Name Cultivars!

I like E.Willis and others who have the passion to spread the plumie bug around but,
there is one thing that has always bother me...
I dont like the fact that he and many others can come down to florida and register
our plumerias and put them in their name as their cultivars.
I am all for spreading the goodwill but alot of people have known about our plumerias much longer then him..
I think florida plumies deserve their own names and no one person should have their name
on them..
When i see other legends in this field most of their cultivars were created by their hard work..
Maybe it's me and i am just ranting but i think the PSA should be on top of this..
They should have guidelines when someone wants to register a plumie like ex: Is this your own creation? Is this already growing in the wild? If it is already growing then submit your photos and info on this plant along with the local name of the plant and your name will be on record as the one who submitted it and not as your cultivar.

I hope i don't get anyone upset but as someone who has been around plumies all his life i see a bad trend in the plumie world.
We already have too many names for the same plant and this confuses many who are new to the plumie world.
I was thinking about this the other day when Clare posted she and others were debating in another forum about the Aztec Gold.
The Aztec Gold is our plumie plain and simple so why is the Aztec in her name? Looking at the PSA website in more detail i see alot of our plumies listed and someone who was on vacation or just passing by saw our plumies and ran off and submitted
the paperwork and pass it off as their own cultivars.I know i am not alone in this as many local growers have told me they feel the same way.This has cause a rift in the plumie world and this is why i think many elite growers don't submit their plumies to the PSA.The plumie societies (all of them) needs to get together on this and have a set standard like bringing in the OZ plumies and Thai plumies along with many species found thruout the south like florida,mexico,south america,and central america.

The PSA is still a new compare to the rest of the plant world so they should be more flexible and unique in their approach on trying to catalogue all these plumies..
If one of you were traveling to florida or someplace in the world and found a plumie you thought was different and new.
Why not do a little research on the tree and find the history on the tree from the locals.If the tree has a name or several names the locals call it then why can't the PSA start a poll on their website with all the names from the locals and let the plumie world as a whole vote on a name. Ok maybe this is too far out there for them but i see the nameing problem snowballing over the years and it has come to a point to where no one has a clue on where their seedlings came from or many peeps selling wrong cultivars or mislabeled plumies on Ebay. I know there are some sellers on ebay who do this on purpose i am talking about
the local sellers who sell plumies from their backyard.You can take the plumie i call Florida Pink for example.If i gave you a cutting of her and you grafted it or seeded her with a named cultivar then you gave or sold her seedlings or cuttings to someone years later,the end result would be a plumie no one knows where it came from.I see this already when peeps sell off a cutting on ebay and say for example: This pretty plumie smells good and she is from the "Named Cultivar" and/or "Unknown" stock.

*On a side note*
I think the plumie world should use the approach the Orchid world is using and make it a must to label the plumies correctly.
The orchids sold on ebay or in your local garden center have tags on them with their crosses labeled on them.
I am thinking the plumie tags should look like this [scott pratt x celadine] or something similar.This cannot be possible if everyone is allow to pass on whatever plumie they find and claim it as theirs.There is not enough information on the plumies
we have already.I as a grower and you as growers should have as much as possible all the info on the plumies we have in our collection. This is very important to know the history of our plumies and its growing habits and traits.If you want to make new hybrid you should know the stock you are trying to mix.

Feel free to add your input or tell me to hush-up!
:)

I think you have addressed 2 different issues that need to be resolved.
1 is someone just randomly naming a plumie they have come across, wether it has a local name or not.
2 is the naming of plumria hybrid seedlings.
If I raise a tree, which many of us have. We can know the seed parent
The pollon parent is often unknown, unless we hand pollonate the seed parent under controlled conditions to prevent self pollonation which often occurs anyway.

I joined the PSA as they are making an attempt to see Plumeria properly named.
You cant just fill out paperwork and submit it and get an approval.
The process is a bit arduous. You must show the flower and plant in existence in 3 seperate locations worldwide, keep many many many 35mm pictures of the flower, leaf, bark and trees growth habit. After these are properly documented then a submission must be made.
This is hardly a fill the form and submit with $20.- for a name process.

I have a tree that was given me as a 10 inch dried up sure to be dead stick LOL!
10 years later voila! 'Mrs. Malestrom' aka 'Cherry Coke' has been named by me.
I will register her in the future after she finds her new homes worldwide.
I will be shipping cuttings to Fla, Tx, Ha and shell also stay here in Pa.
She has to be documented in all 3 areas.
Her seed and pollon parentage cannot be known, so....
There is the opportunity to name her without the recognition of a parent.
There has been much controversy over Aussie varieties being 'look alikes' or being called by named cvs names. I am not sure whats being done about this

I am also quite involved in the raising of seedlings.
If I know the parentage of a seedling I name it as I please with the designation of the parentage to the extent of its knowledge ie..
'Celadine x Slaughter Pink' or 'Celadine x Unknown'
If I raise a seedling I believe its ok to name it as I please so long as the proper designation is there for parentage. True for anyone raising seedlings.
I believe it is dead wrong and even arrogant to go into an area where a plumie has a history and name it as you please when it already has a local name. That is just wrong.

Interesting thread, it could go on for a looong time.
There is so much debate about the naming process too.
35mm film is a must as digital can be manipulated
The number of photos submitted and even taken to get true colors is incredible.
I think the PSA is doing a good thing and making sincere effort in stemming this naming craze.

I removed the previous section posted here as I have confused 2 people.
I confused E. Willis for R. Eggenberger



More later lol I gtg!!

This message was edited Jul 12, 2006 11:14 AM

Good points indeed Mal..
I know it's not just sending in some paperwork but the end result is clear you have one of our
local beauties and passed it along as one of your cultivars.Like you said rude and arrogant!
It would be like me going to Texas or Cali and seeing a plumie in somebody yard and submitting the paperwork after i brought it back to florida but along the way i planted one of the cuttings in Georgia and after the time period i get it register as one of my cultivars.
Hey why don't i buy one of hawaii sandy unregister plumies or some other great ebay seller and after a year or 2 sell the cuttings to other growers around the globe and then claim it as one of my cultivars hehehe..
I know it's a bit extreme, but this is the grey area they created or creating..

On the other issues i think common sense should prevail here when it comes to seedlings.
If you have a plumie and she grows a seedpod and you take the time and effort to care for the seeds and plant them and nourish them thruout their growing process then in my eyes
you help create that new plant.That is your hard work paying off and as such you should have the right to name her as you will..
Many growers have more then 1 plant in their collection and unless you have a ranch most of our plumies are close to each other and 90% of the time those different plumies would not be within 100 miles of each other.With that said did you not just help pollinate one or many of your plumies? I think so and therefore again you should be able to name the newborns any name you want..

On the other issue of the PSA and it's rules for 3 places in the world..
If i understand you right i think this is grey area and not sure where to stand..
If i create a new hybrid how can it be in 3 places in the world? Some growers
would hold on to such rare stock for future seedlings i would think and to curb
fraudulent sales on ebay..
I think the 35mm photos and other things you mention are just fine..

If we allow all growers to name their creations (seedlings) and give them credit after the PSA checks to make sure no one has submitted the same variety then we are encouraging more growers to take the time and effort to create new and more exciting
colors and varieties don't you think?
Of course the 3-5 year wait for flower color should always be in place!

LoL did i stir a hornet nest?

I agree that there is a problem with names in many respects, and there is nothing that can be done about eBay sellers making up names or misnaming cultivars except to avoid those sellers and only buy from reputable eBay sellers.

As Michael said, oftentimes the two parents of a seedling are not known so "Seedling of 'X'" is about the best that can be done if that is known unless the hybridizer made the cross himself in the proper manner.

The disscussion on the other forum involved Penang Peach, also known as Thai Gold, Thai Orange, California Sunset, Som Garasin, and Som Kalasin. This one cultivar with its many aliases illustrates the problem.

The PSA is doing a good thing by registering cultivars from all over the world, and the registering of cultivars is a way to organize and catalog them and document their traits and characteristics, and this will help to keep plumerias from getting multiple names. I don't believe the PSA has ever registered the same plumeria under two different names.

As for who can register and what name should be used, certainly the local name would be ideal, but if the locals didn't register it and won't register it -- as Michael pointed out, it is a process requiring time, effort, and money -- then someone else should, especially if it has been distributed widely over the country over a long period of time. For example, my neighbor has a tree that he said his neighbor brought back from Hawaii 30 years ago. It has been here for 30 years, and it has been in Hawaii for longer than 30 years. It would be nice if locals in Hawaii would register it, but most people don't want the bother. If my neighbor wants to register it and if it is worthy of registration, then he should be able to and is able to.

I am a stickler when it comes to names also; however, as Jim Little put it in his book, there are over 600 registered plumerias with the PSA while there are more than 15,000 unnamed hybrids. The 15,000 number is an estimated number, which I think is quite low. Knowing the name or history is great, but not knowing the name and history of a hybrid does not affect my enjoyment of them.

Great points too Clare..
I once ask my dad who planted many plumerias around our house and other friends houses in the early 50's
did he know what the PSA was and what it stood for..
He reply PS.. what?

I think that most locals don't even know that a PSA exists..
I think it is a matter of respect for the people and place you saw the plumie growing in
it's natural soil..
I am half Hawaiian and we have strong beliefs and much love for our land and things
that come from nature it is in our history our religion of many gods who are depicted
from something of nature.Maybe i am looking at this too much but like you said it cost money and no one has done it.
Why should it cost alot of money to register,is this not throwing another wall up on their efforts to get these plumies catalogue?
If EW and many others want to catalogue our local stuff fine but give credit to these great plants and leave their local names intact.If you take away our names you take away the mystique and history of our natural plants.We have lost so many because of storms do we have to lose more because of someone wanting to compete with another cultivar to have more plumies in their name?
Most locals here don't know someone has register their plumies with another name and have it credited to them..
You want to register one of our plumies fine make some kind of effort to the locals (city officals,florida dept of AG,etc..)
Just because the person registering the plumie is well known doesn't mean the PSA should look the other way is all i am saying..
If they don't do anything about this and other things then most growers will ignore the PSA
and their guidelines.

You get stranded on a deserted island and find a new plumie then thats ok to register it..
:)

LOL now it's getting to a point where i have to look up the history of the next plumie i buy
to make sure it's not growing naturally in my town. It doesn't make sense to spend 30+ dollars on a plant that i could get for free down the street not to mention i thought i was adding a new variety to my collection.
I am glad to get your input Clare and others it is important to me to know if i am out of line in my thinking or do i have valid points..
I know the system can't be perfect but what i ask is not much and can be fix with a stroke of a pen and reissues of certs showing the local names.

How does one know that a particular plumeria is in its "natural soil"? Who's to say that it wasn't native to Mexico and brought to both coasts at the same time? The point I'm trying to make here is that, if you really want to return the plumeria historically to its "naural soil," I think you are going to have a hard time doing that. I think most plumerias were brought to this country from other places. Furthermore, just because a tree is in a particular town, doesn't mean that that tree belongs to only the members of that town. Some would argue that that tree belongs to everyone.



I never said that it cost a lot of money to register a plumeria. I'm sure it is not a lot of money and not cost prohibitive. The PSA wants to see plumerias registered and would not throw up walls, but there has to be a organized uniform process to do it correctly.



If you have a problem with EW, take it up with him privately and not on this public forum. I don't think he is even a member here so he is unable to defend himself against your accusations, which isn't fair to him.

If a local name is known and widely used, then I agree that it should be used in the naming of it; however, that is the option of the person registering it. However, doing some research and asking locals, "Hey, what's the name of this tree," will probably get you the answer "It's a plumeria" if you are extremely lucky. Most people don't even know the scientific or common name of a tree much less its cultivar name. In Hawaii, plumerias are so common that I doubt the locals give them names. Probably some locals call them weeds!

Furthermore, I don't think registering a plumeria means that the person registering it gets "credit" or "ownership rights." It doesn't take away its history or "mystique" in my opinion.

Do you seriously think that city officials or the Dept. of Ag. will know the local cultivar name of a particular tree? I'm not buying that one. Gov't bureaucrats usually have much more serious things to do than to memorize names. They can't even keep the borer beetle under control.



I don't think this is a major problem as I think there are only a handful of local names, and again, I don't think that locals, living around a particular tree, can claim ownership of it. Now, if someone raised it from seed and if it is growing in their yard only, then, yes, someone would need to ask permission to name it and to register it, and that happens all the time.

I don't think any serious plumeria grower will ever ignore the PSA; however, there are hybridizers and growers who choose not to register their plumerias for whatever reason -- perhaps they don't have time for the process -- but these cultivars are in circulation with their given names. I agree that it would be wrong if someone decided to re-name them and register them under a different name. I don't think that could happen because the PSA would recognize that cultivar as being already named by the hybridizer. For example, I don't think Jim Little has registered many of his cultivars with the PSA; yet, it would be wrong for someone to register one of his cultivars under a new name.



There is that word "naturally" again. I don't think it is truly possible to lay claim to being the first and only town to grow certain plumerias. How does one know that it wasn't brought to South Florida originally from some other tropical native land and how does one know that it wasn't brought to other places and countries as well? I have a feeling that there has always been a great deal of plant sharing over the centuries, and conservatories and greenhouses across the nation as well as other tropical and subtropical locations could very well being growing the same plumerias. I think it is difficult to trace the origins of any particular hybrid. It is easier to trace the origins of species, but even that is a science. I really don't see this as a problem, but that is just my opinion.


This message was edited Jul 10, 2006 2:39 PM

Well i never said it belongs to the locals i just said it should keep the local name..
Natural soil is where they thrive reproduce self pollinate..
Plumies grow in tropical zones to sub-tropical zones as we know..
How they got here who knows.. who had them first? does it matter not really!
My whole point was about keeping the local name that way we dont have 50 different versions of the same flower..
Each area of the world has their own kind of variety of plumies..
Central America has their own version just like we have our own versions..
I think you are correct we should all share, god i hope no one thinks that i am saying we don't want to share..



Ok i thought someone said it was expensive..
I agree it has to be organized but across the board not just in small define areas..



Your right it was unfair for me to pick on him alone i was just using him as a example.
There is no need to defend himself these are just my points of view taken from his own webpage.
I am not out to hang him i am just posting my thoughts on the subject and asking you all what do you think..
The problem with all forums is that they do not truley convey the persons message alot of times and a person type [text] can have different meanings to each person who reads it.



Are we not seeing this already with Thailand and Aus?



I don't recall ever saying we were the first hmm...
As far as we know they came from hot and humid place like Central America how they came to be in florida is a mystery..
Northern mexico and Cali are on the dry side so maybe thats a issue..
Texas is humid from what i remember at least in the lower parts so plumies
showing up along the southern coast would be feasible.
It's really anyone guess like you said..

On a last note naturally to me means it needs no help to grow and thrive and reproduce..
In the northern part of florida they have a frost condition so it would die in the wild same goes for some parts of texas and cali..
Naturally in the official way is anything growing in that state before european contact i believe but i could be wrong..

Maybe this was a bad subject to post i thought i could spur up some lurkers and get a good active post going..
We are all passionate about our plumies are we not?
:)

PS
Thank you clare for your points of view..
I hope Paula doesn't get mad at me now ;=/

This message was edited Jul 11, 2006 1:07 AM

Its a fine subject
We need to be careful to not beat it to death though.
Im not saying.we are. Just a caution.
It needs discussing, and if forums arent the place then where?
We dont meet anywhere else lol!!
This is fine.
Yes text does lack for expression... Thank someone for emoticons ;^)

Robert,

I am registering 5 Australian cvs as I write this. Mango Magic only needs the close-up photos and the will print the certificate as all else is finished. Heart of Gold, Miracle Pink, Giant Aussie Sunburst (had to get rid of the 'Orange' in the name because you can only have a fruit as the first name but not the last in order to not sound like a fruit tree! LOL)l Gold Coast Peachy (once again --can't say "Peach" as the last name).

Australia has more of a problem than anyone as they grew and hybridized them for years without ever trying to classify them. Only now does their FSA try to do so, but ulitmately, it is the PSA which get international accredidation from the Royal Botanical/Horticultural Society---the organization that all worl-wide registered plants go through.

We have had to do a lot of our own research, and, also be careful not to offend--as some of our cultivars are the same plants as others being sold in OZ. However, some people get very upset about this. FH discovered we have a couple of the same plants as DJs Way and, as one seller, Dannye--AKA XeperMoon, at the same time that they found them, though whether these sellers choose to do the same is not guaranteed because they might feel their names are what it should be called. However, we are registering them, and, as these trees were discovered often in the wild in Australia, we get the naming rights and as far as the official naming, it is a matter of who registers it first.

A couple of examples-- Our 'Australia' is most certainly DJ's Way's 'Capalaba Pink'. Also, our 'Kalina' is most definitiely, as far as we can tell (not to mention several other people who have written to us), Dannye's 'Mermaid's Gem'. Now, whether Dannye's Mermaid's Gem and Darryl's Mermaid's Gem (Darryl is an FSA member who first named Mermaid's Gem after Mermaid's Beach where it was discovered), are exactly the same is up for debate, as I have heard both Yes, and, No about this. We intend to register ours simply as 'Kalina' with notes as to the previous possibilities included in the paperwork. Same with the other cvs if they might be called something else. If all is finally proven, sellers will have to adjust their names to the registered onesif they are to remain correct in what they are selling, or, at least provide this information somewhere when selling. That might bother some, but, it is in truth helping to create organization out of chaos. This is where I think the FSA could start doing a bit more research. The last report I read, is that they are focused on a much-needed discussion about what a 'fruitsalad plumeria' is, but I think other important things are standing by in the meantime. While this research is indeed crucial, it's too bad they can't also be quickly resolving lots of other issues. Shortage of members willing to help out is likely a major problem though, so I think the number of people with the time and willingness to help sort out these headaches is also very limited, so, we should not be frustrated with the Aussies, but instead applaud their efforts in what must surely be a bewildering task!

Unfortunately, in the plumeria world passions tend to run ahead of principles and people get so angry with one another. Having experienced such a few times myself (the passive-agressive ones that do it in a round-about way are the ones that are the worst), I understand why some people stay out of plumeria politics and discussions. Research is in the meantime suffering because of petty egotistical issues, including: jealousy over who has what, jealousy over what seller is selling something no one else has, and, some of the old timers resenting anyone who has not "paid their dues", and are quick to try to "put them in their place" instead of recognizing what they can do to contribute to the plumeria world. The latter I have seen time and again on the open forums and it is absolutely disgraceful. This is one of the main reasons I now avoid serious discussions on most of the forums. Hopefully, this forum is still as it was when Clare helped get it started and I won't be feeling I have to defend myself in the next 24 hours. LOL I might also mention that Clare is considered new to plumeria by many and has also been a target on some of the other forums by people as described above. Clare is someone for whom I have a healthy respect and admiration because she doesn't consider personalities or social politics and dares to speak what she believes; ask thoughtful questions, even though some people might get uncomfortable.

As for the Thai plumerias, there is a lot of confusion as well. Som Raya, for example, is also called 'Firestorm'. This probably makes some people uncomfortable, but facts are facts. My friend Kukiat in Thailand has seen pictures of both, and, also grows this plant and he told both Clare and me that they are indeed the same. There are a lot of cvs in Thailand that have local names that get changed for one reason or the other, or, simply because some Thais feel the Thai names should be 'anglicized' for better marketability in the West---which isn't a totally bad thing, considering the problems with pronouncing some of these names for us Americans. However possible confusion is easily imagined. Som Garisin and Som Kalisin are actually Thai names for Penang Peach. Lueang Gandjana is actually Bali Palace, and so on, and so on.... The Thais are in the middle of a plumeria explosion right now and $$$$$ are to be made, so some are being careless with names as new plants hit the market. Some labeled as 'new' are actually old local varieties; some are genuinely new cvs. The Thais had an adenium craze like this back in the early to late 90s and it has finally settled down, names are better established, and prices have thankfully cooled down. I think plumerias will too after a couple more years.

On the note of declaring plumerias as a seedling of , say, Scott Pratt X Daisy Wilcox, for example, this is not possible in most cases as many plumeria seedings are openly pollinated, and no one can always say what is what, especially if they have a lot of plumerias growing in one area. Some plants pollinate themselves! Only documented pollination done with proper techniques can claim this, and,yet, that is up for debate among plumerians as some say only Bill Moragne's method will work; some say the new 'water pollination' technique is also good; some say use a broom straw, etc, ect etc....... Just cross-pollination is a topic for heated debate, it seems. I have talkd to a few growers who are very skeptical of many of the newer techniques, in that they might not reduce or eliminate any chances for contamination of the flower, before, during, or after the introduction of the desired pollen to the femal parts of the flower. Just dissecting a plumeria flower is enought to make one wonder how the darn things do it in nature anyway, the parts are so tiny and narrow! LOL All I can say is thank God for thrips! These little guys do a great job getting pollen into the right places.

Anyway, I have probably aleready stirred up a hornet's nest, so I think this is enough for now. LOL

Brad

This message was edited Jul 11, 2006 1:17 PM

This is a great discussion, and we are all friends here. Dave's is great because it is a safe place to argue your point of view without be attacked personally. I feel safe arguing a point or two here whereas I don't other places. Good discussion, Robert! The issue of names is certainly a valid concern, and you are right that passions can run high! Your points are well-taken and thanks for your thoughtful points of view too.

Brad, I am very touched by your words about me. I am most grateful for them. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for you also as you also speak your mind and declare your beliefs without fear of repercussion. To me, that shows strength of character and moral conviction, a couple of the greatest stengths in my mind. I am so glad that you chimed in to this discussion. No one will attack you here so there will be no need to defend yourself. This is a safe place to express yourself, I feel. Dave would not have it any other way. I agree that the passive-aggressive ones are the worst! We know who those people are, don't we? Congrats on all your registrations:-)

Right on, Michael;-) A worthy subject indeed.

wow. About EW, when I met him he told me of the many problems he's had w/ computer viruses and gave me specific instructions on how to contact him via email. Maybe interested parties should write him a letter/postcard and in that letter alert him that you wish to continue the discussion via email. Then, he'd know to look out for your communications.

I got the impression he ignores most of the emails he is not expecting. I do the same. Just my two cents. The discussions here are very interesting, but way out of my league. I am a gal with less than 10 plumies--the pink, the red, the white.....

Learned lots from you guys though, thanks

Clare,

I had to invest in an expensive film camera to get decent slides for PSA. ARGGHH! I have had one setback after another between bad, borrowed cameras, film development issues, and, the plumies not cooperating with my efforts--LOL--by bloming when I want them to! Bad Plumies, Bad!! LOL Poor Paul Furtwangler is probably wondering if I am ever going to finish and send her those pics I keep promising. What she doesn't realize is the huge number of slides that are going to end up on her doorstep for 5 different Aussie plumerias! I mean, I probably took too many after I got a decent camera, just to make sure all my bases are covered and each variety has on average two rolls of film each. I got a NIKON FM3 A and a very expensive lens that can zoom in beautifully when needed. I am ready for any other plants I need to register for sure! I finally found a local developer who has his own shop and can get the slides done in 2 days. The other place I was using took almost 2 weeks because they had to send them off!

Anyway, reat discussion and I don;t want to divert it in another direction so i will close for now.

Brad

Im gonna have to dig out the ole 35mm heh
Its a yashika.

Thanks all for your input..
LOL you don't have to worry about me for future reference..
I used to admin 10 different gaming boards and the flame wars that went on in there
can make or break you :)
I learn long ago that knowing when to backup is the key to longevity in any forum..
Brad awesome dude on the plumies why don't you have a personal webpage with all these goodies in a personal photo album..
You know what they say "out of sight,out of mind".

Clare i did not know you were attack in other forums even tho i been a member to most of them for awhile i haven't been following them as much as i would like..
I am still admin to some boards and i have my own hosting company so computers and internet hosting/security is my biz and it takes alot of my time..
It does not matter how long someone's been in the plumie world to me, all members
have something to contribute i think and i am sorry this has happen to you..
I value your thoughts and the thoughts of all members here or on those other forums..
Feel free to voice your thoughts any which way you want in my posts i value them all.
Brad i don't have say anything we are both Floridians and share the same name. :)

Btw Mal i will be sending your cutting in the next day or so i just been busy here with all the rains and my darn grass needs cutting now every 4 days :(
I was going to air layer it for ya but you know what you are doing and your weather is warm..
She will have a coating of Clonex rooting gel so no need to add any powders as they are no match for Clonex slow releasing gel.

Thanks man!
I look forward to her arrival
Hopefully the USPS wont run her over as they did one of my 3 Hawaiian Palms.

Wow, this discussion went very well! What a nice change in atmosphere! I think had I posted what I did elsewhere I'd be up to my neck in fire ants right now. LMAO
Great discussion, ya'll!

Brad

LOL, Brad! It's true that it is a nice change:-) Yeah, we'd both be "Ouch," "ouch," "ouch,"...

Thanks, Robert, for everything that you said. I really appreciate that. I value your thoughts too. I've only been growing plumerias for about four years now, and I started out fairly slow and only got serious about plumerias for the past two and a half years maybe. That is a newbie compared to those who have been growing them for 30 years or more, and those long-time growers -- Brad and I call them the Old Guard -- tend to feel threatened by the youngsters who haven't paid their dues yet as Brad said. It's politics, I guess. Whatever. It's cool. I just hang out where I am appreciated and avoid those other places. Life is too short to deal with unpleasant people, yes?

Hey, Robert, I have Clonex gel, and I also have Hormex. Do you like Clonex better than other rooting powders? Maybe I should use Clonex more often. I have a big jar of it that cost me a fortune, but I haven't used it in a while. I did use it to root some difficult-to-root Passiflora cuttings last year. By the way, did you see Brad's web site? It's http://www.bradsbudsandblooms.com

I have just returned from the International Plumeria Conference and I can say that the procedure of registering plumerias will be revised in the near future. Details will be revealed on the PSA site when they have come to a conclusion about this issue.

Hey all,
Clare there is no powder that can come close to Clonex Gel..
It has a anti-fungical but it also has hormones and nutrients that slow release as the cutting
grows some more roots the gel releases more nutrients to feed them..
The best thing about gels is that they won't wash off when you water the cutting or rub off when you stick the cutting in the dirt..
Your right Clonex is expensive but so are those wonderful plumies you have :)
To be honest i got the idea of gels and Clonex watching the major drug busts down here..
Many times on the local news you see cops finding houses that were converted into
hydroponics lab for pot growers and when they flash a shot of the setup inside the house
i seen clonex jars in the background so i went to a big hydroponics store by me and ask them. They swear by it so that was good enough for me..

I like to point out that the hydroponics people are on the leading edge when it comes to growing plants that produce stronger and bigger plants..
The products that are available today for them is unmatched..
I spend alot of money on the products and use them almost daily on my plants..
So far from what i seen on all the plumie forums most peeps are feeding their plumie
or other plants incorrectly..
They are just lucky that the plumie is very forgiving but if they use the same mix of chemicals on other plants you see them complain about burn and yellowing..
Messenger and other products were made for the hydro peeps so this is proof
that the hydro peeps know what they are doing..

The water you use is very very important because this is your base and when you add any nutrient or chemical it will react according to the properties of the water you use..
You cannot simply add superthrive to a gallon of water and ignore what you have done
to the PH and Akaline levels of that water..
With that info alone people will be shock when they test their own homemade nutrient
batch..
Most of the time the akaline levels drop way below the scales from what i tested..
I also test the salt content after i mix my stuff and you won't believe what happens when
you mix all these fine products like alot of peeps are doing..
I see alot of sellers pushing their stuff on the plumie forums but i have yet to see any
of them warning peeps about the properties of all these products and what they do when you mix them all together..
Some of them even cancel each other out or worst they increase the level beyond what is normal or cause phytotoxic conditions to the plant..

My next step for testing will be the tissue tester which you can sample the sap or cut a piece of tissue from the plant and test it for nutrients or lack of..
This test will tell you why the plant is sick and what it needs..
The testers right now are big bucks $800 and up so i am waiting for the prices to come down..

Oh thanks for the info on brads website .. you think he would have sent me a email to let me know haha!

This message was edited Jul 13, 2006 11:43 PM

Robert--I thought I had already??

Brad

i appreciate very much this informative thread...and i agree totally about the hydroponic folks.

Yes, I agree too about the hydroponics growers. They are way ahead of the game.

That is interesting about the water and fertilizer. It is true that many of us have different water types. I have a soil Ph tester, a really good one that cost about $150, but I have never used it. I will some day. I know myself though, and I know that, if I get too scientific about growing plumerias, I will enjoy them less. I prefer to fly by the seat of my pants! LOL! But you are right that it is important to be informed about these things like water Ph, soil Ph, fertilizer and supplement mixing, etc. Thanks so much for the info. about Clonex. I will start using it from now on.