well i put the koi in my pond and they are all dead even the goldfish that has been in there for a long time,the water is clear,i do have some algae but in the upper part of the pond ,in the tubs that are flowing from the top to bottom,i dont know if they arent getting enough oxygen or if the algae is doing this,the pump that came with the liner,i had goldfish in there for almosr 1 year with no problems,should i buy a test kit and see whatis going on? or a bigger pump,or more oxygenating plants?please i need help now!!!!!!!!!! i cant put any more fish in there until i know for sure what is going on!!!!!! thxs everyone
moretz
need help NOW!!!!!!! please
How big is your pump and how big is your pond? How many fish did you add and how long did it take for them to die? Having this info might help people answer your question. It never hurts to test the water even when things look fine.
or should i drain the water out and start over? dont know if i might got a desease from the bluegill being in there or not,i do have abig frog/toad in there that is as big as your hand,no kiding,would it have something to do with my fish dieing?i know that isent spelled right lol but i am not worried about my spelling,please anyone that can help please lmk ASAP!!!!!!!!!!
oh Moretz, I am so sorry! How big is your pond and how many koi (what size)? did you put in? The only thing that comes to mind is you might have overloaded your ponds and pump's capacity for oxygen. Unless someone unknown to you might have used an insecticide or herbicide that drifted over? (the county or neighbor) Or kids from the neighborhood doing bad things? This isn't uncommon...The algae is a good sign that your pond is operating correctly. (long as it is a little bit.) Please keep us posted...sue
i dont have a clue how big it is but the pond is 3' wide by 6' long by 18" maybe a little more deep,i had 5 fish 4 it took 3-4 days to die and the goldfish i have had in there since last feb.
there isent any scares on the fish either,you know like something trying to eat it and cant because its too big,so i dont have a clue.the pump that i have has been the same one i have used for this since feb, and havent had any trouble until i put the bluegill in there is when i started noticing any trouble in the pond,so i am very confussed and need help.i will get me a pond test kit today going to petsmart anyway but not getting fish for pond until i figure out what is going on
thxs moretz
In my opinion a test kit is a MUST. The frog and algea most likely are not the issue.
When I see a post of a fast fish kill two thing come to mind as the most likely cause :
1) not enough oxygen - which can be too much fish-not enough water or aeration
2) a PH crash... if your water is not buffered with some type of KH buffer to stabilize PH you can lose all your fish in one day... I am of the opinion that it is not as important to have your PH at one specific level but it is important to prevent PH swings up and down the scale.
My water here in upstate SC is very low in natural ph - so I use baking soda as a ph stabilizer - here is where the water kit comes into play as you can test and know when to add more.
I feel that disease is an unlikely culprit for that type of fish kill. Even if you empty all the water - can you disinfect everything and all the plants ? I would do a partial water change...buy a water test kit...get your pH and KH right.... and then in a few days add a couple of 50 cents goldfish.
Based on what I have read... your pond is not best suited for koi... I might suggest you stick with goldfish and shubunkins (which are colorful goldfish)..
My main pond is about 7 x 13 x 24 inches deep and I wont put koi in it.
what do you use to do the KH buffer?
well the koi that i put in there was 1/2"-2" long so i am not sure if that was the right size to start out with,should they have been bigger or what? thxs
moretz
ok looks like my PH an alkalinity is low,so what do i add to make it where it needs to be and how much
moretz
p.s. see pic
how often do i test my pond to make sure it is safe for the fish?
thxs for all the help
moretz
Moretz; Sorry we were over to the church all morning and we also had a pot luck. So didn't get back to you right away.
I would be inclined to go along with Charlottda. Oxygen. depravation. as your goldfish died as well. I haven't done the math on the gallons but the dimentions tell me small. when you have a small pond, 100-300gal add fish and a hot day. Oxygen can be depleated very fast. Do you have any kind of airation, a water fall that does some splashing? Or a fountian. that will at carry bubbles down into the water??
With our temp swings up here we don't have as much of a problem , But I still make sure to have plenty of agitation in the water to help airation.
Oxygenators are usually great as well but if you have an over abundence it can also create oxygen depleation over the night hours, as plants add oxygen in the daytime. and take in oxygen at night. Not usually a problem. Unless they are in excess. But now lets try takeing this step by step. The size of the fish should have been ok. I am uncertian of the number that you put in. That could be a problem. I was going to ask about aclmateing the koi to your pond. but I don't think that would be the problem, as you already hade a goldfish in there and it died too. I am going to ask a dumb question. did you introduce any kind of algaeside?? Just a thought!
I will do some searching and some math and get back to the problem.
Still don't have a 100% answer But was checking on algaecide. If your warer supply is from a lake/ Resovoir it is possible to have traces of copper sulfate in the water. Minute amounts should not hurt the fish. unless you have a high rate of evaporation. Which in turn could bring up the level of the toxicity of copper sulphate. I just added this as we should all be aware of this possibilty. However you said you were in the boonies so probably means well water, eliminateing the copper sulphate situation from the water supply.
Surface area of your pond. 3" wide 6" long aproximate. 18 square ft. Carry load for a 10" koi is 20 square ft. I recon therefore that if you add the length of all the fish. you might be over loading the pond. Was the temp rather high during the period that you lost the fish. and is the pond in full sun? Koi and Bluegill are relativly a cold water fish. So as well as a cold temp shutoff from feeding there is also a shutoff on the heat side of the scale.
Now I forgot the exact temp, Gears slipping huh. I will throw out a figure of aproximatly 89 degrees water temp you should also stop feeding koi. One other thing I just read is that the koi food should not be stored at room temp for longer than 90 days unless it is in plastic bags or kept in a lided container Moisture and heat will cause deterioration and toxic substances can be produced by the growth of microbial contaminats. So larger quanities of dry foods should be stored in cool dry conditions. Food stored in high humidity and temps will lose a minimum of 50 % of its initial vitamin C content. Vitamin B6 and B 2 are also susceptible to a rapid nutient destruction during extended storage.It is reccomeded that if you have larger amounts that aren't used up in in 90 days it should be stored in a freezer. This is stuff that I didn't know either. I just thought it was dry. Although I have been puting it in plastic containers with lids, intending to keep it fresh. also to keep the cat out of the bag. He seems to like the pellets. I usually get a 25 lb. bag at the feed store to keep the cost down. I think now that I will put the other containers, that I'm not useing, in the refridgerator that is in the garage.
Just thought of one other thing. You don't by chance have any honey-suckle growing nearby, that is a trick that some indians used. They would scatter honeysuckle blossoms on the water and it would bring up a number of fish to floating as they would be disoriented. I have a kiwi vine that needs to be moved, one time a branch was in the water and I had 5 of my big koi floating. It took me about an hour to flush their gills with fresh water so they could stay stable and swim, not float. I lost one that time.
nope pond is 3' wide by 6' long by 18' deep yes pond is in almost allday but like i said i have had the goldfish and comet in therewhen we had the 110 heat index and no problems,the test shows that the PH and alkiline are low.i have a honeysuckle but it in on the other side of the road so i dont think that is it but i dont know lol that is why i am asking ?'s because i am stund about this.what do i use on to raise the PH level and raise the alkiline? and how often do i test my pond to see if it is doing what it is suppose to do? thxs so much for helping me
moretz
This may be a bit out in left field, but where are you getting your water from? Is it from your well, or is it by some chance city-type water? I'm asking because out here, our water is treated, but they've switched from chlorine (which evaporates naturally from the water, and very quickly) to chloramine, which does not evaporate or lessen unless it is treated with a specific neutralizer - and unless it's treated, it's deadly to fish. Of course, if you're using well water, nevermind!
Sure hope you get an answer soon.
Chris - THGA
Did they die at night? This is not a morbid question I assure you. If they died at night it is oxygen.
Edited to add...
So sorry about your fish Moretz :-( I do hope this gets figured out and at least you can start over.
This message was edited Aug 28, 2006 5:10 AM
i dont know but i guess they did i know the goldfish died in the day time
yes i have well water but it does have iron in it,
by what the test showed me it is the PH level and the alkiline that is low,i read somewehre that you can use baking soda to raise the PH and use vinegar to lower PH is this true and if so how much should i use? plmk and thxs
moretz
We are all trying to make "educated" guesses :)
I vote for a PH crash...KH and alkalinity are basically the same thing... if it were me.... I would add regular baking soda... ( it will raise your ph but thats okay) Baking soda should NOT raise your ph over 8.5 and more importantly it will "buffer" the ph by raising the KH value.
I dont measure any more but if it was my pond... I would add about 1/2 cup of baking soda right now - just dump it in.
Wait about 4 hours or so and test water. ph will most likely rise but pay attention to the alkalinity.... keep adding baking soda in 1/4 cup increments every 2-4 hours until your alkalinity is good.
I cant tell you the numbers right now - its Monday and they are not in my head :)
Though there may be times to use them... I do not personally hold with mixtures to raise and lower PH... I think good buffer in the key...
It is not as important exactly what the ph is (as long as it is in a life sustaining range that is).. more importantly in water that is not well buffered (low KH value) ph will swing from high to low over night and that will kill fish.
I test my water only monthly now... I really should do it every week or so but I dont as I have learned a pattern for what my pond usually needs.
well i took a sample of the water to petsmart and they told me that my Ph level is 6.2-6.4 and that wouldnt be low enough to kill the fish,but i thought the PH was suppose to be like 7.0 and no lower?they think i got an internal parasite from the bluegill and that is what killed the fish since the bluegill didnt die,see that is what i thought was killing my goldfish but i was wrong apparently,they suggest to drain the whole pond out and clean it with 60% vinegar 40%water and start all over again,so i guess that is what i will do since the only thing i have in there is the plants now,which i think would be a great idea anyway what do you all think,plmk and thxs for all your help
moretz
OK... I didnt realize that the bluegill was still alive in there. I'm pretty careful with quarantine of new fish because I am afraid of fishie disease... not my area of expertise....maybe some others have thoughts :)
ok i need some more help,
they want me to clean the pond out and start over, my question is:
what about the plants can i clean them with something to get the perisite out of the roots of the plants? or should i throw them away and start over with them? i will on the water hycanths and the water celery but i need to know about my lilies,pitcher plants, papyrus etc, plmk and thxs for helping me
moretz
Moretz... Though you may have the exeption there... there is NO WAY - I would take the word of someone at Petmart in regards to anything to do with my aquariums inside or pond outside. On a rare occasion I have found a very knowledgeable fish person on many occasions they dont know squat.
I dont know anything about fish disease.. I've stayed with less expensive fish and tried to be careful of anything new I introduce.
Hopefully we may have some fish experts here on the forum who can help.
well what else would have killed the fish and not the bluegill? any idea?they said that my ph was low and that it wasent low enough to kill the fish,so i am trying to figure out what i need to do here,that makes since to me though any suggestions?
Moretz; I still am not convinced of a parasite. However It won't hurt to be extra cautious. To treat plants you can use aluminum sulfate. A working solution would be made by desolveing 1 tsp. per quart of water. Imerse the plants in the solution for not more than 10 min. Remove and rince well. The plants can then safley be added to the pond without the fear of introduceing new parasites. This may be a little too severe for delicate plants. I usually just use a pond salt solution for intrduceing new fish or new plants. Giving a fish a salt bath is quite tricky, but it will work on plants as well as the fish. Depending on the size of the fish an so forth. About a 10 second dip will clean the skin and gills of most parasites. It may put the fish into shock. and it will need help to clear the mouth and gills of the salt solution. you would do this by gently moveing the fish back and forth, forceing fresh water to flow through its gills. It could take a little bit but when it seems to swim by its self without starting to float on its side or whatever. the fish should be ok then as well be free of parasites. It is not something I like to tell someone who has never done or seen it done, to go do it. But the plants they should be fine with a salt bath. shake the roots gently in the salt bath, then rince They should do fine. I haven't found the measured amount of pond salt to add to the water yet. I will check see if I can find it, I just do it by putting in so much and then adding warm water to help disolve the salt then cool it to the same temp that the fish are used to. But I don't want to cause you to kill a fish. You already feel bad enough.
I checked on Koi Vet. there are conflicting amounts however one method was for a longer period. the quick dip method is 1 cup of pond salt to a gallon of water. It don't really have to be that strong but fairly close. but watch the fish closley, it's just dip wait a bit, less than 10 seconds usually. you will notice that the fish will make rapid gulps to try flush the foul taste out. that is about all the longer to keep the fish in the bath. Then it is to the fresh water, and help him or her to finish flushing the salt out of the gills. and make sure the fish is stable on its own. before introducing the next one. The fish should really be kept in a qurantine tank while they are recouperating, so they can be readly seen, and netted again if they are haveing a problem. Usually once they have settled down on gulping rapidly, and don't have trouble staying upright. while swimming they will be ok.
I am still with the opinion that the problem was oxygen deprovation.
But the above treatment will work on the plants. As long as you are cleaning your pond, it won't hurt to rinse the plants in this mannor.
Russ
Now as long as we are on the subject of parasites and such, A UV filter is a very good investment. Not only does it kill the single cell algae, so it can be filtered out. It also kills most parasites.
A 500 gal pond with 250 gph pump and a 40 W UV will kill
Algae
Bacteria
Protozoa
If you split the flow ( 50-50) half through the UV and half to the falls you could get by with a 25 W The longer it takes for the water to flow through a UV filter the better chance it has of killing all three of the above.
i dont have any fish to worry about lol remember they all died that is why i am on here trying to figure out what made them die, will it tell on the pump how many gph it does? because i dont know the kit i bought from lowes didnt tell anything on the box, thxs
moretz
Moretz...
Did I see that you said the dead fish had no scales??? Like something was trying to eat them???
Your BlueGill is the culprit!!! I had one very small 4 inch Koi who attacked and killed all of my Shubunkin but one when he was added to my big pond...The one that lived was immediately moved to the front fountain tub and is still alive 8 months later but he also had no scales on one whole side, and It took a long time for him to mend but I kept antibiotics in the water and hes fine now..
1/2 inch to 2 inch Koi looks like Minnows to a hungry Bluegill !! Get him out of there, and Ill bet your pond if you put some new test goldfish in there as the pond is now, that they will be fine..
It should give some indication. I am sure that it will give the amps or wats one. and what fractional hp. Then also the modle # which will give an indication as to the gph.
Such as modle LG2500 or some thing like that. "just ficticious number" But that could be 2500 gph or even 250gph and just looking at the outlet fitting will give another clue if it is under 1" I would go with the lesser gallons.
Oh and on the info on the other I only sent that for something to consider when you get ready.
I would normaly tease some. but as I said you already feel bad enough. So no tease tonight.
I am sooo sooorrry for your loss. I lost all my kois last summer(2005) from oxygen deprivation. there was a s storm and the outside switch tripped and when I woke up all my kois were floating!! I was devastated and did not go to work that day.We have a designated line now for the pond.I strongly believe like the others that it was O2 deprivation. Bellie
ok will consider a bigger pump thxs
moretz
Oh when you can, make plans for adding a UV system. My UV filter is a small one that has foam pads within it. I would not recomemd that type to any one. I bought it when I didn't know better. I have to take it apart and rinse the filter pads all the time. You would be far better off to get one that is just the UV light in it and large enough wattage to kill all three; the single cell algae the bacteria and the protozoa. Then too if you can afford it get the one that makes the water stay in contact with the UV rays longer like a Salvo Turbo twist or if it says turbulizer (spell ) Now that information is in one of the books I have. I can never rember which book I need for what. Ahhh it is in the keeping koi book.
It sounds like your new pond will have aproximatly 2160 gal. Are you adding this to your old pond or replaceing the old one. I think I would be tempted to use the old one as a biological filtering system. Have a lot of bog plants in it some gravel and such then have the water trickle back into your new one. you could still have some feeder gold fish and or mosquito fish in that one and your new one for your other fish.
Ok the book says. A 2000 gal pond with a 1000 gal pump, and dividing the flow, with 333gal flowing through the UV at 4 cycles per day a 25 watt will kill the algae bloom . A 40 watt with 4 cycles with the same flow will also kill the bacteria then go up another step higher to a 65 watt it will also kill protozoa, which includes a lot of the parasites.
but then you are getting into more money too. I just test more often. and use barley straw in my water fall filter and it creates a chemical simular to that of hydrogen peroxide. and helps to keep string algae down as well as killing off some of the parasites. Sort of a poor mans way to attack the same problem. of keeping the water clean.
Now if you really didn't care about the cost you could get a 65 watt light and run half of the water through the UV ( 500 gal) 6 water changes per day would still kill all three. Or if you didn't bother with dividing the flow a 130 watt would do it. I think you can also find a simular chart on webbsonline.com and go to UV lights.
I went for a long time with no UV system the worst time for koi is in the early spring when the protozoa become active before the koi immune system starts kicking in. That is one time a UV is really really benificial.. I hope all this don't throw you for a loop. Many would not have a pond without a UV light others use chemicals to treat the water. But in the long run it cost a lot more than spending the money up front, and getting a good UV .
I was trying to find the exact web link but will get that to you later. WEBBS that is. Dinner time now , and I have to mow a neighbor's yard ( an acre ) 2 & 1/2 hours with a 42" cut and rider of course.
WOW,lol i am confussed for sure now hehehhehehe but that is ok i will figure it all out (i hope) before i get it going lol
first i have to dig all the plants up
2nd have to figure out where the septic tank is and irragation lines
3rd have to dig hole once i know where the pipes are lol
4th and so on and so on lol,so it will be awhile before this will be done,
yes i am planning on putt this one at the bottom of the one i have now and hope to put in a waterfall(can be small if neccasary) to go into the new one,so alot of planning to do lol
thxs for all your help
ohhhhhhhh
i went and bought the book
better homes and gardens water gardens pools,streams and fountains and it has the formula for the pond volume and the liner area lol
Great that book will help .
And as promised the web address to check on UV lights
[http://webbsonline.com/catalog/uvlights/index.html]
After you are there you can scroll down to the I think bottom and find a whole list of things liners, pumps, skimmers, tubing, fittings, the whole ball of wax.
Well got the mowing done. noe got enough time to clean up a little get ready to go meet my brother and wife in Sioux Falls. They are due in about 7:15 this evening. His wife said they would buy our supper. That is a little late for us. We like to eat a little earlier so we don't go to bed on a full stomach. ( instant weight gain) right????
lol yep that is why i am fat lol i love to eat later myself and wish i could stop it but i love to eat and i figure it is because i grew up with nothing to eat lol i remembering eating mustard and mayo. sandwiches well enough of that i went and bought a filter
it is
from garden treasures from lowes
for ponds up to 500 gallons works as mechanical and biological filter also includes boi-media for growth of beneficial bacteria but suppose to use it with 200-500gph pumps so will have to get a bigger one which i was planning on it anyway lol did i do good or bad? plmk and thxs
moretz