second half of this, "Personally, I think nurseries and individuals are much more nimble in reaction to ecological needs and in many cases are just as botanically qualified." The more I know, the less I know. I can certainly see the benefits of a team approach with experts in all 9 of the associated fields present to be in a position to descend upon a property like that. Gather that data and do it fast and move some of that plant material out for just the reasons you mentioned.

One thing I don't do is hold my breath and hope that things are going to be better, but then you don't either. There will always be people who do though.

VFT = Venus Fly Trap (Dionaea muscipula)
99% of the people I know think that's a tropical plant. They water them with tap water, trigger their traps with straws and tines of forks, and deprive them of their required dormancy and they die.

Aggressive marketing campaigns... do you need glasses and/or hearing aids like me? Gosh, I just opened up a pack of coupons and there were at least 5 ads in there. That doesn’t count a flyer stuck under the flag to my mailbox yesterday or the baggie stuck to my front door last week. We are being bombarded by marketing campaigns for plants.

I agree with almost everything you said except…
Scientists first!
Then nurseries!

Hey Ernie, come on over by me and I'll show you some natural areas that will knock your socks off. Have gps, will travel.

Missed this-

Don't you dare do that! I have a credit card. I'm armed and dangerous.

Seriously, there might be some validity to that statement. I've seen people who I have gone shopping with struggle. Maybe it would be easier for people to purchase based on groupings? I can't tell you how many people go into a store looking for shade or sun. The tags with all those circles denoting sun, part sun, or shade all on the same tag confuse people.

No, a miscommunication there. Definitely science gets first dibs, nurseries second.

Scott

Wow what a thread!
Great ideas and views. I always assume nursery propagated means not collected from the wild. I take the statement litterally. That it is propagated in a nursery.
As far as collecting goes, I have no problem collecting seed from the wild, but do not collect plants. However, there is one time I wish i had collected a plant. Years ago, in a field behind my in-laws house there grew scads of asclepias tuberosa, all the usual orange colored flowers. There was one plant that was a deep purple. It totally blew me away. Next thing I knew, a developer came and plowed that entire area for housing...so there goes a possible genetic anomoly.
Michael

I am not as bad as Scott. (I mean Decumbent, rather than my wife). I only bought 100 Trilliums. Also 100 Goodyera. A few have been planted in rural Indiana (Scott Road). Now that the drought is over a few more will be planted in a heavily wooded strip near here.
The corporate Tissue Culture labs will remain propagating easily sold plants. Many humans are now doing TC in their kitchen. The hope for rare plants lies with the hobbyists.
Larry

I've got some orchids being tissue cultured here.

Check this display out from Lowes. They said they sell like hotcakes and that this is their fifth set of refill trays-

Just like candy at end caps. Every kid going by is probably tugging on their parent's sleeve to buy one-

Let's take a closer look at the $4.99 plants-

Let's take a closer look at the $9.99 plants-

These are all TC plants or grown from seed because I happen to know the supplier but... take a close look at this-