drought tolerant

Okay, here's my question. Does anyone have suggestions for full sun, drought tolerant, zone 5, shrubs and perennials for attracting wild life? As you might be able to tell, I'm kind of new to this forum.

Candi

Here's a starter list of smaller woodies (edited from the other post you have already perused). You ought to cross-reference these to a list of NY natives for your locale, soils, etc. I grow all these for wildlife/birds/insects here, and I believe that these are all zone 5 species.

Aesculus spp. buckeyes
Amelanchier spp. serviceberries
Aralia spinosa devil's walkingstick
Asimina triloba pawpaw
Bignonia capreolata crossvine
Castanea pumila dwarf chinkapin
Cercis canadensis redbud
Clematis virginiana virgin's bower
Cornus florida flowering dogwood
Cornus racemosa gray dogwood
Crataegus spp. hawthorns
Euonymus atropurpureus eastern wahoo
Fothergilla gardenii dwarf fothergilla
Hamamelis virginiana witch hazel
Juniperus virginiana red cedar
Lonicera flava yellow trumpet honeysuckle
Lonicera sempervirens red trumpet honeysuckle
Malus clones crabapples
Myrica pensylvanica bayberry
Parthenocissus quinquefolia Virginia creeper
Prunus spp. wild native cherries
Ptelea trifoliata hoptree, wafer ash
Rhus spp. sumacs
Rubus spp. blackberries and black raspberries
Symphoricarpos orbiculatus coralberry
Toxicodendron radicans poison ivy
Viburnum spp. viburnum (about 100 different ones now)
Vitis spp. wild grapes
Zanthoxylum americanum prickly ash

cardinal flower. The non climbing one. Or the climbing one. Coneflower, black-eyed susan, sunflowers, blue lobiela.

Yes, but the drought tolerance is the issue. So many of the shrubs are woodland type and require moist soil. I have coneflower and black eyed susan and they're great. (almost invasive with the coneflower) Service berries seem good and I don't have that yet. We have the black berries and raspberries, we're bordered by red cedars, but the other ones like moist soil, shade; I'm now stuck with full sun and drought prone conditions. We're on shale with some clay. Maybe there are no great shrubs for these conditions.

Hi, Candi. There are shrubs well suited for sun and drought. In Donald J. Leopold's Native Plants of the Northeast he has an index of plants that tolerate dry soil and sun. I cross referenced his list with Gary L. Hightshoe's Native Trees, Shrubs, and Vines for Urban and Rural America to see which ones are native to your area and here's what I came up with:

Amerlanchier sanguinea (roundleaf serviceberry)
Amerlanchier stolonifera (running serviceberry)
Amorpha fruticosa (indigobush)
Arctostaphylos uva-ursi (bearberry)
Aronia arbutifolia (red chokeberry)
Aronia melanocarpa (black chokeberry)
Ceanothus americanus (New Jersey tea)
Ceanothus herbaceus (Prairie-redroot)
Comptonia peregrina (sweetfern)
Cornus racemosa (gray dogwood)
Cornus rugosa (roundleaf dogwood)
Corylus americana (American hazelnut)
Gaultheria procumbens (teaberry)
Gaylussacia baccata (black huckleberry)
Juniperus (juniper) spp.
Kalmia latifolia (mountain laurel)
Myrica pensylvanica (northern bayberry)
Physocarpus opulifolius (eastern ninebark)
Potentilla fruticosa (shrubby cinquefoil)
Quercus ilicifolia (scrub oak)
Quercus prinoides (dwarf chestnut oak)
Rhus aromatica (fragrant sumac)
Rhus copallina (shining sumac)
Rhus glabra (smooth sumac)
Rhus typhina (staghorn sumac)
Rosa (rose) spp. (except R. palustris, swamp rose)
Salix cordata (dune willow)
Shepherdia canadensis (buffalo berry)
Spiraea alba (meadowsweet)
Symphoricarpos albus (snowberry)
Symphoricarpos orbiculatus (coralberry)
Vaccinium angustifolium (low sweet blueberry)
Zanthoxylum americanus (prickly-ash)

I'd do the wildflowers, too, but my fingers are tired. If you're interested, D-mail me and I'll put together a list.

Wildflowers are bombproof. I know because i don't do anything with ours and I just can't kill them no matter how little or much attention I give them. They will grow in shade or sun. The list fireweed gave you is a good one for shrubs. I amy have to try them myself because I can't any shubs to grow here very well. Have several that are almost 10 yrs old and are still the original height.

Good job Fireweed. The Amerlanchier stolonifera (running serviceberry) stands out to me on the list as being very desirable for candyinpok.

candyinpok- You mentioned in another thread that you were recently certified and wanted to continue in the vein of planting North American plants for North American wildlife. You may want to conside focusing on plants that are indigenous to Dutchess County and the critters will come. I'm going to toss a few links out to you-

Wild Ones would be the best to join for habitat creation however I don't know if they have a chapter close to you but check them out. I know that I live by the border to another State so I joined the chapter across the border only because the chapter in my State was too darn far away-
http://www.for-wild.org/

The Nature Conservancy is a group that is right up there with Wild Ones-
http://www.nature.org/

One of my favorite sites-
http://www.epa.gov/greenacres/

Audubon has a few chapters in New York and they often offer sustainable gardening workshops-
http://www.audubon.org/states/index.php?state=NY

Here's a link to your Department of Environmental Conservation-
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/
I only mention them because you might be able to get free or very cheap native tree saplings from them.

New England Wild Flower Society
http://www.newfs.org/

Protected Native Plants
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dlf/privland/forprot/pnp/

Neat site where you can plug in your State and some plant lists will appear and they are pretty darn good lists-
http://www.enature.com/native_invasive/

You gotta love the Sierra Club-
http://newyork.sierraclub.org/nyc/

If you were able to get a hold of anyone within this organization, they might have lists specific to your County-
Mary Flagler Cary Arboretum Institute of Ecosystem Studies
Box R, Route 44A, Millbrook, NY 12545-0178
Tel: 914-677-5359
"The Fern Glen native garden was founded for the preservation and enjoyment of plants indigenous to the northeastern United States. Fern Glen includes wetland; deciduous forest; shrub swamp; bog plants; and a pond with nature trails, hiking, bird watching. and wild-flowers. A wheelchair-accessible perennial garden blooms May through October. A greenhouse is open all year."

Just some possible contacts for you to toss around to zoom in on your specific site requirments now that you are certified.

FYI, the New York Flora Association is both native and naturalized plant life so joining them won't advance your goals. Lots of people get hung up on their mention of wildflowers and don't realize they are promoting native and introduced species. Introduced species that "naturalize" are often big problems because they "naturalize" which is a process by which they successfully out compete native plants.

Not much more than a dime's worth of difference between Fireweed's and my list, other than more specificity in species. Good job, FW, on the rapid research.

I, on the other hand, listed plants that I have growing here, right now, in central KY heavy clay loam soil that is about as droughty in summer (I can photo the 1.5-2" wide cracks) as you would want to see.

Sure, many plants grow in woodlands or prefer moist soils. That's where they would reproduce naturally. There are far fewer shrubs that reproduce in meadows/prairies/savannas; sumacs come to mind. Most are edge of woodland species, and form the leading edge of reforestation of disturbed (open sunny herbaceous) sites, unless you are in the arid areas or areas historically disturbed by fire.

The original request mentioned full sun drought tolerant wildlife attractors. My whole list (and FW's) qualify, by experience and/or reference. Your challenge is to determine which suit your wildlife, your site, and your level of experimentation and risk. Not everything will be successful, even if you do everything right. THAT'S gardening.

I'd vote for buying the ironclad stuff, and going with seed on the things that you are less than confident about.

Well said V V.

Experiment, experiment a lot. Be prepared to lose quite a few plants. It happens.

Stepping in here briefly...

I just wanted to say I appreciate both of the above quotes. It's so easy to assume that you've done something wrong if you research a plant carefully and it still doesn't thrive in your yard, and then you lose the courage to try more. In my case, I'm developing a list of cold hardy cacti/succulents for my yard, and very often the hardiness and cultivation info for a plant disagrees from site to another. I've finally come to the realization that I'll just need to kill some plants in the years ahead to learn what works here...I'll need to have failure to find the success. I didn't really grasp before that this IS a large part of gardening, but comments like these help me to have the courage to be stubborn and keep trying even when things don't work.

Wow people, thanks for the discussion. I was hopeful that someone local might have growing experience. Fireweed - Thank you for all the work. I'm excited because I just ordered the book you got your list from (among others).

Viburnumvalley. You've been really helpful because of your own experience and because of your background. I have a book by Sunset ("Northeastern Gardens") which lists a bunch of Viburums but the advice about moisture tolerances, etc. sounds more like the sales pitches from nurseries than the species descriptions. And, as you've mentioned elsewhere, some information out there is contradictory. Right now I'm thinking about getting a "Winterthur." And, you're correct, I get hung up on the woodland descriptions. So much of NY wildlife and plant life advice pertains to woodland varieties. I have a wooded area behind my property and some trees, but what about the front and side yards. I would like to have less grass. And so that's where I'm targeting these questions. We put in a maple but it won't be providing much shade for a while, much the same for the junipers and I suspect the conditions will still be dry. Most of the viburnums native here are found in woodlands and stream banks so it makes me worried. If we convert to town water which we may have to, it could cost a fortune to water. So much to think about.

Equilibrium, I'm definitely experimenting. But shrubs are expensive. I'm into my second year of researching and planting (converting the old landscape) and there's so much to learn! And the links are great. I've been to some of them before. I love the nature conservancy. I use the CT Invasive and Native Plant databases a lot because the zone is closer to mine than the Brooklyn Botanical site and otherwise, NY doesn't seem to do well with information I don't think. There's the upstate area, the NY City area, andy they have great information, but we're in between and there doesn't seem to be much attention to us in the Hudson Valley. Another one of my concerns is the invasive plant issue and I try to avoid plants on those lists. There are a fair number of them invading my yard on their own already. Also the Mohonk and Institute deer resistent lists are usefull, and I try to cross reference all my major purchases. Smaller perennials I sometimes do just to try them out. Some things, like purple coneflower, yarrow and hyssop love my yard. Monarda seems to hate it no matter where I put it or how I amend.

The shrubs that we have that so far are okay are bearberry, dogwood, spirea, juniper. I've got a hawthorne that gets rust badly (as do the goldenrods), a moutain laurel thats very anemic looking, but bloomed well this spring, and blueberries that are a mixed bag. Some highbush are doing well, others are barely surviving. So experiment? We are for sure!

Anyway, I really appreciate the help. And I'll just keep reading and working up courage to try new shrubs.

There is generally an open seed exchange for Wild Ones members in local chapters across the US in fall. We have a tendency of loading up the new members to the extent that they use shopping bags to get home and that is no exaggeration. You'd get local genotype.

What you described about using the CT databases is exactly why I use the WI data bases. Illinois is a very loooooooooong state with some parts up north in a zone 4 and some parts way down south in a zone 6/7. Needless to say what they grow down south is of no interest to me. I want the local genotype.

One good thing about being in NY is that you fall in the Eastern US. Most of us are also east of the Rockies so you will be able to tap into many people who have experience with plants you might be interested in trying.

Were your blueberries on the property or did you add them?

Candi,

Most of my garden has moist soil, but I have one dry section I needed small plants for. I ended up with Asclepias tuberosa (butterfly weed) which is a nectar plant, and is a host plant for monarch butterflies. I'm very happy with it. I know you mentioned you wanted some perennials.

The others I'll mention are shrubs already listed by Fireweed87, but I know these definitely have wildlife value.

Ceanothus americanus (New Jersey tea) - Per the Ladybird Johnson Wildflower Center site, "Butterfly Larval Host: Spring Azure, Summer Azure, Mottled Duskywing", and it says it attracts songbirds. Based on other things I've read, it's supposed to have a few weeks of serving as a wonderful nectar plant. I bought some, but at this point the plants are too small for me to really know how they'll work out.

Myrica pensylvanica (northern bayberry) - This was a favorite of birds in a park near where I work. I've been sorry I don't really have a spot for it in my yard.

I would like to add to oldmudhouse and the quotes she chose.

When living in MN, I planted three cherry trees in the same spot - one right after another. The first one died due to a bunny girding it in winter. The second, I put a tree wrap on it to protect it in the winter from the hungry bunnies and the ants killed it. They nested under the plastic tube wrap and the bark rotted in the wake of their destruction. The third is still there. I wrapped some airy metal screening around it. I just had to have a cherry tree. If something dies - it might not be b/c it isn't working w/ the climate or soil. BTW bunnies also ate my American Bittersweet and the Amelanchier to the ground - wrap it up or feed the bunnies instead of birds!

I like both Viburnum's and Fireweed's lists. I also would like to note, and you probably know this w/ the amount of gardening it sounds like you've done, that drought tolerant plants are only drought tolerant once their roots have been established. For some plants this is a year, for others two.

I would like to champion two of their choices:
the northern bayberry - *This plant is important to many migrating birds and early spring arrivals.* It is drought tolerant as we planted it in sand next to a building (MN) - believe it got water when it rained. MN can be hot and dry. Plant several to ensure male and female plants despite what the nursery people tell you - most don't sex them - some don't know to. Pretty leaves, great screen, and nice smell.

Also, the Ptelea trifoliata or wafer ash. If you can find one in your area (I know they are native in NY, don't know if they grow where you are) I have one here in WCentral TX - it is a very pretty tree - pretty bark, pretty leaves, pretty form. It is host to the giant swallowtail - which has flights in your area. It is also a great nectar plant for all kinds of butterfly. Quite drought tolerant.

My yard in MN was also NWF certified. No pics on the net 'cause I couldn't figure out how to put them there. The new owner is a young man. I can only hope he appreciates all the work I did - the hummers that come every year, the monarchs, the songbirds. I noticed he took out the dead tree in a pic my neighbor sent of the garden this summer, but I guess that is understandable. The neighbors all hated it, they just wouldn't tell me. We put a nice tire swing on it that all the kids loved, but I guess a young single guy doesn't need one of those. And the tree we planted to replace it did need more space to grow. For about 5 yrs.+ after we moved into that house we had rare pileated woodpeckers and red headed woodpeckers as well as the more common ones. Then, in one summer, *everyone* cut down their sick or hollow, or old, or didn't like 'em trees. All but a very few downy woodpeckers disappeared:(

You mentioned spending a lot on water - you could collect rainwater in rainbarrels to save you some money. KY is a great place to get wood ones, but food grade plastic ones are also available. All are recycled from whiskey or food containers. They come with various screens for large material and small ones for keeping insects out. They come in various styles, colors, and some come decorated. They usually have both a spigot at the bottom for hoses and one at the top to overflow into another barrel. Get your neighbors in on the idea to save you and all of them some money on shipping. Also, since these guys are low-pressure, they are great to use w/ another water saving device: soaker hoses.

Equilibrium. There will be a seed exchange at the native nursury in Catskill in Sept. if I can get there. Other than that, the only ones I found were up in Syracuse. A big trip. The U of Conn. site is very helpful, although they are coastal and deal a lot with shore issues, but the zone is right and inland they have rocks and clay like we do. We added the blueberries. My dh's interests lie in the fruit direction. He has added one each of several varieties of blueberry and we're trying to figure out which do well, and how to make them grow. Last year we really had a lot of berries for a long time. This year has not been so great. Don't know if its a weather issue or a green thumb issue.

Lori, I have Asclepias tuberosa also. So far it's growing okay but it's been covered with milkweed bugs and aphids all summer. I've recently overcome a lifelong squeemishness and squash aphids on site! Yuck. I've researched the NJ tea and the Northern Bayberry before. They are real possibilities that I'd sort of forgotton about. I really have been waiting for a way to get other people's experience if possible. I haven't met any one locally that is into wildlife gardening. There are a few older people around, but they have the traditional New England garden plants. By the way, I'm not exclusively into natives but I do want wildlife friendly. I have Lantana and New Guinea Imatiens in my baskets because the hummers love them and they survive for me. Also, I have the fennel and we have lots of wild honeysuckle around which also host the tiger swallowtail. The butterfly weed had monarch cats on it earlier this year too.

Indirt, thanks for sharing your experiences. We had deer browse on nearly everything this spring. Almost didn't get any phlox because they kept pruning those and the butterfly bushes which they're supposed to leave alone. They even nibbled half of the Mountain Laurel off last winter. The Wafer Ash I hadn't considered because the UConn site said it prefers moist soil. The only moist soil I really have is close to the house in a partially shaded corner on one side, and a corner behind the house in full shade. Everything else is pretty shallow soil and well drained. Only adding amendments improves things. In a couple of places where I've been growing plants for years, I have some decent soil.

We have one or two dead trees in the back on our property, but behind us is an undeveloped area with lots of dead trees. Especially since the recent weather extremes we've experienced. We've gotten a cold front through so the windows are open and I can hear the woodpeckers going to town. The smaller one's visit my feeders regularly. And, the rainbarrels are on the list. I've been discussing it with DH. Sometimes getting the ball rolling around here is hard. Soaker hoses are installed in all but two of the gardens, and if I can get back out there, I've purchased more for the remainder.

At some level we must be doing okay. We have lots of butterfly visitors and hummingbird moths. A variety of finches, nuthatches, titmice, wrens, doves, cardinals, downey woodpeckers, etc. We have a bumper crop of rabbits, chipmunks, squirrels, moles ): and of course the deer. If you count the insect pests, we're doing fantastically well! It's a work in progress. Each year a little bit better. I know a lot more that I did last year at this time, that's for sure.

Anyway, thank you all because your experiences are invaluable and this is just the sort of commentary I was hoping to receive.

Hey, Viburnumvalley, I just noticed poison ivy on your list. I've got a bumper crop of those too!

I leave a few poison ivy plants on my property specifically for the migrating birds. I'm not saying I allow them to exist anywhere close to where kids play but I do grow them here.

Hey candyinpok, I was just trying to figure out what kind of pH you might have there. Blueberries generally prefer acidic soil.

Perhaps you are looking for more info to help attract something specific you would really like to see in your yard?

There was a wonderful thread for books on that subject - Equi do you remember where that thread is?

Ugh, I know exactly which thread you are referring to and I can't for the life of me recall where it is. That's going to take some hunting to track down.

Equilibrium, we have acid soil. My lilac that my mom gave me is not happy. Indirt, I spent quite a while at the book list on Dave's site, and ordered more than I can tell you. One of which was the Northeast book I mentioned above.

I haven't gotten specific yet. It's kind of hard for me to focus. I'm loving the woodpeckers this year. There's one coming to the feeders next to my computer that's having a running argument with the chickadees and they're very noisy. I've also tried to encourage hummers this year. Bought a highly recommended feeder, made my own red-dye-free nectar and they only go to the impatiens and the Lantana hanging baskets. Last year I had a bumper crop of Hummingbird Moths that I found fascinating. There here again this year but they're much smaller than last year's. We've enjoyed the butterflies and many insects. Guess I'm just exploring. My husband wants a variety of fruit and veges while I prefer the flowers and would like to improve my color balance, bloom sequence, and general esthetics while remaining wildlife friendly.

Any way, I'm looking forward to the arrival of the books I ordered while I've learned a fantastic amount from just browsing threads here and at other forums. Really the personal experience of others seems more relevant to me than alot of the books most of the time. But that said, I value the references, and use several of the books I have regularly. The recommendations at the book list were really helpful. I found it through the tab up top named Bookworm.

Oh oh oh! Acid pH! What fun! Lots of goodies that will not only survive but thrive in acid that other people can't grow. Now I have to tell you that American Cranberry Bush is coming to mind as a plant you may want to take a close look at. Consider planting it where you planted the blueberries.

Well that's an idea. Since we water the blueberries, we'd water it all at once.