I have never grown these before and I have some orders for them for this May. Most of the alocasias and colocaisas are for one gallon pots, but I need some of the Calodoras (persian palms) and California alocaisas ready by the first week of May in 3 gallon pots and the Calodoras in 5 gallon and 5' high! I am starting to freak out! lol. I went with the tissue culture plants instead of the tubers because the price was better and I had more choices for other types, but the plants were very small when I got them and I am wondering if I made a big mistake. I started them out in 3.5" on Feb. 16, and because the roots are hitting the edge of the pot, moved them to one gallon today, but they are still very small (about 5" high). I put some triple 14 slow release in the pots (small handful) and have them as close to the heater,(they are in a greenhouse and the heater is a big one-200 btus) for bottom heat,as I can get (about 65-70 degrees) and in full sun. So my question is-how hard can I push them in terms of feeding-should I hit them with 200-300 ppm of liquid fert each week as well? Does anyone think these Caladoras will kick in and start to grow faster-roots and heighth and be ready by May 1st? Some plants are more prone to fungus when their EC levels are high, are these one of those plants? They sure are prone to all the fungus that regular annuals get-more so actually, so that sort of scares me.
On the bright side, its exciting to try these. Do any of the colocaisas do well in a water garden? Full sun? I have New Guinea Gold, Black Magic, Royal Hilo, Red stemmed, and Illustris.
Has anyone put the Hilo Beauty in full sun?
Thanks in advance if anyone can answer- I sure can use the help.
Alocasias and Colocaisas
Tigerlily....
I'm sure BWilliams will chime in here soon, and trust me, you'll want him to! He works constantly on developing new plants, and tropicals seem to be his favorite babies.
Usually, although fertilizer helps with the actual plant, it's the continued warmth (days and nights) that really spark the plants to send up leaves and show their new growth. Here in Florida, where you pretty much can keep them in the ground or pots year round, they are just now showing the new growth because the days have been very warm, and the nights have stopped going below 50 degrees.
As a semi-rule, alocasias can rot a bit if they get cold or overly wet. A good many colocasias tend to enjoy the wet roots. I have several varieties that actually are growing in my koi poind, in no soil, just propped up with gravel. I have a small hilo in a pot, that has been growing in the sun, but not sure if that's because it does well in the sun, or does well in the sun because it's in a pot where I can keep it's feet a bit moister and cooler. I have purple ruffles, black magic, and violet stem in the pond in full sun, and all grow well.
Black Magic, Red stemmed, and Illustris I do in ponds also.
They love it.
Ric
Does anyone know if Pink China and Pink Aurora are the same plant?
Ric-havent seen you around for a while, happy to hear from you. Just picked up a red stem and illustrious today, so good to know they can take the moister roots, which seems to get most things through the summers here.
I am chimeing in now now.
It sounds like your really going to have to push these plants. I am doubting you can get the size you need in such little time. I can help a bit. First off I hope your using a shaghnum mix something like promix or similar should work well. 1 gallon is about as big as you will need I usually use 2 quart. I find that containing them a bit will prevent it from suckering more and give you one larger plant. After potting them up they will only move between the temps of 60 to 100 so try to keep it warm 75 to 90 is best. Now I doubt your set up like my system but you can do something similar. Water for 2 to 3 weeks with root hormone. After this you should see roots hopefully reaching the bottom or near bottom of the pot. This can depend on species. After this is done I usually hit them with a few different things first off osmacote slow release fertilize is put in the pot. Special note here take your finger or a object and push it down about 2 inches in the soil at the edge of the pot. Then fill this hole with the slow release fertilizer. What this will do is allow the plant to grow roots to the fertilizer. I find it works wonderful and compared to put the fertilizer on top its about double growth in difference. Next I i hit the plants about 1 every 2 weeks with 20 20 20 and about once a month I put epson salt on the plants. You will need the epson salt it will help the plants be a bit tougher. Pushing plants this hard and this fast has its toll. The plants can be tall and weak or brittle this will help prevent this from happening. Here is a picture of my greenhouse. The tables have liners in them and the plants soak in hormone for a few weeks then fertilizer. You need a combination of heat food sun bug pervention.
thanks bwilliams-I am using a sterile soiless mix of peat, vermiculite and perlite. I mixed the triple 14 into the soil when I transplanted, but I am wondering about the amt of liquid fert to use each week. I don;t want to build up the soluble salts too much so I was thinking one heavy hit of 20-10-20-about 200 ppm weekly.. They are going to have to be watered every day/other day because where they are (so close to the heater) it dries out at night, so the slow release will be activated. I don't have a lot of experience in mixing slow release and liquid fert together. I usually use liquid fert in the greenhouse and the slow release in the beds outside when I plant. If I run some EC tests weekly, do you know about what the level should be for these? Are alocaisas heavy feeders like bananas?
One reason I don't use Osmocote is because it needs the soil temp to be 70 degrees to release and triple 14 (essentially the same fert-same micronutrients but 1/3 cheaper) releases at 45 degrees soil temp.
I will apply the epsom salts-1 lb/100 gals rate?
What do you mean bug prevention? what do they get and can you use regular pesticides on them-like talstar or marathon?
Unfortunately some of these have to go in 3 gallon to get the heighth ( and thats what the order is for) Also the Californias are real clumpers and need the width of the pot to get the full effect??
I was pretty impressed with the root growth they had shown in a week-some had covered the bottom of the 3.5" pot in 2 wks-do you really think I need the root hormone? Have never done it and not sure what product you are using. It scares me to have them sitting in water. Do you never have fungus problems with these plants? Pythium and phytopthera scare the crap out of me, and they are supposed to be really prone to them.
Sorry about all the questions, I know there are a lot that I have asked. I think this is the first time that I have taken an order to grow something that I may not be able to get it to where I said I could. Should I have used tubers?
Well root hormone may help. Its not worth all the ferilizer if they don't have the roots to take the food in. So I would suggest a few hits with it. Your numbers sound good with the epson salt and triple 14 is great I wish I could find it more often it works better but harder to find specially here. As for sitting in the water. The water in the tables usually can last 3 to 5 days dependion on heat and sun light here. I sometimes drain them if it has been cool or cloudy but in most cases it will evaporate itself. The only times I have had problems with rot with it was if the water was below 50 or really old stagnate water. I try to keep the pots a bit taller so is the pots are 6 inches tall only one to half a inch is in water. If I use smaller pots I have to keep the water level even lower. The good thing is the greenhouses have radiant heat so the floor stays around 70f constantly. These plants are heavy eaters much like a banana. The only thing I find a problem with sometimes is root damage due to over feeding this can be caused with to much food and not enough root system yet. So that hormone may really help out. If you have some pics I can give you some idea how big and in how long a time. THANKS
Forgot your other question. As for buying tubers compared to TC. Well their are differences to it all. I find TC plants give a good consitant look to all of them meaning they will all be the same size and look. Tubers you may get large plants and small plants it depends. It also depends on who and what your buying from. Some sellers carry better plants than others. I use both just make sure your TC supplier is not getting carried away I have found some will TC many many times before returning to the original plant. Meaning more and more mutations many of which are not very good. If you need any help figuring which forms to grow let me know I have grown just about all of them more than a few times. THANKS
Merry mary I can tell the story or part of the story to both of these plants
Colocasia pink china - I got this out of china over 8 or 9 years ago. I was the one who put it into TC. It is a hardy colocasia much like Basjoo is a hardy banana. It is by far one of the toughest tropical I have ever seen. I suggest everyone grow it at least once to see for themselfs.
Alocasia Pink Aurora this was a hybrid out of Thailand. I am not sure who did the cross but I believe it was a cross between corozon and longloba. It was called Flamingo legs in Thailand and was brought back by Scott hydman who put it into TC. It now goes by Aurora. I have grown only a few and it seems to be a nice plant. Not something I would throw out in the yard more a house plant type grower.
So good plants depending were you want to grow them Colocasias caladiums and xanthosoma all make good out door tropical but not to good house plants. Alocasias are a bit different some do good outside others do good inside. Usually the fancy leaf forms are more for indoors and the larger growers out doors. But look into the hybrids I try to breed the fancy leaf ones with the tough out door ones which then can be used indoor or out side. The best of both worlds.
Thanks bwilliams-I don;t have a digital camera, and the thought of trying to download the picture to a comp correctly is something that gives me nightmares lol. I will try tho with a friends camera. I can tell you that the plants all have 3-4 leaves right now-about 5" high, healthy roots and the color is good on them. The Royal Hilos are about 9" high. The soil temp is never going to fall below 65 degrees.
I buy the triple 14 from Lesco (www.lesco.com) and they have a store in Lexington. Not sure how far you are from them. They will deliver if you are commercial-are you? The bags (40lb) are only about $ 22 and I use them on everything outside-annuals, shrubs, trees etc.
You never said what bugs are attracted to them. I was asking about the tubers in terms of how fast they grow in comparison to the t/c plants after 2 months. Which would be bigger?
One last question-I went a little crazy and potted up about 200 one gallon of these plants. If I don't sell them all this season, can I put them in one of the greenhouses in the late fall and let them go dormant-keep the heat on 45-50 degrees until next January?
Thanks to all that answered-if I can reciprocate with any knowledge about annuals, I would love to. I am a wholesale bedding plant grower, so between growing them, and advising landscapers on what plants do best where, I might have some answers.
Thanks for the info on the pinks Brian.
I have each, but am am struggling with the Aurora. Last season it was very large/bushy and multi-stemmed. Although it was protected during our cold snap a few weeks ago, it seems to have taken a hit. I'm trying to prevent it from getting mushy, and am considering taking it out of the pot all together and letting it airdry for a day or so. Seems to be a bit sensitive.
The China I actually got from you, and the tuber stump appears to be slightly different. I'm looking for a tough one, so if China seems to be what I'm looking for, then I'll switch out the Auroras.
I finally got a camera and figured this out. These are the Californias that are starting to yellow. I tested the PH and EC levels and the PH ranged from 5.4-5.8, and the EC levels were around 2.25. I normally can never get PH this low with this soiless mix, and so I am thinking it was the triple 14 slow release that is driving these numbers down?
Shouldn't the PH be up around 6-6.5? Do the EC levels look good, or can they be higher? The roots look great, and after transplanting them 2 wks ago, there are roots starting to hit the sides and bottom of the pot.
Does anyone know the quickest way to raise the PH besides using a basic fertilizer? I will switch over to a 15-0-15 this week, but I am at about 200ppm, and it can take a while raising the PH this way-esp if the slow release is driving the PH down.
The Californias are the only ones wigging out like this. The others seem ok, the caladoras are a bit yellow.
Here are the caladoras in front and the New Guinea Gold in back. Do you think these caladoras look ok, and will grow to 3-4 ft by May 1st?
Heres another view of the caladoras and the New guinea Gold (in front in this pic)
Here are the Hilo Beauties, Royal Hilos, Black Magic, illustris etc
And last, but not least...because I have always wanted to show the dogs, and never could.....heres Bear. He's not happy about this camera lol
If my greenhouse looked like that right now, I'd get a bathing suit and a heat lamp and live in it! Nice ears!
thanks Badseed, it is a great place to be in the winter-no place better. For the most part I couldn't think of a better job, there are just these "bumps" like the leaves of the California that you have to figure out. I think the PH is too low, and I think its the triple 14 that is doing it. I measured some other gallon cont that I had it in, and the PH was low in them as well. Surprises me. Am going to repot some of the Californias and see if that helps.
Tigerlily,
Is this your greenhouse or do you work for someone else? I would love to take a look at it sometime. I live in Durham, so I'm not very far from you. I love what I have seen so far. It is all so neat and orderly too.
Jesse
Hi Jesse, yes its my greenhouse-I have 3 of them, and right now they are all full-too full lol. Am running out of room and waiting for the temps to break with this cold snap so I can bring the petunias and begonias outside-probably on Monday.
I have to keep it neat-its really hard for me to work in an area thats not. Now in my house-thats a different story-I hate housework with a passion, and could care less about the dog hairs etc-go figure!! lol. Yes sometime if you are in the area, you can come over. Its better later-everything is blooming. It gets a bit hectic late April, early May when we start to send everything out, but before or after that is good.
Thanks tigerlily. The next time I am over that way I wouldl love to stop by. What is the name of it and where are you located?
Jesse
Tigerlily if your leaves are turning yellow I would lay off on fertlizing a bit. Check the roots for any rotting. You said your PH was low or high you can use acid fertilizer or water and wood ash or to bring these up and down. Your plants should move fairly fast once the root systerm is good I sometimes see large jumps after the root system is good and intact. I know that sitting them in root hormone mixture for a few days soaking can make a world of difference. I have Colocasias and alocasias in 2 to 4 weeks with roots coming out of the bottoms once they have this they are then moved to a table that holds fertilizer and allowed to soak in it for a few days. You should have fairly nice size plants soon out of them.
HELP! OK, here's a really stupid question. I bought some cheapies at WalMart (probably colcasia esculenta) and I'm getting different info on planting them. They're about the size of soft balls and already starting to sprout by a bit. Question is.......explain to a dummy exactly how deep to plant them. I planted them so that the tip of the bulb/tuber is about 2"-2 1/2" below the soil line. Keep in mind that the little sprouts were about an inch so that means the total depth is about 1 1/2" - 2" from tip of sprout to soil line. What do you think? Do I need to go outside and dig them up and plant them at a different depth? Someone told me that I should plant them so that the sprout (tip) is still almost emerged. Anything you can tell me will really be appreciated.
Thanks to all,
Barbara
The tip of the bulb should just be under the soil usually 1 to 2 inches depending on the size of the tuber. In most cases the tuber will only put out roots near the growth tip and store energy down into the tuber. So the tip should be just a tad below the soil were the roots can take hold.
Thanks, Brian. I'm off to raise them a little.
tigerlily, we just finished pushing approx 10 of persian palms for our springfest in a zone 4. although we had a little more to start with than you. (stubs from last season already potted).
the horticulturist that i work with uses miracle death (that's what i call it!) like crazy to push them. have to say it worked. we started approx 6 weeks before show time and then where a good 8 feet within that time frame. however, they were also in a greenhouse set at 65 during that time. the heat i think is the main source of helping them grow i must mention though, that i have some in my sunroom that are approx 5 feet at this point. i had overwinter them and continued to keep them down to prevent further grown during those months.
since we do integrated tropical horticulture therapy we have to get a quick and continue results to reach max by the end of our short seasons. too much fertilizing does tend to turn the leaves and does not promote faster growth. as far as the perfect ph...well a good rich "potting" soil has yielded the best results for us. we have been successful with both the blacks and greens in water bogged areas. and while some use liq. fert i like the time released once placed outside for max growth.
with the "greens" aphids are the only critter problem. unlike in your area we have never seen fungus on them at anytime. but they again you mentioned in another thread that you get fungus on your impatients....which is not a common problem here either. the "blacks" have not been possible to overwinter and we start them in april for may planting. however, they tend not to get as large...expect the one i'm showing you a pic of that reached well over 9 feet with a leaf span of over 2 feet. that's my personal garden and the horticultorist attributed such growth to the moist rich soil i used since he couldn't explain it any other way.
hydro beauty i have always planted as a understory plant because of burning concerns. i did do some in a area that rec'd morning sun and they faired well. it is also a much smaller variety and used more for accent that a centerpiece. the blacks are really nice in direct sun as then shine "purple". many can take direct sun.
good luck and with as many as you have started you'll be selling them on ebay by the time your done!
This message was edited Mar 28, 2006 11:26 AM
This is an interesting thread illustrating the considerations of the commercial grower. I suppose most of us hobbyists generally don't need or want to push our plants this hard. But it is nice to have the tools in the toolbox, so to speak. I'm going to try two weeks of rooting hormone on a couple of pomegranates that seem slow to send roots after potting up...thanks! SB
Most commercial growers don't want to push this hard either lol. Normally I don;t take ordeers for certain specifications like this unless I know the plant and know I can do it. It is stressfull, but I do love challenges. I also figured out what made the triple 14 push the PH down-duh.it was sulfur coated. Won't make that mistake again. Have a liquid lime in the mail to raise the PH fast. I found out that the EC levels should be at around 2.25 and the PH around 6.3 or higher. May 1st I will take pictures. I hope they are good pictures. Landscapers' commercial property clients are not fun to deal with. I would hate letting my customer down.
but tigerlily we always tell our clients working with tropical's (we do commercial as well as therapy) we can't guarantee size..... or success...but that' up here in the cold. this year we have 4 large business gardens to do and of course they all want their plants 12 feet high when they are installed.
if you can.....take another pic and show me what they look like now... and let me show it to the horticultorist i work with....he may have some ideas since he's been "pushing" them for years.
tigerlily is the absolute master! LOL I don't know how she does what she does but I am completely impressed. Aside from getting everything done, she has time to help me, chat with me and give me great ideas on things. She has given me loads of helpful hints, took 2 hours out of her day, for a great phone call, to help me find a solution for running out of space, etc. We hadn't even met until last week!
yes badseed isn't wonderful when you find someone that is such a master at all things....i have been so fortunate to be working with the best..... actually....and this is sooooooo cool and i didn't even know it because the guy i work with is so sweet and never gives himself enough credit...but Ken Druse (writer of at least 12 gardening books a few on the best seller list also writer for the New York Times)...even devoted a few pages to the wonderful person i work with in his book "The Passion for Gardening". and was so cool the last time Ken spoke he also mentioned our work! i guess anyone crazy enough to work with tropicals up here is nuts anyway! but one thing i learned is even the best go to each other for advise:)
Most my knowledge on plants is from trial and error as it seems most all the things I have learned in life. Their have been some mentors the old growers in Florida who have wonderful gradens and plants. I usually soak up all they say and I try to douplicate their growing conditions. Some have been around for many years and know all the little tricks it takes to make a plant grow and thrive. The best I think is meeting the person who discovered or breed the plant not to mention the ones who have amazing stories of collecting plants in the jungle risking life and limb to get the holy grail of plants. The people are sometimes just as interesting if not more than the plants themselves.
I appreciate everything that everyone has said to help me here. Its nice to know that I can come to this place and people care about "plant problems" .
It is very true about learning through trial and error, its what I have done my whole growing career, and esp learning from those that have "been there"-other growers, professors at universities etc.
The good and the bad of being in a situation like this is that everyone-growers included, have different answers and before you know it-you could be running in a lot of different directions. The good is that you learn more than before the problem. Sometimes I think it takes a problem to start the learning.
I know that the PH has to come up. I am sure that because the PH is too low (esp for the California) it is not getting certain micronutrients, which in turn, block other micronutrients. So that is what I am addressing right now. It takes time to turn something like this around, and I just need patience.
I appreciate the offer you gave me Tobee43 to have your horticulturist look at pictures-that was very nice of you. And if you want to ask him what he thinks, that would be great. I have a feeling though, that he will say to raise the PH, and the fastest way to do that is with a liquid lime application.
I am sorry that I have not responded much-this is the very busiest of times right now, and we are in the process of moving outside hundreds of flats-I am so tired lol.
bewilliams...well...i for one can't say that i have ever seen anything lovelier than your cannas.soooo it appears that whatever trial and error method you use has lead to some pretty spectacular results! and bewilliams you made me laugh about your use of the "holy grail of plants". one day as i was working in the green house i spotted a little pup of a joe hoak agave. i was delighted when i was informed that it was going to be mine. it was then explained to me with every bit of detail of how the joe hoak was the holy grail of the agave world and a one half hour story followed. (and i just thought it was pretty...what did i know!). well.....after the story i realized i was NEVER getting that agave.....and i was right he would covet it in the months that followed and i could never say a word since i knew what it meant to him. eventually i did get one but......not that pup!
tigerlily..i did speak with him and he goes agree about the ph factor, however he told me to tell you since your in 7b you will be assured a very quick growth rate and in 4 weeks they can reach a nice height. and then of course he mentioned the miracle death...yuck but he says they respond. and i most certainly do agree with bewilliams....about trial and error, unfortunately it sounds like you don't have much room for that right now! and there's the "it" factor....it worked for her but it didn't work for him!! can we ever really know??
This message was edited Mar 30, 2006 9:10 PM