News about H. clemensiorum

The short version is that I don't have it!

Having been ID'd by someone who's opinion I respected...I have thought I had two clones of H. clemensiorum: One with very thick veins in the cardboardy type leaf and the other not such outstanding venation but otherwise the same. David Liddle wrote me that the H. clemensiorum pictured in my Photo Compendium is NOT H. clemensiorum but similar to one he saw in a nursery in Borneo but that the species is NOT from Sabah. I am going to call this one H. sp. Abas.

The second hoya, photo attached, he says is not H. clemensiorum either! Since I did not get it from him, I cannot put his IML # with it...but simply call it H. sp. aff. clemensiorum.

Apparently this H. finlaysonii group is extremely complicated and a new one keeps popping up all the time!!! Cheech...just when I thought it was safe to go out!!!

Carol

Carol, doesn't all of this naming business just seem futile sometimes? I just can't help thinking of that Shakespear quote......

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other word would smell as sweet."

I know that I love all of my hoyas, I love their leaves, the way they grow, when they flower.....still I like to know what they are called, it does help with the collecting. Oh well, so it goes. bummer huh? Thank you so much for keeping us informed. I am off to add the new term to my Hoya clemensiorum card, on my Hoya index card ring. I try to keep track of what I bought, from whom and when, as well as any other pertinent info.
Sara



This message was edited Jul 19, 2006 7:52 PM

I agree...it IS frustrating...drives me bonkers. I care about nomenclature because I consider selling a hoya under the wrong name (IF you know the 'correct' one) close to lying...and I am a real paranoid about truth. But then...the 'correct' name is so darn elusive.

Here is how I see it: Various collectors have gone out (in the distant past...not the recent ones)...they collected and they pressed the flower parts, described the plants and that was the "type" for that plant. OK...in the old days, these guys were on sailing ships .... were the vines mixed up when the ship took a dip...did they all get sloshed on brandy while they were writing this? Who knows. But....we have to take their word as 'gospel'. Enter the modern collectors: Liddle, Green, Kloppenberg, etc. First they collect then they go thru all of the collected material to see if it HAS been collected and published. Going by what they understand the published material to be (or not to be), they publish their collection (or not). Wow... They are comparing such things as the teeny tiny differences in the pollinia and the anther wings etc.... What if Schlechter or one of the 'oldies' was sloshed during a storm as he was measuring and the measurements weren't correct? Like...lots of things could happen, right?

So...what does this all mean to me...in the long run? I trust the labels I get from David Liddle, Ted Green, Ann Wayman, Anders Wenstrom....but I leave space on them for changes. I have learned to keep track of the names of the plants and who they come from...because each of those 4 collectors could have 4 different plants with the same name. I like mysteries...so I kinda get a kick out of discovering I am wrong and trying to ferret out the truth(whatever that is, that day in that form).

Frankly? I don't believe most hoyas are identified correctly and that in the next 30 years we are going to be shocked when DNA becomes less expensive and used in identifying hoyas. I think there is going to be a number of shockers....when the H. finlaysonii group is sorted out, when the verticillata/acuta group is sorted out.

And...more hoyas are collected, researched...disputed.

I think we ought to give them names like Mildred, Hortense...you know...NAMES!

Carol, I really appreciate you providing this update. I too will be "changing" the name of my plant formerly known as H. clemensiorum to H. sp. Abas.

By the way, why "Abas"???

Putting aside, just for a moment, the frustration of obtaining (and then selling) plants you thought were legitimately named by respected people in the field, as well as putting aside the losers who just rename a plant so they can sell more ... there is something slightly exhilerating to the quest of figuring out these plants.

This kind of thing just goes to show you that the field of botony is not static, nor are the researchers and "experts" perfect. It is, I think, an example (perhaps a frustrating example) of the constant evolution of knowledge - with new findings, new taxonomic designations, etc. - even for something so "lowely" as the common hoya! And while it can be a tad frustrating, it's also kind of neat to know that we are all somehow involved (even those of us on the sidelines) in that evolutionary process.

I will go tell my H. clemensiorum ... erm, ahem... H. sp. Abas that it has a new name.

:-o

This message was edited Jul 20, 2006 1:45 PM

This is funny: the name of the man who owns the nursery where the hoya was seen...his name is Abas. Works as well as a town, country or city name for me!!!

Carol

Carol and all you other folks that are hazy about H. clemensiorum. Ted Green collected this plant in Western Borneo in late 1980's or early 1990's. He grew it, and it flowered sometime around 1993. He brought cuttings of it to one of our IHA meetings and I was the first to buy one of the cuttings. Ted's the guy that collected it, grew it, named it H. clemensiorum Green, and still has it for sale. I gave a cutting to one of the DG members who responded to my free cumingiana cuttings..just can't remember who it was. I'm sending a photo here from my digital camera but have some better ones (I hope) in my Yashica camera which I use for foliage shots. The veins on this plant are so distinctive that they just can't be confused with any other.
Annie

It was me, I have the cutting! The veins in the leaves are absolutely Gorgeous! I love the hoyas that have the really neat leaves. It seems to be rooting quite easily too! There is two new growths just appearing! Thanks again Ann!!


Here is my baby plant!

Oh, wow. That is absolutely STUNNING foliage.
OK, so now we know exactly what the H. clemensorium is, as well as the (for now) H. sp. Abas and H. sp. aff. clemensiorum identities. I love this genus!
Ann

I also have H. clemensiorum from Ted. Ann I like the coloring it gets along the rim. And of course your flower and photo are great.

Yes, David sent me a photo of the leaf. Mine (ID'd by another 'well known collector') is very much like yours, but it is wider and a deep deep green. Did you look at the photo in the link, Ann? I was told that the hoya in the picture was simply another clone. The backs of the two are identical.

Well...Another on my want list. I guess a girl can't be too thin, too tan, or have too many hoyas!!!