I was looking at my sister Tami's new Hoyas . She asked about her new H. phyllura having its named changed to H. Clemensioium...Then David brings up an old post about his turning out to be H.Cinnamonifolia......Well my H.phyllura that I got from Smolley does not look like Sisters plant or any of the H.cinnamonifolua's i could pull up on the net..............So what do I call mine ????Just leave as named with a big ?????
Sandy
OK I am really confused now
Sandy, I am with you! I too am confused.
But, I think the confusion is because we have a bunch of folks here with an incorrectly labeled H. phyllura (http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/466598/). And, while one of them might be an H. cinnamomifolia, that doesn't mean all of the incorrectly labeled H. phyllura are, in fact, H. cinnamomifolia.
I suspect that folks here who got them from different places, also probably have different plants (all of which are incorrectly labeled). Literally, every single person with an incorrectly labeled H. phyllura, may have a completely different hoya from each other.
Now the fun really begins with trying to find their correct identities, which all of our experts will tell us, cannot be done by examining the leaves alone - one must wait until the plant blooms in order to have any possibility of correct identification.
Ann
This message was edited Aug 5, 2006 5:51 PM
Good point, Ann - and Sandy. There are those who don't care what their hoyas are labeled and so they don't really care what name it goes out in a trade or sale as. This compounds the problems even MORE.
A good rule of thumb (which I wish someone had told me when I first began) is with a trade, as where 'they' got their plant, and before that? and before that? and then keep a record of it.... Sometimes a true identity (or mistake in ID) can be found that way....
It IS a 'pother' (as Pooh says)...but I think that's what makes this a fun hobby. It really isn't "she/he who dies with the most hoyas wins" anymore....
I am not big on names----Sure, I hope they are all correct and I hope I get the correct names with the plants I send to others...But I get really crazy when I think I have one thing --find out it is another just to have that name wrong too........I still have NO clue what the true name of my Hoya Phyllura---Maybe I have the real one !!!!! Sandy
just reread your post Carol---Take care of yourself , cuz if you die you win !!!!!! HEEE-HEEE
Ok I am more confused---Is it not the seller who are selling us our plants with these names ??? I find that there is more correcting of names going on in these forums then we will ever see in most seller shops.....
Sandy
I had a phyllura and it bloomed out to be cinnamomfolia,Still have the plant....And that plant did come from witt's as phyllura...Hope this helps..Dianne
Well... Sellers sell the plants they get from other sellers, right? Or...they sell or trade plants they get from buddies on the Internet. I remember getting a plant from a trade called H. bolero (or something like that). When trying to find the correct name, I wrote to that person and asked where they got it....and that person disappeared and I have never heard from them or of them again. Hmmmmm.
Take, for instance, David Liddle. Now I have gotten 70% of all of my plants from him....with IML numbers. And....it is often by chance...that I learn that a name is changed-(H. javanica, H. clandestina, H. tdagasmmengexzxzii(??)...and I learn about it by 'lurking' where I know David will post for people to read. He certainly can't go around sending emails to everyone who has ever bought the hoya he is changing the name of. If my plant isn't from him....I prevail upon him to verify IDs once it flowers and I have done the research I can. There is another authority in Hoya IDs, but she only makes herself available to those she favors...and I am not one of them. Ted Green and Ann Wayman are other sources. EVEN with David Liddle...I try to find other sources and resources to compare opinions. Just like bellybuttons...everyone has an opinion.
Now...this is just me...because I am 'out there'. Lots of people don't like that about me...but that is me. I want to know as much of the truth as I can....and I think EVERYone is like that too ... but the research and the 'discoveries' are made all of the time with no way to get it down to us....the little people.
So...it makes a muddle.
Yes, Dianne...mine was H. cinnamomifolia too!
I wonder if H. phyllura really exists in the trade?
Edited to say that I am NOT referring to Burton in the above.
This message was edited Aug 6, 2006 6:56 AM
Well, Carol. I guess you are joining a long line of people who try to get to the root of things and irritate people in the process. I have seen lots of horrible things written about the likes of Dale Kloppenberg, for example, yet I don't see many other people producing the amount of literature for the hoya hobbiest that he has. Of course he gets things wrong, but the point is at least he's making what he knows available to anyone who is interested in finding out more information.
Well, collectively we can all find little bits of information, share it with each other, and create a holistic set of information. Happily, we have Ann Wayman (she has such a pretty first name - lol) who has much to offer us, and who is, like Dale, willing to share her knowledge freely.
There was a thread, a while back, where we talked about the accension numbers, which stay the same even if the names change (however many sellers and traders don't keep track of these, as Carol attested to in the above post). I am reposting two of the posts here, so people can see the pertinant parts of the discussion without having to go back and find the thread, and people can get a better understanding of why the whole names issue becomes "a muddle":
markroy68
San Francisco, CA
Jul 2, 2006
7:48 PM
So anyway... Those numbers are David Liddle's acquisition numbers. The IML stands for Iris Marie Liddle, David's wife. Since David is probably the foremost authority around on Hoyas and sells them as well, lots of people use his acquisition numbers as a point of reference. When other dealers, such as Smoley's, who obviously buy from David as many of the descriptions are veritably the same, buy David's plants they often give the plant their own acquisition number and use that in their own catalog. It would probably be less confusing for all if they used the IML numbers in their catalog and saved their own acquisition numbers for in-house use. It just goes to show you how something meant to organize things can get out of hand, as everyone ends up using their acquisition #s in their catalog and people start assuming that that is part of the plants true and only identification.
That being said, I think we should use the IML numbers as a point of reference, though only if the plants come from David Liddle or a reputable grower who passes that number on to buyers. All motoskeis, for example, would not correspond to Liddles IML 149, as the plant has been collected from the wild many times, and each plant that came into David's possesion of it would have a diferent acquisition number. The IML number represents one particular clone (genetic individual, such as you or I) of a plant.
AlohaHoya
Keaau, HI
Zone 11
Jul 2, 2006
11:02 PM
Well said, Mark. Annnnnnnd - the different IML numbers for one species indicates the differnt clones of that one species...some of which are ssp. but others are simply 'just another pottsii' for instance. There are numerous H. verticillata, pottsii, erythrostemma, macgillivrayii, australis, lacunosa...on and on. But the, for instance, H. diptera I got from a local nursery does not have an IML # ONLY THE H. diptera I BOUGHT FROM LIDDLE does. It is fun to see a pot of H. pottsii, or erythrostemma or H. lacunosa and see they are all the same species... It is sad that Bob Smoley doesn't keep the IML #...it is hard to trace some of his labels without it.
I was asked by David to use his IML# as part of the indentification of the plant. I agreed to. Other than his, I use their origens and who they came from in my own records...it is a good idea.