No Monarch cats

After moving to Florida two years ago, I have read these forums and learned a lot from the good folks at Dave's. Now this is the first year I have tried planting some larval food sources for butterflies. My passiflora is covered in Gulf Frit cats of all sizes, but my Asclepias have no Monarch cats. Actually, I have seen two small ones but then I never see them again. I'm afraid something is getting them. I looked all over the bushes and I found these small orange and black winged insects. I was wondering if anyone could ID them, and let me know if they are harmful to the cats. I will attempt to post a picture (my first attempt.) Thanks

Dan

Well I am no expert. Don't know what that bug is, but what i have read about Monarch Cats is that by eating the Asclepias, they also get a toxic substance (milk from the milkweed?) that makes them unpalatable to predators. Karen

Dan,

I don't have any either yet although I have seen some in the nurseries. I have one nursery that if I buy a plant will let me transfer cats to my plant. Their stock isn't destroyed and I get cats. you might check with a local nursery to get started.
Another possibliity is toxin. i learned last year not to buy any butterfly plants anywhere but at places that could assure me no pesticides had een used.Anything in a big box store is suspect.
While I have no cats right now, I'm using this time to prune my current plants for bushiness, growing from seed, and touching base with local nurseries. Last year we had so many I'd have to pick up plants on the way home because they ate them to the stems during the day!

Maggie

Dan, Here is the bug, what it might do is unclear to me. Maybe you can research more info.
http://bugguide.net/node/view/504

This message was edited Apr 19, 2006 6:36 AM

Sheila - Thanks. That sure is it. It appears to be fairly benign as far as the cats go.

Maggie - Good point about the toxins. I have about 15 seedlings I grew myself that are just now reaching bloom size. However, I did buy one large plant from a nursery to get started, and that is where I have seen the small cats disappear. I bought a passiflora there that is covered in orange and black Gulf Frit cats, but it is possible the milkweed got sprayed. I'll just watch the seedlings to see what happens. I'm just not very patient! I look forward to having the problem of so many cats they munch the plants right down.

We have a lot of lizards around, and the yard backs to a 'preserve" (swamp) with all kinds of critters. I'm not sure what will go for the monarch cats, but the passiflora is right on the preserve border and those cats seem fine. I will try learning patience (one of my gardening goals) and hope to see some soon. We certainly have enough Monarchs visiting the plants regularly.

Thanks again to everyone for the good advice.

Dan

Dan,

You're right to keep an eye on those lizards. I had 7 BST cat last yeare that were ready to pupate. I put them outside overnight so if one was ready it could wander up the screen. Next morning all 7 were gone. The lizards looked fatter to me. coincidence? I think not. I have a hatching box my DH made for me- I'll use it even more this year. One suggestion was to anchor a collapsible hamper over an in ground plant to protect it from varmints and give it a place to eclose.

Maggie

Your bug is a milkweed bug and you will see many more if you have one. Kill it! They multiply like aphids. They will congregate on the pods and destroy them.

Maggie is right about the milkweed. If you buy it then you should at least wash it off with some soapy water and then rinse it good and hope that gets any chemicals. After at least one successful plant you will have a lot come up from seed and you can make sure they stay pesticide free.

There are all kinds of things that will eat the cats... spiders, lizards, birds, other bugs, assassin bugs. I try to bring the Monarchs inside but every once in a while I think about letting them back out and every time I do I go back out and they are gone and I worry. But I've seen them reappear almost magically so I think they hide too.

If they were ready to pupate then they may have just crawled off somewhere and chances are you'll never find that spot.

Maggie & kkb,

This isn't going to be as easy as I hoped, is it? I think all my Gulf Frit cats were MIA this morning. From both of your inputs, it sounds like some sort of hatching box or plant protector may be necessary. That's an interesting idea about the hamper. I see several threads with info on hatching boxes. I guess I'll need to start reading. Why is there a project hidden inside every good idea?

We're off for a few weeks vacation, and I'll see what things look like on our return. Thanks agian for your great suggestions.

Dan

The project is to keeep you young and free of dementia. Enjoy your vacation.

Maggie

My Gulf Frit cats and eggs are always a meal for something else. Spiders seem to love the cats and I watched the ants carrying eggs off last year! I don't like to bring these inside tho because the vine is not easy to feed them in a cage plus they don't seem to do well in a cage. If you just bring in leaves they go limp so fast and the poor cats are stuck trying to eat it while it's laying flat, rather than in an upright position. If you make a cage make it tall enough that you can stand a small vase in it with a piece of vine or milkweed in it. I need a new cage built too. I might go to the library today and see if I can locate the book that had the instructions. If I find it I'll share them.

I bring my monarch cats in and raise them in an aquarium with screen lid. I feed them wet asclepias leaves and give them branches to climb to reach the screen when they pupate and hatch. I release them after hatching and drying out.
Jan...

Another predator of Monarchs is wasps. I've seen them fly off with small caterpillars. I do use cages of various kinds to raise some of the butterfly caterpillars. When I start with the eggs, I can even be sure the caterpillars aren't parasitized.

I need a butterfly cage. I think DH has some left over lumber. I might attempt to make one.

I do like bringing my Monarchs in as eggs too. So far I've been lucky and never had one be parasitized. THAT would freak me out so I try to not really leave them outside.

Milkweed is easy to bring in and put in a vase. I personally don't like having to make them crawl around to eat since they naturally hang.

FYI...did you know that if you burn the end of the milkweed stem (probably should do it outside since the plant is poisonous) then you put it in water, it will quickly root and you can replant it!

It roots easily whether it's burnt or not. Trust me they do not mind "crawling around" to eat. I have raised many this way without incident.
Here are a few of my bottom fed releases.

I know they will eat just leaves and are fine, but I personally don't do that anymore. I have had them just act listless and not interested and then I took them outside and put them on a plant and they were so excited. I just like to let them feel a little more natural.

I don't bring in the Gulf Frits because they do not do well with just leaves flat or even pieces of the vines. I've had more die than pupate when kept inside so I just leave them outside on the vines to fend for themselves. I've done the same thing, brought them in and then released them and they did better.

I'm not sure if all milkweed roots the same but I've not been able to get it to root once the stem was cut and the milk started leaking. Someone here told me about burning the end closed and that worked with mine.

Dan, if you want some monarch cats just let me know .I'm just up the road in New Port Richey.I just picked about 60 cats off of my milkweed today and put them in my nursery.I've released over 50 monarch's in the last 10 days.I believe most are staying around because my milkweed are full of eggs.There seems to be 20 or so monarchs flying around my yard when the sun is out.
Dan if you have gecko lizards in or around your milkweed you won't have cats survive.Most won't even make it to the second instar.You have to pick them off early and protect them from our wild kingdom here in central florida.
Don

Any ideas on how to get rid of the lizards? I have a few snakes in my yard but clearly not enough.

Maggie

They are free roaming and will continue to come as long as there are insects. Don't forget they eat alot of harmful insects as well.
Birds also eat the cats so the only way to truly protect them is to bring them in or make some kind of screen enclosure to put ove the plants when there are cats on them.
Jan...

I just got back from vacation in N. Carolina and caught up on this thread. Thanks to Maggie, Don, Jan, and everyone who shared such good advice. My milkweed were all in bloom when I returned, but not a single cat. So, it looks like a cage will be needed soon. Indeed, I do have a lot of lizards, and I have seen the cardinals in those plants. Don, I'm incredibly jealous that you have so many monarchs just up the road! We'll see if we can get another herd going down here.

Fortunately, some of our nectar plants are now in bloom (salvias, cestrum, agastache, buddleia, as well as the milkweed) so we have three or four types of butterflies flying around and we should get some more chances to work with the eggs and cats. Thanks again,

Dan

Dan,
I envy you. I'm right now the road and I can't grow buddleia to save my life.

Jan,
What a shame. I find that the butterflies here prefer the Buddleia to anything else in the yard. You are so close in distance but I know you are warmer where you are. I started two last year, and one ( B. davidii Royal Purple) did die for totally unknown reasons after blooming nicely its first year. I almost lost the other, a B. "Big Pink" from HCG after a sprinkler broke and flooded the plant during the winter. However, I fixed the sprinkler and the bush has come back nicely. Maybe this summer I'll be able to get a cutting to grow (still learning) and see if you want to try again.

Dan

HI Dan,
I can get them to grow for a short time and bloom but after about 2-3 months, poof.
they die for no apparent reason. Get plenty of water as I'm on reclaimed water. I do still buy them but I treat them as short lived annuals. Have you tried porterweed or duranta yet?
2 of my all time favorites for butterflies. Also firebush (hamelia patens) is great.
I have tons of extras if you want to pop to here one evening or weekend and pick some up.
Jan...

Jan,

This year I planted a lot of things just to see if they would grow. Two of them are a Duranta (Sweet Memories, I think) and a firebush. They are just about 12-15 inches tall now. They have had a few blooms, but it is too early to tell how they'll do over time. I did a lot of reading at DG before planting them, and I seem to recall some of the comments that helped me decide on these were yours. Thanks!

I also have two Cestrums, one yellow and one pink. The yellow I got from a local nursery and it is already 4 ft. tall. The butterflies seem to like this also, and I just took my first cutting to see if I can propogate it. The pink was a small cutting, and is only about 12 in. so far, no blooms. I also have a Tecoma Stans, and a Tecomaria - Hammer's Rose that are 12" but i hope to start cuttings soon.

We're really pushed at work right now, but I would hope sometime this summer, if I can get a few cuttings going, that I could swing by and make a few swaps. I work around 19 & Ulmerton. I am really struggling to see what grows here. In CA, I was in zone 9b and assumed I could grow the same sorts of plants but this is not so. I'll DMail later to see what is possible (assuming I figure out DMail.) I'm trying to replace some aging Azaleas with Justicia Carnea. Do you by any chance have any history with them here?

I have to go out and check my one Monarch cat. My DW spotted it, and I brought one milkweed into the pool enclosure. He fed for a few days, and now seems to have attached to the enclosure framing. I had hoped he'd hang from a branch I put out. Now we'll need to figure out how to get him out. But at least we have one survivor this year!

Later, Dan