Still ponds and all advice/input

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

I'm converting an old hot tub into a still pond. It's still sitting in its wooden base and I'm going to leave it there for now. I cleaned it all out when I discovered that the accumulated rain water, etc. killed a little gold fish I threw in -- poor little guy! It has now been sitting for a few days with clean water and a dwarf papyrus, a small amount of Anacharis and some jungle val both of which I got at my local aquarium store. I plan to add more plants. Oh, it also has a few tadpoles that I tossed in from a barrel that had collected rain water and apparently scads of tadpoles. teresamas (Teresa) has been very generous with some of her experience so far.

I'd love to hear anyone's experience in successfully keeping one of these ponds. Particularly about how to get the environment to be self-sustaining so as to support a few fish (not koi) and plants. Any ideas about water, planting, maintaining or anything else that I need to know would be most helpful.

I just love looking at some of some of the ponds here.... they make me drool with envy!!

-- Vicky

Thumbnail by vcb1
Columbia, MO(Zone 5b)

What a wonderful idea! I would just treat it like any other pond, just put in a fountain of some kind to help oxygenate the water and keep it from becoming a misquito magnet. I do not know if the chemicals used to keep the water clean while it was being used as a hot tub would have been absorbed into the plastic and make it permanantly toxic to fish. I am sure someone will have the answer to that for you.

Lakeland, FL(Zone 9b)

Put in some Hyacinths it will help keep the pond clean

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

phicks, water hyacinths are on the Florida invasive species list and I can't in all good conscience bring myself to plant any. I do plan to add some lilies and hopefully other plants. Do you know if lilies also help keep it clean?

tetleytuna (love that name! -- I used to have a ferret named Tom Tuna -- don't ask me how he got that name!), my plan is to try to do this without electricity -- thus no fountain, pump, filter. I'm hoping to get some advice on keeping this pond a "still pond." Of course I'm banking on the idea that this is possible! My electric connections are all messed up outside and I can't afford to fix it now so any electric will have to wait. I've done inside electric work but haven't tackled outside stuff myself. I've been tempted though....

I'm also planning on putting some bog plants in buckets or something beside the hot tub to simulate a real bog.

I can sure see how water gardening is addictive! I look around my yard and all I see are places where I can dig a pond or put a barrel or something similar!!

-- Vicky

Claremore, OK

Swimming pool liners are known to kill fish. There is some chemical in those liners that is harmful to fish. There is some way to cure that, but I don't know what it is. I don't know if your hot tub has the same thing.

The most common way to kill fish is to expose them too much (or all) treated muncipal water. There are dechlorinators you can get at places like PetSmart. I've heard to many sad stories about people leaving the hose in their pond and forgetting about it and coming back to all dead fish.

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks darlindeb. I've had indoor aquariums before so I know about water. I was actually wondering how people deal with water. Naturally with the sun here we get quite a bit of evaporation so refilling my "pond" will be an issue.

I don't know if the hot tub originally had some kind of treatment. It's been sitting for about 4 years with only rainwater (i.e., unused as a hot tub). I currently have tadpoles living in it and they're doing fine but maybe they're tougher than fish I don't know. Do you know if there's a way to tell if it's treated in some way?

Tampa, FL

hey vcb1, i have my 2 "still ponds". they are full of mud, as i have never cleaned them..now all plants are rooted, tons of 'Cabomba, Foxtail. I find that the key to natural clear H20 is a huge amount of underwater oxygenators... Nifty water sensitive fern, parrot's feather. small papyrus,..for top plants or bog.. that i bought a couple of years ago,,,they are now rooted also, keeps the ponds crystal clear! i have harvested from the ditches the Polygonas and other native Fla. water plants,(i don't have to tell you to be careful of the "mocs"...) they all started out in pots and again have grown into the pond. Dollar weed, that annoying ground cover is growing in the ponds, but looks nice..a couple of water lilies in pots, i do have to top it up if it doesn't rain with a capful of Pondquell..that is also my water change as i let both ponds overflow! Tons of mosquito fish..i stupidly put in 3 from my front drainage ditch..now you could walk on them. They are the hardiest little fish i know..i would try some of them..just net them from a local pond! And you already know my pet Southern Water Snake...culling fish and plants and topping up water are the main tasks at hand. Tons of swordtails are breeding...i don't know why you couldn't do fish in this tub? Just try a couple of feeder goldfish? keep the Mosquito larvae down?Good luck! sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

weedsgalore, thank you! I was hoping folks that had successfully done a still pond would chime in. What exactly are mosquito fish? Are they just those little guys that I see in ditches and small ponds around here? I really don't have a problem with mosquitos here on the beach -- I think it's because we almost always have wind. But if they eat other bugs it would be a good addition. What do the fish in your pond eat? Other than mosquito larvae? Do you need to add fish food? What eats the algae? I'm just starting to get some new algae on the sides after cleaning out the hot tub and starting over.

teresamas offered to send me some plants so I'm waiting for those. I'm thinking more plants will help hold down the algae.

-- Vicky

Tampa, FL

yes, Vicky, they are those little guys that look like guppies that magically appear in ditches, throughout Fla. I am told that when the ditches go dry they burrow in the mud for months...after our drainage ditches fill again...they are there! Scoop a few with anything a cup or what have you and give them a try! They are free after all! I have a variety of fish in both ponds, my ponds are 125. gallon and 100 gal. Lowes preformed. I have had them about 8 years or so, they are so grown in that they look natural. In one pond i have double swordtails, guppies, mollies, and one gorgeous Blue paradise Fish..(gourami family). There are about 50 to 75 offspring..i will start to "harvest" the fry when bigger before our cooler weather..many overwinter..as it is impossible to catch them all. In the other pond 2 six inch goldfish that were feeders once upon a time. I once had a pump, bubbling water, it broke and now all fish and plants are fine..with the natural filtration of lots of plants. i do feed a flake food once a day to the fish as i enjoy doing that...it gets devoured, so i don't pollute the pond. But there is so much vegetation etc. i really don't need to feed at all. Algae isn't much of a problem, again , using lots of underwater plants takes care of the balance. You can't have enough of oxygenators in a still pond. Your water most likely will turn a yucky pea green! If you get enough plants it will balance itself...but it is an annoying problem all new ponders freak out with!! You can float straw etc. to correct this...I don't know how well it works..there are also tons of bottles of algae reducer on the market..i don't know how well they work! It is worth a trip to petsmart or the like to get some underwater plants. They are not expensive, just put a small rock on the bottom to anchor them. If you have full sun..they will grow. let me know how it goes. sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Sue, I actually have a preformed in my garage that I got at Wallie World last year. It was really cheap since they were just getting rid of it. That will be next. I don't know how many gallons it is -- it's not super huge but decent sized and has a separate waterfall thing that I probably won't use since I don't want electricity.

I don't have a problem with algae as long as the "pond" is healthy. I grew up in Michigan in a county that had just scads and scads of lakes and ponds. Needless to say us kids were always playing around the ponds and I always loved them! Frogs, turtles, snakes, peat, moss, cattails, birds, and all! Mucky feet when we slipped in a wet spot too. And skating in the winter (not that I'll do that on mine in FL!).

Thanks for all your suggestions. I'll post some progress as this experiment grows....

-- Vicky

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Hello, all!

I'm really enjoying reading this info on ponds. I've been a member with Dave's for about a year now, but mostly participate in the Daylilies forums, as I'm a daylily fanatic.

I have just recently put in my own pond, though, using a kit I bought at Walmart. It's 3'x6' and about 15" deep. I have a fountain in it, and am working on a waterfall for it. I put in 3 calico fantail goldfish, a waterlily, water hyacinth, water lettuce, and pickerel weed. I plan to put in more fish soon, and perhaps more plants. Around the perimiter I planted miniature plants, such as crested iris, mini astilbe, mini solomon's seal, a mini daylily, and mini hostas. I am so excited about my new pond! This is all new to me.

Vicky, you mentioned you didn't want water hyacinth as it is so invasive in your area, which I have read that is so, but I think in a pond like you have it will be no problem keeping it under control. I would just cut out what excess you get and put it in the compost heap, but certainly not in the water ways.

Sue, it's nice to know you can just let your plants root into the muck in the bottom. Maybe I should do that in my pond. I have a liner. You don't think the roots would ever tear holes in it, do you? Of course, my pond is not a still pond, as I have the fountain and will soon have a waterfall.

Vicky and Sue, I was looking in a pond supply catalog for The Pond Guy, and I found something called barley straw that helps keep algae under control. You can get it in bales, pellets or liquid extract. The liquid works on contact, but the bales take 6-8 weeks and work up to 6 mths. The liquid works up to 3 mths. Might be something worth trying. It's still too soon to have algae in my pond yet, but I'm sure it will be there soon.

Here is a picture of my new pond.

Karen

Thumbnail by nutsfordaylily
Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Wow Karen it's so pretty! I wish we had those kind of rocks around here.... rock of any kind is very expensive here.

I try to be environmentally conscious about my gardening. I live on a barrier island with the ocean on one side and the Indian River (1 1/2 miles wide here becoming the Intercoastal further south) on the other. Our beach is a major sea turtle nesting area. The river is part of the Indian River Lagoon which is probably the most biologically diverse estuarine system in the US, supporting more than 3,000 species of animals and plants. Thus it's all a very fragile place. A lot of things have been done to damage and destroy the environment here in Florida -- witness the everglades!

So, I try to do what I can to preserve what's left and that includes monitoring the invasive species lists and avoiding them -- plants, animals, whatever. I'm very afraid that we're ruining our planet!

I'll get off my soapbox now!! LOL.

As for algae.... isn't it part of the "system"? I'm just learning about this but I'm hoping to get a cycle going so this still pond is self-sustaining. So plants produce oxygen which supports fish who poop fertilizing the plants, etc., etc. I don't mind some algae in my pond but I don't want it to be pea soup either. If anyone knows what a good balance is, I'd be interested in hearing.

Keep us updated on your pond, Karen -- you sure have a good start!

-- Vicky

Tampa, FL

karen, You have a very nice pond...vicky is right..we must pay for rocks..as i was born in Springfield mass. i remember just dig into the earth and there you have rocks! Of course there were tons of natural gorges, lakes etc. from which you could haul home the prettiest river washed specimens! I think you have just the right amount of fish to start with...many beginning ponders put in 20, 30 or more in the beginning only to have them die and delay the healthy recycling...your fantails will grow fat and happy..you could add some minnow types (i don't know what is hardy in Mass. since fall is coming). Your local pond and aquarium store will help. If you keep your fish count low you will have success! (watch those racoons, give your little guys a place to hide like a small stack of rocks at the bottom. Build a little "cave" that they can fit under...or overturned small terra cotta flower pot with a entrance hole...As for the root tearing, my ponds are rigid liners, pretty tough..they have been there for about 6 or 7 yrs. now, and are holding water w/o leaks! Let us know how it's going! sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Yes, the only readily available and inexpensive rock around here is coquina rock which is mostly shell -- thus very alkaline. Maybe we should start a thread for rock trading -- LOL! We'd have to rent trucks!

Thanks for the tip about racoon hideouts Sue. I hadn't thought of that....

-- Vicky

Tampa, FL

How true, i have actually won rocks on ebay..the shipping is a killer!! (pretty collectible mineral specimens".) A racoon can really destroy a pond looking for food (fish, frogs etc.) they will tear up your potted lilies, tip over things and make a real mess...i have been lucky they leave my ponds alone..which is amazing as i see them around! One pond shop that specialized in water plants..she had huge shallow water boxes was really upset as the racoons got hold of alot of uneaten pizzas and used her shop to "wash" the food...grease and garbage remnants everywhere! she had to drain the pools..they shredded her inventory...amazing! don't want to scare you, just be aware..your new pond will attract nature..that is the reason we have them! sue

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Thanks for the compliments, Vicky and Sue. I have heard about all the damage racoons can do, and we do have them around here. In fact there was a mother an babies nesting in a dead, tall pine tree stump at the top here recently. I think they moved out the day after my sister decided to disturb them. They haven't visited my pond yet. I do have a lot of rocks in the pond, and the fish hide amongst them, but I will think about putting in something safer for them. Hopefully the coons won't decide to go fishing in my pond. I read the only thing that keeps them out is a low electric fence. I don't want to have to install one.

As for the rocks, I had some on my property, but our property is not very rocky at all. In fact there are very few here, and most public lands you cannot just go and take rocks away. I lived in Nevada for awhile, and I used to get tons of rocks from the desert there. So many there were! Mostly on BLM (Bureau of Land Management) land. Here I found a beach on the ocean that is private, and the residents don't like all the rocks that constantly wash ashore there. They are happy to have me come and take as many as I like. I was thrilled to find this out, because buying them is sooooo expensive. I have a friend who has been helping load them in buckets to haul up to my car. A lot of work, and I can't put many in my little Ford Focus, but it's definitely worth it. I have made about 3 trips so far. I just need a few more for this area, but I may get more for a seasonal stream we have in the back, where the sump-pump empites water from a pipe that comes from our cellar. Whenever we get a lot of rain that pump comes on to keep our cellar from flooding. The water drains to an unlined pond in the back that only remains full when it's wet. The area back there generally stays wet, though, and is good for moisture loving plants, such as astilbe, goat's beard, ostrich fern, etc. It's an area I haven't really done much with, but I have plans for it.

Vicky, that's great that you are so environmentally conscious. I was talking to a friend just today in fact, and she was mentioning how barberry bushes may no longer be sold around here, as they are classified as invasive. I told her this was true. She said she didn't care, she liked them, and they aren't hard to pull up or dig up. Not really the point. They seed in all over and crowd out natives. She also likes the purple loosestrife, which is also an invasive species here. It's very pretty, but it takes over in no time, clogging waterways (kind of like your water hyacinth in Florida, but these are rooted in the ground) and crowding out natives. Here I can grow the water hyacinth and not worry about it being invasive, as it will die during the winter. I will just get more the following year.

Vicky, yes, we are ruining our planet! I read an article printed in National Geographic last year about invasive species. It opened up my eyes for sure. Just like the article in National Geographic that I read, I think printed in the 80's, about landfills. When I found out 50% of our landfills is paper, then I decided I would be recycling a lot more, including all my junk mail (sans any personal info, such as my addy, etc.).

And Vicky, yes, algae is part of the system. A little is fine with me also, but not excessive amounts. I plan to get some snails to help with some of it. I imagine you have some, maybe a lot, in your ponds.

I have purchase three comets for my pond, and they seem to be doing well. Now a want a couple of shubunkins and I will be good to go. I think that will be enough. But does anyone know how big they get? Are they like the comets in size? I've read they will grow according to their surroundings, but I thought that was a fallacy about fish.

Karen

Emmaus, PA(Zone 6a)

i have a shubunkin who is now 11 yrs old.. i would say he is close to 9 inches long... and really hasnt grown all that much recently. I think he is as big as he is to get.

My Koi on the other hand, just keep growing.... i got them all 10 yrs ago, and the largest is almost 2 feet and still growing...

Virginia Beach, VA

I had a still pond years ago before my other 2 and I never had luck keeping my fish alive and so I think some kind of a pump is needed for oxygen. Bellie

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Well here's a little progress report.... I have some a few plants and a few tadpoles that were in a big rain water tub I have. The tadpoles did great -- some have already turned into little frogs -- so I added two plain old gold fish. Everyone is doing great! And it's been a couple of weeks now. I do need to add some more plants but $$ are an issue since I'm not working so they'll have to wait. The hot tub has quite a bit of algae in it -- it's not clear. I don't know if that is a problem or part of the cycle.

So I'm happy! It seems to be working and it looks so much prettier than it did when it was just a rain water plus yukkk container.

Here's a pic....

-- Vicky

Thumbnail by vcb1
Tampa, FL

Vicky, It looks great! And you are in the green water cycle..that drives everyone crazy!! If when you get some cash...just pile in some underwater plants...you really could go and get them from a local lake, that would work...that is how i got some of mine! Naturally always be careful of gators and snakes..if that is too adventurous for you, just wait and get some aquarium cabomba..that stuff takes off in my ponds big time!! by being conservative in your fish, you are on the way to a balanced system. Congratulations!! sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Sue, thanks for the support! It helps alot when you're learning about something plus it's always great to know when you're on the right track.

I think my biggest problem with a local pond or swampy place to get plants and/or fish is that I have nothing to wear on my feet! That sounds dumb but having grown up around swamps I know the kind of thing that can get buried in the muck -- and I didn't even have critters like alligators to worry about where I grew up!! We were always careful cuz of snakes, snapping turtles, glass and cans with sharp metal. I don't have any rain boots or anything like that.... sandals are my main shoe and I pretty much wear them 365. Hmmmmm.... there must be a solution to this.... maybe the thrift shop or something like that. -- Vicky

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Terri, thanks for letting me know about the size of your subunkin. I don't think that will be too big for my pond. A local pet store had 2 of them, good size ones with great markings, for $14.99 each. I'm a little broke right now, though, so will have to wait. Maybe they will still have them when I get the money. At that price I may only buy one.

Vicky, your pond is looking good. I have some algae in my pond right now, too, but not too much. Perhaps snails will help with some of it, at least the stuff that clings to the sides and bottom. I wan't to get some for my pond. I was thinking you could purchase a pair of aqua shoes that are used for swimming. I'm thinking those might prevent your feet from getting cut by any glass or other sharp things in the water. If it's very soft mud you would sink in, though, I imagine, and boots might be a better choice.

Karen

Tampa, FL

Good idea Karen, I sure agree with you Vicky, there is no way i would go into muck in Fla. without protection...and you know to take someone with you, in case your feet get stuck in the mud! lol! Yup i am a "sandal-kind of a gal"!! also! I do have a retention ditch in back of my ponds, and i have been known to wander around in my flip flops...my feet come out black with mud. and flip flops have disappeared....pretty awful..i run to the garden hose and wash off...but i know what is there...and right now our mosquitos would carry me away..so i avoid that place till fall cleanup time...yuck...sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Right sue, that's the thing -- you know what's in your muck. I don't have an issue with the dirt since I always garden in an old pair of Birkenstocks (they're the toughest darn shoes.... I get them full of dirt, rinse them in the hose.... I've had the same pair for 2 years now!).

Karen, swimming shoes are a good idea! I'll have to look and see how much they are plus I don't know how thick they are. But I guess if they're made to use when you're stepping on shells & rocks and stuff then they might do the job. I won't have to wade in very far to get some plants and maybe a couple of little fish.

Thanks all!

P. S. This is a secret since I'm waiting to see for sure but I think I'm getting a flower on my lily!!!!! More as things progress....

-- Vicky

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Vicky, those water shoes are pretty cheap at Walmart. I think less than $5. And the soles are pretty thik. I use them whenever I go swimming in the ocean around here, as you never know what you might step on. Mostly the beachs around here are sandy, but there are rocky areas, too, and some areas that are slimy on the bottom. I hate the feel of a slimy bottom in my bare feet. Yuk! They are great for using at water parks, too, as they don't fall off easily.

Karen

Tampa, FL

Hi Karen, do i ever remember swimming in the ocean in Mass. & Conn. (where i am originally from) How bout that ol' slimy seaweed?....We would go clamming in the bays with our bare toes and dig around in the bay muck...every now and then i would slice my toe on a razor clam?? Ah, the good ol' days! sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Okay, this morning it opened!!! I am disappointed that my camera doesn't show the really pretty lavender color better. I'm soooo happy I got a bloom so quickly!

-- Vicky

Thumbnail by vcb1
Tampa, FL

Contratulations Vicky, It is lovely! Isn't it amazing how fast our water gardens progress? I looked back at your pic in your first post, on Aug. 22. And your hot tub garden has really grown!! I still get a kick out of any water lily blooms that appear. By the way, to help with your cycling efforts (and your water doesn't look very bad for a new pond) pinch any of the water lily pads that are declining (ie yellowing or rotting around the edges) and take them out..it will do 2 things, your lily will thank you by putting up new growth, and you will help in the clearing of your pond by not having the pads decompose and add to the "soup".pinch as near to the main plant body as you can. A little tip...pruning is what i do everyday in my ponds. sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks sue! Yes, I have been doing a bit of pruning and it seems to help -- both lilies are sending up new leaves too. I also have an allamanda growing just behind the tub and it kind of hangs over it so I always clean up any leaves and flowers that drop in. I'm very pleased with my tub so far!

-- Vicky

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Yay, Vicky! Nice lily flower. I got the first on mine today as well, but didn't get a picture of it to show off. It's yellow, a hardy one. I had a flower when I bought it, but after the first day in my pond that one was done. I also have 3 more buds that will be coming soon.

Sue, clamming must be fun. I've never tried it. Must use the water shoes for that. I think you have to have a permit to do it. I'm not sure. You need a permit for everything around here it seems. This is Taxachusetts for sure. I lived 17 years in Nevada, 1 1/2 years in Sacramento, CA, and 4 years in Mesa, AZ, and none of those places were as bad as here. Oh, well. I grew up here and came back to be closer to my family after my mother died. I hope to go back to Arizona someday. I loved it there. But I may be going to Texas to live the latter part of next year, with my sister whose husband passed away recently from cancer. We don't always get to do what we hope.

Karen

Tampa, FL

Hey Karen! Lived 6 yrs. in Boston, where i met my husband. I was born in Springfield Mass. but lived most of my life in Suffield Conn. I love New England! But not the winters...and you are right, it is a very expensive place to live. My car isurance was through the roof!! Actually the way my family clammed was digging our toes in the mud, then you would feel a clam and reach down and grab it, before it burrowed away. (we also harvested alot of rocks! lol) Most people do it the proper way with a clam rake..we did get alot of clams however! Congrats, on YOUR first blooms! It is so gratifying isn't it? sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Karen and Sue, I lived on Long Island -- north shore -- for quite a while. We used to do clamming the same way! I sure miss that wonderful New England seafood down here. All we get is grouper and mahi and they're just not as good.... Rock shrimp rock though! I love them! I also had a cabin in VT for quite a while -- no clams there though!!!

-- Vicky

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

I'm sorry, I just had to share again because I got a much better pic of my wonderful first lily! Now you can really see the color. -- Vicky

Thumbnail by vcb1
Tampa, FL

Gorgeous Vicky!! And a wonderful photo too! It looks like a painting! sue

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks Sue!

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Vicky, that really is a nice photo. What a gorgeous color.

Vicky and Sue, I think I may miss New England when I move, but I won't miss the high cost of living, that's for sure. I will be visiting Marco Island, FL this January. I was there this past January as well, and I visited the everglades while I was there. I also did a lot of shell collecting. I was at the beach 5 days out of the seven that I stayed there. Had to soak the shells in bleach water, as they really stank. One still had a dead creature inside of it that I didn't know about, and nasty fluid leaked out onto some clothes in my bag on the trip home, and stunk up the whole kit and kaboodle. Gross! But those shells sure are pretty. I'm going to use them for craft projects that I have yet to do. Probably in the winter when I have less to do.

Karen

Melbourne Beach, FL(Zone 10a)

Karen, I took my mom and a couple of cups of Starbucks coffee and we sat at the beach for a long time last evening. The beaches were all PACKED and have been for the last couple of days. The waves are absolutely immense -- 5-6 ft! And the surfers have been out in droves. We watched them for a long time. The hurricanes that have been passing to the east have created the huge waves. I love the beach!

Thanks for the photo compliment!

-- Vicky

edited because I can't type!

This message was edited Sep 15, 2006 10:10 AM

Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

Vicky,

I would have loved to see the beaches there like that. You are on the east coast, I'm assuming. I went to the beach here a couple of times, and the waves have been great here, too. Here is a picture I took there. It was on 9/11. I took it with my camera phone, so the quality wasn't good.

Karen

Thumbnail by nutsfordaylily
Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

That pic really doesn't show how great the waves really were. The tide was higher than normal, also. Here is the flag at half mast.

Karen

Thumbnail by nutsfordaylily
Halifax, MA(Zone 6a)

I'll try again. It didn't go through.

Thumbnail by nutsfordaylily

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