Taming the Ticks

To try and make a long story short: My wife and I moved into our new house in January, and the area is know to have ticks with Lyme Disease. The last owner was terrible with yard work and didn't rake any leaves or trim bushes or shrubs, so the ticks are out of control. We do tick checks constantly and always pull them off our dog. I have been working at taming the yard landscaping, and am also researching ways to deter ticks from coming into our yard at all. My goal is to do it as naturally as possible, or at the very least, with as little potential chemical impact to the soil/groundwater as possible. I have found all natural granules that repel ticks, made with essential plant oils, look here http://www.nixalite.com/fleaandtickrepellent.aspx.

But now I read that rodents are the main carriers, not deer, and that there is a system that is supposed to work well at treating mice with an insecticide that doesn't harm the mice, but reduces the tick population on your property in the first year by 80% and by 97% by the second year! Look here http://www.maxforcetms.com/maxforce_tms.html.

My question is this, I have searched the forums and haven't seen anything, but remember reading somewhere that you can make this system yourself, with PVC, cotton, and the insecticide, and place them in the yard. I imagine that would be a whole lot more economical. But I can't remember where I read about someone making them. Anyone know how? Curious about where to buy the insecticide, dosage for the cotton, etc. Help!

I can't answer your question, but wanted to thank you for posting the link. I have some burrowing animals that are creating holes in my yard that are no longer just a nusance, but a hazard! I don't know it they are moles or chipmunks,though(I don't think the hole are by groundhogs because they're so close to the house, and kind of small) or if it even matters with that product. Thanks again

Neem oil is excellent on ticks you don't have to worry about pets either. I have guineas and ducks who do a lot of eating of the nasty critters. Lyme is usually carried by white footed mouse. The cats here keep the rodent population down, and some rat poison. But I try not to use chems as we have a well for our drinking water. You get the yard cleaned up and things under control the tick population will go down as the hiding places and vectors disappear.
I also use diatomaceous earth for pest too. Most natural things need to reapplied after a rain too.

I am trying this product this year to control ticks around my gardens:

http://www.damminix.com/

These are open ended cardboard tubes partially filled with cotton nesting material that small rodents take back to their nests. This nesting material is treated with a tick killing chemical, permethrin. I suppose you could make your own but looking at the cost for 24 tube for ½ acre for $69.95 plus $5.00 shipping I do not think the cost is unreasonable. I'd be interested if anyone else has tried or is using this product.

CDC web site has a lot of useful information. Click here to see some photos of the ticks:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_transmission.htm

The earliest stage they are only the size of a poppy seed. The photo shows the ticks in relation to a dime. Note how small they are in comparsion to the 'D' in dime.

Sue

Wormboy,

Your MaxForce hyperlink is broken because it included the period at the end of the sentence. Without the period, it appears as:

http://www.maxforcetms.com/maxforce_tms.html

This is only our fourth year here in Maine (we moved here from the St. Louis area) but this is far and away the worst tick year we have seen. I have already sustained one tick bite. It's in a jar, apparently dead, and I haven't positively identified the tick yet. It doesn't appear to match any of the three shown on Sue's CDC link, but it may be an engorged deer tick. We have killed several that we saw crawling on our clothing. We don't have pets, but there are plenty of squirrels and chipmunks about.

Perhaps our relatively mild winter contributed to the numerous tick population. Could this be a bad effect of global warming in the Northeast?

MM

wow,
what great responses, and so informative! I hope this thread helps alot of people. And heck, maybe we can see what works best in the end. I am going to try the maxforce system, but Sue, I am also considering having a few tubes around as well. So between the three of these, I would hope I can get things under control. Talking to neighbors we have heard that there were at least three cases of Lyme Disease in our immediate area on our dead end street, so its a serious problem here. Well, lets keep our fingers crossed.

As a follow up to my last message, my tick was identified as an engorged female deer tick and my doctor prescribed a one-time dose of 200mg doxycycline as an initial response against a possible Lyme infection. I am watching the bite site to see if the characteristic Lyme Disease red patch develops, in which case I will get more antibiotics.

MM

Maine Man,
Don't hesitate to get tested. The biggest problem with Lyme disease is it going untreated or undertreated. I know some people that have been struggling for years because of a lack of adequate, timely treatment. There is also a preferred test that not everyone uses. Not sure of the info but this is not to be taken lightly.
Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the advice. I'll ask my doctor about getting tested. So far the bite hasn't gotten the surrounding red pattern that indicates Lyme, but the bite itself remains red. I had hoped it would show definite signs of healing by now, and I don't see that. Maybe we, the doctor and I, shouldn't wait for the red pattern. I'll call my doctor in the morning. I've heard several bad stories from people who got Lyme, so I won't be nonchalant about this.

MM

My doctor said today when I saw her about my rash & bullseye pattern from the deer tick that got me last weekend that the test will not show anything for a month or 2. I am on an antibiotic for 2 weeks, possibly 3 if rash is not gone.

Marie in Gardiner, ME

Oh do I know about Lyme disease. I was diagnosed early on with a very bad case and after many attempts to treat it via oral antibiotics, I was sent to see the doctor who had studied the original Lyme Ct. outbreak when he was at Yale. I became a test study for him and after having spinal tapes, brain scans, nerve and muscle tests ,I was put on twice a day IV therapy for a month (2 different times) After a year of being mostly bed ridden, I recovered. I had extreme joint and muscle pain, loss of memory and constant confusion and suffered from exhaustion. But, though I have been reinfected a couple of times since, the antibiotics now used seem to work well. ( I was part of an early study for these antibiotics that are now used, so I made the annals on the New England Med Journal) I didn't garden for several years as I was very weak and slightly terrified to get reinfected. I began gardening again at our home in VT and became addicted again & brave. Then we put up a deer fence in Nantucket. Got two border collies (our dearly departed old one, thought the deer where her buddies) who chase the odd one who gets in out post haste. I see the real issue is Rabbits, Deer, Mice and Pets. My dogs rarely seem to bring them in, but when I had my cats, they seem to always leave the tiny blighters on the couch or bed. I always wear socks, long sleeves and shower after I come in. I don't use the the tubes, because unless you get all the neighbors to do the same it is like our borders, someone new always passing through. I also live on the edge of the moors in Nantucket ,so it was necessary to change the deers pattern and keep them totally out of our garden area. Thus the fence. I keep the woods brush cut and free of debris. I pay someone to mow the lawn. I also gave up feeding the birds as we found that the seeds on the ground invited the mice to move in and when I had my cats they loved bringing me gifts of their nighttime kills which in retrospect where covered with ticks. Is this drearier enough? But the joy for me is that now that I had to put up a fence, I have no rabbits or deer and very few rodents (save some moles) and I can actually have a wonderful garden with tulips and lilies. The less grass you have the better which means more flower beds ! We did not fence in our entire property, though strangely the number of unwanted critters has greatly decreased in unfenced part as well(pity the neighbors). My sorrow is not having the birds at the feeder and having a cat. If as dave47 notes, it is easily treated now with oral antibiotics. Just me savvy about strange flu like symptoms and unexplained joint pain. Get tested. Best to you all. Patti

The bulleye rash is NOT always present in positive cases. And it does not always appear at the site of the bit. The sooner you get on antibiotics the better. Remember that these are not the big dog ticks but tiny dark grain of sand sized ticks. patti

Patti, Does Maine Man's 1 dose of 200 mg doxycycline sound kosher to you?

My doc rxed 100 mg doxycycline 2x day, but I already had a large rash & the bullseye by the time I saw her.

I know that there are very different medical camps on Lyme disease ,but I have not heard of a one time treatment. I also know that I did not have the rash or bulls eye in two of the three times that I was infected. So personally, I would not want to delay receiving a full complement of medication. But as I understand it, the spirochete in Lyme replicates every 24 hours as compared to the spirochete in syphilis that replicates at the much faster rate of every 30 min. so perhaps going untreated for a couple weeks may not be so harmful. To complicate matters more is fact that the blood test for Lyme are still crude at best, with lots of false results. The same can be said for the test preformed on the ticks. The one time I had the classic big bulls eye, the tick that bit me was tested and it came back as the right kind of tick, but neg. as a carrier of the Lyme disease. Go figure. Due diligence will help as the tick must be attached to you for a long period to transmit the disease ( I think it is more than 24 hrs ) So if you find one get it off asap and don't do anything except firmly grasp it and pull it off. Of course this is all based on anecdotal evidence and my memories which may be as faulty as some of my horticultural notions. Patti

Dave,

"Does Maine Man's 1 dose of 200 mg doxycycline sound kosher to you?"

If you read down in this document,

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/348/24/2424?ijkey=LruxMS3G8zCPA&keytype=ref&siteid=nejm

you will find the following statement:

"Prophylactic Treatment after Tick Bites

Although early studies of the efficacy of prophylactic treatment of tick bites failed to show a significant protective effect, a recent randomized clinical trial showed that a single 200-mg dose of doxycycline administered within 72 hours after a recognized I. scapularis bite had an efficacy of 87 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 25 to 98 percent) in preventing erythema migrans.22 The number needed to treat to prevent 1 case of erythema migrans was 36 among people with any I. scapularis bite and 12 among people with bites from an engorged nymphal I. scapularis. Erythema migrans did not occur in people with bites from unengorged ticks. No serious adverse effects were reported. Nausea or vomiting developed in six people for every case of erythema migrans that was prevented. None of the people treated with antibiotics in this or any of the previous clinical trials had asymptomatic B. burgdorferi infection or any late manifestations of Lyme disease, during follow-up periods that ranged from six weeks to three years."

The above document references this paper:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/345/2/79?ijkey=cc0dc4a46590708ccc32b555c70944503eee6368&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

whose conclusions are:

"Conclusions A single 200-mg dose of doxycycline given within 72 hours after an I. scapularis tick bite can prevent the development of Lyme disease."

All of that is summarized in this webpage

http://www.maine.gov/dhhs/boh/Lyme%20Disease%20Update.htm

as the following brief statement:

"Prophylaxis for Deer Tick Bites : One randomized clinical trial has demonstrated that in highly endemic areas, a single 200 mg. dose of doxycycline reduces the risk of Lyme disease after being bitten by a deer tick, if the tick has been attached for at least 36 hours (i.e., the tick is engorged) and if the dose can be given within 72 hours of removing the tick. Patients should still be told to seek medical attention if they later develop symptoms consistent with Lyme disease."

I don't know if the above sources pass your "kosher" test, but I think there is medical evidence that a quick 200mg dose of doxycycline is the best start for any treatment program, since it has the potential, but not the certainty, for a quick preventative knockout to the infection. I do plan to do a followup with my doctor, which may or may not result in further treatment.

MM

Sounds good.

But for me and my health insurance, my way worked best for me financially. I already had a Dr appointment scheduled in a few days ($1o copay), gas to get to her office (opposite direction from work), 3 weeks doxy (under $7) to be picked up at cheapest pharmacy (close to work) the next day, 3 free samples for first day, and no return Dr appointment until the regularly scheduled one in 3 months, by which time the health insurance will return to paying for lab work if any needed.

With gas prices the way they are, I try to avoid unnecessary travel these days.

Marie

Marie,

"With gas prices the way they are, I try to avoid unnecessary travel these days."

I couldn't agree more. I am doing more shopping on the Internet because it avoids travel and they deliver the stuff to your door. And, in general, the Internet shopping gives you a greater selection. However, we're not buying groceries yet that way.

MM

Maine Man, Sorry if I sounded interfering. I just wanted to make sure you weren't being undertreated. Its clear you have everything under control.
I would certainly consider the New England Journal of Medicine as "kosher".
Dave

Dave,

No problem. I didn't resent your comment. I just wanted to clarify my position and maybe I went a bit overboard. I agree with you -- I don't want to be undertreated. And I hope to develop better preventive techniques to keep ticks off of me.

This was my first tick bite since childhood on our family farm in Oklahoma. Apparently Oklahoma doesn't have a Lyme disease problem. Come to think of it, I don't think Lyme disease had even been discovered at that time. We were more worried about catching Polio from swimming pools back then. Now I guess the big worry is catching flue from birds.

MM

This weekend I found an adult deer tick crawling on my clothing! I know what it was because I got it into an empty glass jar and was able to identify it at the CDC web site. Even though I had applied DEET spray to my legs and sneakers it still got on me in a short trip to the garden. This scared me into action.

I read in another gardening web site that there is a long lasting insecticide that you can spray on your clothing called Repel PermaNone:

http://www.repel.com/ProductCategories/Insectrepellents/Permanone/

To use it, you spray it on the outside of your clothing, let the clothes dry for 2 hours and then you can wear them. Supposedly it stays in the clothing through multiple washings. So finding this tick was enough more me, I went to Eastern Mountain Sports and got this product and applied it to some of my gardening clothes. So we will see if it works any better than spraying Off.

Anyone use this product? I thought it would be worth mentioning as another weapon in the fight against the Lyme ticks.

Sue

Sue,

I have been using REPEL's Permanone for a couple of years. It repels and even kills ticks & mosquitoes that come into contact with the treated clothing. It's probably not very effective against black flies because they go primarily for your skin. But black flies will climb under your clothes somewhat like chiggers, so the Permanone might discourage some of that.

Unfortunately, I hadn't applied any Permanone yet this year because I wasn't aware of the tick outbreak until after I was bitten. Permanone contains 0.5% permethrin as its active ingredient.

Permethrin actually binds to the treated fabric and partially survives a washing. You aren't supposed to treat fabric more often than once every two weeks and you should launder your clothing at least once before reapplying. I also apply it to my boots.

I purchase 6oz aerosol cans of REPEL Permanone from our local Wal-Mart to save some money and to avoid paying any shipping. It still isn't cheap.

MM

Lyme has been shown to be carried by the wood & other ticks as well, although initial research pointed to the deer tick. An immediate course of antibiotics "just in case" should be given to ALL suspected Lyme infections or tick bites. The long term cost is much worse that the over blown fear of overmedicating the masses with 2-6 weeks of Doxy. The medical community is still stuck on the initial research. Doctors are not required to update their education, nor do they have the time to do so. The Yale Lyme clinic spent lots of time & energy telling patients they were nuts or had other ailments instead of Lyme, before the clinic was forced to close. The whole Lyme situation is murky & complicated - if you do not receive that course of antibiotics after being bit, then go to another doctor. I too am in the midst of the nightmare of Lyme, & it just isn't worth the risk.
Julie

Maine Man, My best guess is that Lyme Disease was "dicovered" about 15 years ago. It was found in Lyme, CT.
Julie, you sound like you know your stuff. Unfortunately, it sounds like it was learned at great "expense". Sorry to hear that. Hope its beginning to go well. I have friends that battled/still battle with this. If you are looking to network, get info or support; I'd be happy to put you in touch with them.
Dave

Maineman thanks for your input! I am glad to hear someone else has used the Repel. I am always concerned about using any pesticides or insecticides but the thought of getting Lyme disease has scared me into trying this. From what I've read it seems like a fairly safe to use as long as you use it as directed. I plan to keep the clothes segregated and wash them separately in any case. I treated the two outfits I usually wear and 3 pairs of socks. The problem is that after coming home from work I always like to walk around the gardens and do some small things like some deadheading, pulling a weed here or there, etc. that don't require changing into my work clothes but looks like I'll have to be careful and change in any case! It is a shame that with all the need to get more exercise we must put on hats, sunscreen, insect repellants etc. just to go outside! It is discouraging to me that it has come to this.

The Walmart near my house and near my work don't carry the Repel. Is it in the section where the camping gear is sold? This is the only thing I haven't checked. EMS had it for I think $6.50 for a can. Also as a followup I am talking to my neighbors about using the Damminix tick tubes. I think it is a must to get the neighbors involved and using this system for it to work.

Sue

My dog had a knee repaired 2 years ago and it left her very arthritic. She hadn't seemed "right" for a few weeks, so I thought her arthritis must be really hurting her. A friend's dog (3 miles away) was diagnosed with Lyme's, and a light bulb went off in my head. So thursday I took mine to the vet, and sure enough, she had it too.. Everyone, please keep an eye on your dogs for behavioral changes. The vet said Lyme's disease has became an epidemic.

All,
I am still a believer in this maxforce system based on the research I have done so far.
I have a technician from NY Tick Control (TC) coming to my house after work today. He also owns RI TC, NJ TC and CT TC. He will be installing the Maxforce system on my property (see above link). He called me back after I asked some questions on his website, and that's how I began speaking with him. He said that though you can buy the maxforce system from a few websites online, it is illegal for you to handle, as the active ingredient Fipronil is a "restricted use" pesticide and the boxes must be handled by a licensed pesticide applicator due to this EPA classification. I researched this, and it is true. While I don't think handling them is a real issue (the active ingredient is a soaked wick within this childproof plastic box), I ended up letting him install them because this company has been ordered by the EPA to install a protective metal box over the plastic box as squirells in the NE have been found to chew the boxes without this metal protection, potentially leaving the inside of the box exposed for children, to get at.
Also when speaking with him (and take this with a grain of salt since he is biased) he said that there is a study out there that shows that the tubes don't work. And just as someone had mentioned, if everyone in your area doesn't do it, then it's effectiveness is reduced/nonexistant. God, I just can't bring myself to do spraying on my property. I have heard the rig-a-maroll that the pesticides they would spray only have an 8 day half life, won't persist in the environment, etc., but I really can't believe this based on what I know of soil properties, and I just can't see my dog walking across this ground, chewing sticks from the ground, licking his paws. Not an option. God I hope this maxforce thing works.
Keep it up people, its so great to hear everyones experience and insight. There are a lot of people on this thread with a wealth of practical experience, that too me is invaluable while I am trying to get a handle on this before one of us gets sick. Thanks so much everyone, I really appreciate it.

Thanks Donna
I don't know about your area, but in NY a Lyme Disease vacination is available for dogs. And I don't know, maybe cats too. Something worth looking into for pet owners.

Sue,

"The Walmart near my house and near my work don't carry the Repel. Is it in the section where the camping gear is sold? This is the only thing I haven't checked."

Better check there. I think that is where our Wal-Mart has it now. They recently remodelled and during that time you pretty much had to ask a store employee where to find something because they were moving the stuff all around and had it in Gardening for a while and in a separate standalone display for awhile. But Permanone's natural home is in Camping because spraying your camping gear including tents, cots, and the outsides (not insides) of sleeping bags with it just makes good sense. And, of course, your clothes and footwear, too.

In addition to Permanone, REPEL also makes several other repellents, including the 18% DEET Sportsman Formula with extra ingredients for black flies that I have been using a lot of to keep black flies and mosquitoes off of me while working in the garden. I also get it at Wal-Mart, right next to the Permanone. Even at Wal-Mart's prices, both Permanone and REPEL's Sportsman Formula are rather expensive.

MM

This message was edited May 9, 2006 1:00 PM

Wormboy, I just printed out Maxforce info and will run it by the Valero's who are the local certified dealer in Nantucket as well as by my doctor who has been involved with all kinds of studies about Lyme. I my just add it to my arsenal. Speaking of saving money, don't get to the point where you need IV therapy for a month. Mine cost the insurance company about Thirty thousand dollars for the one month of medication alone. My husband administered it to me at home, so this did not include the other medical expenses of doctors visit and blood work etc. There was a vaccine developed which has been very promising, but as I understand it, there is not enough money in it for the drug companies to produce it so it has been shelved for now. If enough people get sick, I am sure they will produce it. A sad state of affairs! Patti

This message was edited May 9, 2006 5:13 PM

My sister works for a veterinarian in Virginia, & the majority of the dogs test positive for Lyme. Both of her horses had it too, just recently. The test for Lyme in animals is nearly 100% accurate, & the treatment is also effective in most cases. I would need the technical expertise of a chemist to figure out WHY this is so, but it somehow seems unfair. It IS epidemic, although you will not hear that from any doctor.
I did have a recipe for a tick repellant, that used Skin So Soft, Eucalyptus oil, vinegar - it was awful stuff. I couldn't stand myself. DEET is the best repellant, although I try to avoid using the toxic chemicals. I have found 4 ticks already this season. They hide in the downed leaves, where the Ivy is around the perimeter of my property. I do tick checks every night. I can't even look at a picture of a tick without my pulse quickening. The way I see it, mosquitos, Vampires, ticks - ANYTHING that sucks blood CAN'T be good, right?
(I can still laugh about it!)
Here is my favorite Lyme cartoon

Wormboy - you need to be careful because you border the county park there - it is home to alot of deer!

Anita,
A lot of deer!?! My god, we have to practically shoo them away. I was walking the Smeagster on Monday, and as I walked toward the park gate from the street I saw two deer feeding on the grass about 25 feet from the gate. They let us walk right in through the gate before they took only a few half hearted bounds into the woods, where they stayed about 10 yards away until we walked by. I thought we were at a petting zoo. DW and I have been good about doing tick checks daily, but the nymph ticks are tiny, and I don't think you are likely to see them.
I'm in a particular bind now with my approach, because though I am having the Maxforce system set up now, it won't effect this years population right away. From what I understand you need a whole year of the insecticide on the treated area rodents (mice, chipmoks, moles) killing off the nymphs and larvae they carry before you start to profoundly impact the cycle and really cut down on the infection rate. Sorry, I could talk all ya'lls ears off if you let me. I'll try to keep it brief, the crux of it is, they suggest spraying the first year to get over the hump and knock the population down right away. But my vegetable garden is about 25' from the woodline. Have them spray chemicals right next to my garden?? Uggg Don't know what to do. If DF got sick and I could possibly have prevented it, I don't know what I would do with myself. :-( HELLLP

I wouldn't wrack your conscience TOO much about what COULD happen - just do what you can. No matter what we do, the possibility will always be there - ticks have travel down to an art. And the tiny deer ticks? The 2 that infected me were so tiny that I thought they were freckles, & they were dead - imbedded under the skin. I would not have known they were ticks if I hadn't looked at them with a scope. They are THAT small. That Maxforce system sdounds like a great plan, to reducing your chances. You are on your way. There are a lot of other things in this world to think about - good things!

Yeah, I agree. Be smart but don't get obsessed. At the risk of sounding stupid, there are a lot of people who never got LD even without precautions.

True Dave. It is a fine line. I guess it just freaks me out that there are a few people "on my block" who have gotten LD. To be honest with you, I never used to give it so much thought. Thanks for the propspective, I shouldn't forget to balance the issue out with a little calm rational thought.
Maybe I should go back to obsessing over my garden. :-)
Thanks

There you go!

There was a system that treated the deer for ticks, but I haven't heard much about it for a couple of years now. They lured the deer to a feeding station, then the deer would brush against rollers which had a chemical that killed the ticks. Each deer typically has 80-100 ticks on its body. (EWWW) The drawbacks were that the same deer would visit the station, & the deer that brushed against the rollers would get a bright orange paint on their fur. This was great for the hunters, but not for the deer. It really sounded like a well thought out plan, but I don't hear anything about it anymore. CT & RI were testing it a few years ago. There was even talk about stations designed for the private homeowner. Anyone know the status of this system?

From what I have heard, I think they are taking that stytem off the market for a few reasons. One thing was that any system that lures deer to one area to feed increases the chances of chronic wasting disease in the area deer herd. And the other bad thing about that system is that you have these exposed rollers with pesticide on them, that are unprotected and open to any children/people or other animals that walk up to them. So not so good a system from what I hear.

Wormboy,

"I guess it just freaks me out that there are a few people "on my block" who have gotten LD."

I think Lyme Disease must be much more common than is usually thought. I've read numerous forum messages, here at Dave's and elsewhere, from people who have had or have LD and some of those reported getting it a second time.

Although I wonder if those "second time" cases weren't simply recurrences of the original infection. You would think that the original infection would stimulate antibodies that would be as good as, or better than, a human Lyme vaccine.

"...they suggest spraying the first year to get over the hump and knock the population down right away. But my vegetable garden is about 25' from the woodline. Have them spray chemicals right next to my garden??"

Was it Shakespeare who said, "To spray or not to spray, that is the question"? I guess you could cover your entire garden with tarps or plastic film before doing the spraying. But then there would be the problem of ticks in the garden itself.

Have you considered a flock of guineas? There are a lot of complications with that approach, but I have been toying with the idea, myself.

MM