Which is best or are they equal? I have some rabbit pellets available but the rabbitry wants me to pay for them. We have yet to agree on a price. I found another rabbitry in the paper and will attempt to call them. But I also have alfalfa meal on hand and I wonder if there is any advantage to useing the rabbit pellets since I will always have the meal on hand. I use it for cat litter and can use it before or after the cats get it in the litter box. After they use it I put it in the compost pile because I think I have burned plant roots with it used in the litter box and not composted. I can let it set for a year or more in the compost pile.
Alfalfa meal or rabbit droppings?
Hey I like that idea. I am going to use it in my cat litter box and see what happens. I am tired of dumping clay into my garbage. I would compost it (cat litter) for a few months with some carbon material. IE shredded newspaper, garden trimmings, or leaves.
Rabbit pellets are good cause they can be used right on the plant as they come out. No composting needed. But I think that other free sources of nitrogen composted is better. IE grass clippings.
We live in the country so there aren't the rules and regs. to control what we do with a lot of stuff. I use to fill mud holes in the drive with clay cat litter after it had been used. I also used any old wallboarding I could get ahold of and break up.
I have found another rabbit breeder and he will charge about $25 for a 4' X 8' X 2' trailer load of the droppings. We will help him to scoop them because he is 84 years old.
That is cheap lawn fertilizer. I'll take about 10 truck loads. How many rabbits does he have?
Unfortuneately he he lives in Cole Carmp, MO so that would be a long trip for you . I'll go down next week and get the trailer load. We want ot make sure his son is there to help do the scooping. I got a feed sack full for a dollar today as I have some plants to move and feed well before going after the larger amountI have 'tea' making from some of it. . I think agout 3 loads will do Holly and I thru the year. They will help to rot down the wood chips and shavings from the bird house and what the road district brings us. I can also use it to help build back up the raised beds. They seem to sink every year. So stable cleanings, rabbit droppings. triple super phospate, and some good potash should bring things into balance for next years. I certainly wish Shad was here to help me. .
I think you are right on with the soil ammendments. Good job! I need to add more bone meal to my soil to help with the bloomers. Where do you get Triple super phosphate and how long does it take to be available to the soil.
I get the super triple phosphate at my local garden center. Since it is so concentrated I don't need to use a lot. I'm not sure just what a 5# bag costs but it must not be over $5 or $6 dollars or I wouldn't be buying it. Since bone meal is kind of pricey and we have a lot of bulbs I'm going to try switching to oyster shell like you would feed chickens. The garden center man said it would have the calcium like the bone meal. I'm sure they will be slower release if left in pieces like they come so I think some will go thru the VitaMix blender and I'll see how that works.
Yeah but the oyster shell doesn't have the phosphorous. I want the phosphorous out of the bone meal. Not the calcium we have enough of that in the soil here.
That is interesting. He was telling me the oyster shell was a good substitute for the bone meal. Maybe that is because he knows I already buy the TSP. Thanks for letting me in on this info.
Bone Meal is 2 parts Calcium and one part Phosphorous. I know cause I am a veterinarian. That is why I use bone meal. It has some Nitrogen, Bone marrow (Blood meal) in the ground up bone. Also it breaks down slowly and is able to be used for a long time.
Well, I guess I have a LOT of oyster shell for the chickens to eat! I'm so glad you told me that about the bone meal. So many people are afraid of the Mad Cow Disease that bone meal can be hard to find. Livestock feed stores are no longer allowed to stock it because it might contaminate the livestock feed. Or so they are told. I have also been told that we process our bone meal differently here in the US than most of the rest of the world so ours should not have the danger theirs does. One never knows what to believe any more. So many lies being told and so much fear being peddled.
I cannot imagine the differences in processing. I'm sure all the bone left is made into meal. That includes the mad cow infectious waste brain and spinal cord. I know that mad cow is a serious problem for the cows of this world but I personally don't fear it in my life. My sister went to Kirkistan (sp) and was offered the choice piece of meat a couple of years ago. Sheep brain. I have kept my eyes on her just seeing that she doesn't get mad. LOL
I've read that the rest of the world doesn't steam treat their bonemeal and the US does. However some would have us believe that even prolonged steam treament doesn't kill this pathogen. I use bone meal without fear but my DH is concerned about it. So far he has not demanded that I not use it. I have heard of supposed cases of it in the US that supposedly came from the person using bonemeal in the garden but have not read anything that actually substanuates the claims. So I will continue to use bonemeal. I think fear makes us more vulnerable to disorders or at least makes us think we may have something wrong when it is something entirely different.
Amen. Do you know how long Mad Cow has been around? Now that we can test for it and write exciting news articles in the national press it now is something to be concerned about. Life without concern for the impossibles in infectious medicine is quite pleasurable. After all we all are going to die so why live in fear?
I agree that we shouldn't live in fear, and I've not heard of anyone having problems from bonemeal in the garden, either, with or without a mask. But it is actually true that neither heat nor cold kills the kind of protein (prion) in Mad Cow/BSE. That's fascinating molecular biology.
I want to step back to the original question... and in my experience when pondering compost ingredients ... "free" is a key word.
Thanks, JPW. But I have learned quite a bit here on this thread. Now it seems I'll have to pay $25 to get a 4' X 8' X 2' load which is about like a pickup load. It is about 35 miles away but they will load it for me. We think that is a reasonable price. After all it did cost the rabbitry to feed all those rabbits and it is pure manure. No bedding as we would get from a stable.
I have heard of a stable in Raytown which is about 85 west of us and about 15 - 20 miles from our DD in Independence that gives away the stable cleanings just to get rid of them. So they can bring us pickup loads when they come in the pickup. Or I could take the trailer behind the van when I go see them.
I am always looking for free s.... I never pay for it but I probably would that rabbit stuff. I am driving over 18 miles to get my mushroom compost and 12 miles for my dairy delight from the almost empty pit silos. My wife and I hook our trailor on to the pick up and take off for a sunday drive. We come home with rocks, firewood, bark, manure, compost, plants, and an occasional empty banana split container. Life is good. Look at this log I got out deer hunting.
I used to get all the free rabbit droppings that I wanted from my BIL. His kids had gotten some baby bunnies for easter a few years ago and they have been a god send (at least for me anyway).
But gosh darn it - if he didn't catch on to the benefits of the rabbit droppings. This spring I went over to pick up my container (I keep a large rubber maid container with holes punched in the bottom under his rabbit cages) and the thing was empty.
I asked "Hey what happened to the droppings"
He said "I used them on MY garden"
DARN IT! I now have to share the droppings with him....
There is a web site that links rabbit owners with gardeners ... but its been my experience that there are more gardeners on that site than there are rabbit owners.
I think that rabbit farm selling their manure is a bit brash, its a waste product for them that they have to get rid of... If they are loading it and delivering it - I can see paying the delivery fee... but if you go pick it up yourself it should be free.
This message was edited Aug 1, 2006 8:20 AM
I like the log, kind of looks like an arrow through the heart
Having raised rabbits I can tell you that the 'waste' product cost a bundle to produce. Maybe you should get yourself some rabbits and then you can have all the droppings to yourself. :>) You could also then have all the work that goes into caring for those bunnies and maybe even some meat for the table. I still have one miniRex buck but it is easier for me to just keep him in the house and not have to fool with frozen water dishes or water that got hot in the summer, feed that got rained on or mice in it or that some bunny pottyed in, etc. Just a half a dozen meat type bunnies will likely give you all the droppings you want. Especially if you will mix them with stable cleanings, kitchen scraps, grass clippings, old hay, etc. Then let some chickens run loose & have freedom to go under the rabbit cages and you won't have to turn it every few days. They will do enough scratching to do the mixing for you & produce eggs and maybe meat of the table also. If I was younger and in better health I would have the half a dozen rabbits out there. We use to sell butchered rabbits but I got to a point that I just could not kill them anymore. I could have a single bunny from pen to pan in 7 min. or less.
SFD, that yard is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us. My goodness you must put a lot of work into it. And the log is neat. Not that I have the creative ability to think of using it like that but I'm so glad GOD gave you that ability. I saved a bunch of rocks for a few years with the idea of making one of those rock fence post with the ring of wire around it but never got around to it. So I gave them to our DIL Holly who make very lovely use of them and others she and our son Kyle collected.
I have a request that is a bit different for my DG friends. If any of you believe in the power of prayer please pray that the little dog I brought home yesterday will become a barking alarm dog. Other than that she is very good. We still have to work on the poultry issue but that is normal for a terrier who has never seen such creatures . The kitten problem will work its way thru. After all, the kitten started it and being a terrier Penney has reacted very normally. Today she is ok but I have been careful to keep them apart. I did let one of our older cats teach her to leave her alone.
It is already hot here this morning. I need to get to town and get animal food. Don't really want to do this right now, but the meds will kick in before long and then I'll be up to it. I use to be such a morning person and was out of bed and active before sunup. Now I barely drag myself thru the mornings and start to come alive so to speak with the second dose of meds at noon. For those of you who don't know already, I have battled Fibromyalgia since about age 5. Didn't get an accurate diagnosis until I was about 56 so much of my life was spend takeing meds that helped some but never addressed the real issues and sometimes was accused of being a mental case who invented symptoms to get out of doing things I supposedly didn't want to do. That diagnosis set me free from so much and then I was able to seek out doctors who would treat me more effectively. It has gone into remission so to speak for various time periods but it always comes back with a vengence.
GOD bless and keep each of you.
I understand that feeding the rabbits cost money. And if you listen to my brother in law he swears that their output is greater than their input :- )
I would hope that a rabbit farm's profit comes from the sale of their product (meat and fur) rather than the sale of their waste? I understand recouping some costs. And if the demand is high enough they can charge what ever they want for their poop.
I am sure your terrier will start barking as soon as he establishes himself as part of the new pack. Terriers are famous for barking - and if he is new - he just needs some time to get accustomed to the surroundings. When he establishes this new place as his place - the territorial barking will begin and probably never stop :- )
This message was edited Aug 1, 2006 10:00 AM
Joe, the little dog is a female. We have had females who were great watch dogs. How long do you think this might take? 2 weeks? She seems to have settled in very well so far. We are sure she is much more than 18 months old. I really want this to work out for her sake too. To have to go back to the shelter would be such a blow to her emotionally. Especially since she would have no idea why she failed to please us. As a kennel dog I'm sure she was taught early in life to not bark. That may be hard to overcome. Please pray for her.
I think it might take at least two weeks, maybe more depends upon the situation.
It is slightly ironic that you would take a dog back because it doesn't bark enough...
You may need to teach her to bark like you want her to... have you barked with her... or howled with her? Show her what you want her to do... all dogs want to do is please the leader, well except for hound dogs : - )
How large is she?
Try to excite the dog when visitors knock on the door, etc. But you might regret this later...
According to my bathroom scales she weighs 13# and measures 13" at the shouldrers I weighed myself and then weighed myself holding her.
Yes, I have tried barking but she gives me a curious look as if wondering what I am doing that for. However she is very intellegent and has found that she has a voice which she is not being punished for using so there is hope. I'll try the excited trick. Anything to make her bark an alarm when someone comes. She has barked quite a bit at some of the cats and rather than punish her more than to say "no" and "not cats", I just remove the cat from the area.
I know what you mean by it being ironic that I would take her back for not barking. Many dogs end up at a shelter for barking. I wonder if I am expecting her to be another Sugar. Sugar was a RT/Chihuahua cross who was a wonderful little watch dog as well as a wonderful pet and best friend. She was killed by a snake bite about 7 years ago and I miss her so much. We had her for about 4 or 5 years.
Jack was very suprisingly ready to welcome Penny to the family. Met me at the door and petted and talked to her when I got home with her. I had expected him to tolerate her nicely but not really like her. He said today it looks as tho we have a new dog. And our little 2 1/2 year old grandson just loves her. She let him pick her up last night but she is a bit to heavy for him to carry around so she struggled free. Then his mother made him stop trying to pick her up. But that laid to rest the warning that she and the others from that mill were not for homes with children. I am sure they are just protecting themselves. I know I would in their situation. Better to say she isn't safe for children than to be sued because they didn't say that and a dog bites a child.
Little Skyler came up a while ago(I turned off the modem about 2 hours ago)and decided to stay and play with Penny, then he went back and insisted that his mother come up so we visited for a while before she went back down to do some garden work before it got totally dark. Skyler has stayed and is now playing with a toy pickup truck. He got bored with 'puppy' since she doesn't do anything more interesting than his or any other dog. This is the first time in a long time he has come just to visit us and play at our house. I will walk back down with him when he is ready to go home. It's only about a block or so away across the pasture so our yards join and he is familiar with the path home. I'm trying to encourage him to go back to his mommy as it is getting late. But he wants 'puppy' to go with him.
Man it is hot outside. I hate to go outside for even a few minutes. But I know I have to sometimes. Right now I have the hose on the pear trees. The Dutchess is dropping pears and that means it is dry. I went ahead and put it over on the Red Seckel a bit ago because it has been struggling all summer anyway.
I just bought 11 bags of rabbit droppings (the bags were feed bags that held 50#) and I paid 1$ a piece.
We're going back next week for some more. This gal raised meat rabbits, worms and castings, had a nice operation. She has decided after many years to quit the business, so she's letting me buy the droppings. Before this the worms ate all of them and she would only sell the worms and castings. I'm sure going to miss her castings, they were wonderful-- 5$ for 2 cubic ft., and so fresh and full of eggs.
I should raise some myself but I really don't want to. Is it ok to spread all the droppings around the garden now and let it Winter over?--- I'd cover it with straw.I keep a lot of worms in one of my compost bins, but it's a pain screening them out. I hate to put them in the ground because I know they'd die. I just keep screening and keeping them in only one bin. They are happy little campers, multiply like crazy!!
I think you could spread them now. That is suppose to be the really good thing about rabbit droppings. I don't know anything about your growing conditions at this time of the year. Covering them with straw to help the worms is a good idea as is the screening to keep most of them in one bed. I have lost a lot of worms to our ducks and banty chickens. It is also so dry that many have gone way down to escape the heat and dryness.
Thanks Leaflady-- My neighbors think I'm a bit nuts when they see me out fooling with my compost and worms, but I don't care, they love the veggies I share with them. Not one other person I know here composts-- really strange, we all have at least a couple of acres, seems a shame to me.
Leaflady, has your dog started barking yet?
Rabbit droppings are one of the few manures that can be applied directly to a garden without composting first.
No, she is still silent except when one of the other dogs comes close to me. Then she whines and yips some because she has claimed me as HER person. I keep reminding her that I was their person long before she showed up. I'm going to see a 5 month old MinPin/Peke cross female puppy who is suppose to be a ferocious barker on Monday. I have seen pictures and she is a doll. The fearless barker fits both breeds according to what I have seen over the years and the AKC Complete Dog Book. Maybe she will get Penny started barking like a Rat Terrier should.
I know I added rabbit droppings without composting.
leaflady, do you know of other sources in Missouri of large volumes of compost, manure, etc? We are building a house and will be finished soon. They will be doing the final grading of the lot, and we are going to need lots of good materials to put on top, the soil is really poor, lots of clay and rocks. I know they will probably bring in dump trucks of what they are calling "black dirt", which I assume is probably just top soil. I would like to find a source where you could possibly get dump trucks of compost, maybe mushroom compost, or something along those lines to add to the top soil.
MaryinLa, I have to say I am so jealous of the opportunity you have! I keep finding scraps of shingles and brick and wiring from thirty years ago, let alone the clay and rocks that got pushed around and compressed in the 'terraforming'.
If leaflady doesn't have any suggestions, try calling anybody you can think of: county ag extension office, ag department at a university, any public gardens or arboretum, horse race tracks or farms, landscapers...
Congatulations and good luck with your new house and garden
Every place has its source of nitrogen. You just need to find it. Many cities have compost piles free for the forking. For the lawn I moved into a new house and was like you overwhelmed with garden start up. So the lawn was just clay and rocks with seed emerging. I have spent years building up that unamended soil with grass mulching not cutting, Milorganite fertilizer, and airiating it with a deep hole punch every spring. Mine now is 8 to 10" of dark wormy soil with a gradual interface to lower poor soil. Though if I were you I would start at least with some 8" of sandy loam or what ever they call top soil in your area.
This is my lawn after 2 months of no watering from well water failure. Its ugly but still thriving except where the septic field is.
As has been said,every place has its supply of organic materials. You just need to start asking for it. Most stables and farmers will give it to you. Some charge $10 - $20 a pickup load but it is usually loaded for you. Look for rabbit breeders in your area. They get an abundance of droppings from those little critters. Contact landscapers for grass clippings. Just to be on the safe side, mix them well with browns and let them compost well for at least one season. If you don't get good natural moisture hose it down occasionally. You want to clear out any herbicides that might have been used on the lawns. Most yard herbicides only kill broad leaf weeds so they would be safe to spread on an area you want to plant grass in right away if you want to. Also contact you nearest fair sized town about getting leaves in the fall/winter. Our nearest one, Sedalia, brings out dump truck loads of them to us free. We do have to deal with the bags of course and that is a nuisance, but leaves totally rotted down are wonderful soil. It takes about 2 years for leaves to turn into dirt if you do nothing with them(including leaving them in the bags). A dump truck around here usually equals about 40 - 50 bags of leaves.
I hope this helps.
Thanks, I did some searching and did find that Springfield has a municipal compost facility. It isn't free, but is pretty inexpensive for a truck load of compost.
And early this year there was some place locally that my brother-in-law was able to get a pickup truck bed full of cow manure for free, so he got it in about February or so, 2 trucks full, and tilled it in the vegetable garden. So I know I can find a source for that, too. I was just hoping to find some source to get very large quantities to put over the lawn, we have 5 acres, but probably only about 1 acre will be in lawn, that's a lot of compost, lol.
This message was edited Aug 31, 2006 10:00 PM
Inch by inch everything is a cinch. Do pieces of it at a time. Otherwise your will hate the monster project. I have done 1 1/2 acres of our 3 acres and keep it small to rest and enjoy. Just a thought. Buy a cow and turn it loose. LOL
I totally agree about keeping the project small. Do just the raised beds for a year or so until they are well established. Then pick a corner or small area and work on it for a year or so. Soferdig is so right about getting to hate the monster project because it is just too large to do it all and get it right at one time.
MaryinLA,
Or buy a sheep. We got the idea of large lawns from England where they use sheep to keep them mowed. And I think sheep are kind of cute and, sorry to say, tasty.
I lucked out this summer. We have community horse stables and when I went out there to get some free horse manure, I saw some really different horses -- actually they were llamas. I quickly drove home and checked the internet. As it turns out, llama manure is another one that doesn't need composting. I shoveled up what there was and spread it on my squash patch. I have the best looking squashes I have ever had. LLama manure looks like rabbit or deer manure -- pellets, just a bit larger than either rabbit or deer.
Soferdig, FrankinOh started a forum asking about composting with mushroom, you might try to answer his question. I would definately pay the $25 for a truck load of rabbit manure if I could get some locally. My stepdad swears by it and he uses it fresh. He raises them just for their manure. I found a site once about manures for fertilizer and rabbit was number one. I am going to plant some alfalfa, rye, and some lagume ( I believe it was australian winter peas?), as soon as my order from the internet comes in as a winter cover crop to plow in the spring as a green manure. Leaflady, I think if your garden is big enough, I would buy the rabbit manure and also compost the alfalfa with cat candy, as my dogs so lovingly call it. Take care, Mike