Help! Advice needed for skimmers/filters

Hi folks - I need your expert advice and preferences regarding skimmers/filter systems. I first thought I could have a natural balance in my animal friendly water garden, but failed to take into account the two huge trees (lindenwoods) whose leaves make a beeline for the entire water course. My brothers and I put it in last May, and I LOVE IT! I spent all summer planting the gardens, but soon learned that netting the pond every day still didn't keep up with those darned leaves. Also, I had real difficulty keeping up with the algae blooms - both string and the other kind. Anyway, I'd appreciate any advice since I got completely confused when I saw all the different choices of skimmers and filters there are out there. HELP!! I'll go through the general specs with some pictures - what would work the best for this set-up? I don't care about perfectly clear water, but don't want it to be murky green either. I think a skimmer would take care of the leaves before too many of them sink - right?

This will take about five separate messages -
Falls - 6' height - 7' length
Top Pond - 8' X 10' - 18" depth - Oval shape
Bog - 6' X 8' - 12" depth - Rectangle - filled with pea gravel, lava rock, other stone
Pumps - Bog - 350GPH; Falls - 3600GPH

Top Stream -

Length - 40'
Turns at second level
5' wide
6" deep
Pools at each small falls

Bottom Stream

Length: 20'
Width: 5'
Depth: 6"

Bottom Pond

Diameter - 18' - roughly circular
Depth - Graduated - 3' greatest depth
Overall gallons - 4,500

Pump - 4,800 GPH - Takes water from bottom pond to top pond. Separate pump is used for the top waterfall.

Have a variety of submerged and top of pond plants, grasses.

Since pond is for animals, I have fish, and one side of the bottom pond has a beach that animals to go in and drink. I checked the water all summer and it was always very healthy, even when the algae was everywhere. I have various types of goldfish, as you can see, and they did very well. Grew about 4 inches over the summer, and had babies twice.

This last photo is simply to give a feel for the whole layout - since I'm not sure where a skimmer should go - should I have more than one? Should I have multiple filters? What kind would be best? Would appeciate your opinions - Thanks in advance - Dax

Nice pond, dax! If it were mine, I'd only add one skimmer. Personally, I wouldn't add filters. You have plenty of rock stream and water flow to keep that water clean. Especially if you can plant a few filtering plants directly in that rock.

My pond set up is similar to yours minus a couple of features. I have a 9 x 12 raised bog that spills into a 5000 gallon pond. The planted rock bog is my filter and I have a skimmer. The pond stays completely clear and healthy.

I'd put the skimmer in the bottom pond across from the spillway or possibly in the opposite corner. You might want to check out Savio Skimmers. I have one and I love it. It's very sturdy and does it's job well.

Here's a link that will help. http://www.azponds.com/Skimmers.htm I ordered mine from them and they were very helpful, they know their stuff!

This message was edited Feb 12, 2006 9:26 AM

Ditto on the Savio skimmer. I have one on a much smaller system (2000 gal). It works very well. The pond does have a rock bottom (flat smooth river stone).

Thanks Branka and Snapple - I'm so glad to hear I will not need to have a filter if I have enough running water, etc. You mentioned filtering plants - do you have any favorites that work well? I've been told that within a few years, the plants and bog will mature and that will balance the algae blooms - did that work for you?

And I'll follow right up with the Savio skimmer. And place directly across from the spillway - OK - I'll check back after I check out the skimmers - THANKS MUCH!!
Dax

I've been looking and one last question - should I go larger? That's what the advice is, but not sure for a skimmer - the 5,000 GPH should work, but should I go to the 8,500? The opening size increases from 8.5" to 16" - ?? Dax

I have the 8,500 on my 2000 gal. I wouldn't want smaller. If making space for it is not a problem I would use the 8,500. They easily disguise. I have two 25watt uv clarifiers in it. My pump is a pond master mag drive 3600 that pumps the water up to the waterfall. I do use the savio waterfall filter too, but I don't believe that you need it. Your system looks to be very well balanced. I have a high fish load. The skimmer filter keeps the surface absolutely clear of debris and it has some filtering action on its own.

Great! - Will do - I've got the space - It didn't look as though the pump is in the bottom of this Skimmer, but I can't tell from the picture - does the pump attach to the bottom? I've got a Pond Master submersible pump -

Hi Snapple45 - Gorgeous pond - hope mine looks as good in a few years - how many Koi do you have? Any goldfish? This year is first I'm wintering the fish - so far they seem to be doing just fine - I've just got 2 koi - small ones - any tips? Dax

dax080 - high fish load from stupidity! I have 7 koi, all in the 18" to 20" range and about 24 gold fish. We (spouse) & I relocated about 100 goldfish last summer. Can you sing "Born Free". We broke a couple of laws in the "relocation". Don't add goldfish to a pond unless you can net them easily when they breed out of control! This is the fifth season for this pond. We plan on eliminating the goldfish entirely.
There is a small bog garden on the NE end not in the picture but it is not connected. This year I am using a 1500 watt stock tank deicer. That plus the abnormally warm weather has kept the pond completely ice free all winter. A remote pond thermometer registers about 40 to 44 at the 3 1/2 foot depth consistently. The floating stack tank heater is expensive to operate and you have to periodically remove it to clean the scale off the heating element. Lower wattage deicers will keep enough water open to allow for the pond gasses to vent and the fish did just fine when I used them in previous winters. If you like watching your fish swim around in January and February and dont mind the cost and maintenance then try the stock tank heater. Otherwise the 300 watt deicers do the job for a lot less money. What are you using for a hole in the ice now? Some ponders who are braver than I keep their pumps running all winter. The thought of a power or pump failure and frozen lines in below freezing weather has me shutting down the system when night temperatures are predicted to fall consistently below 40. Incidentally I think your layout is terrific. It took four years to get all the greenery arrainged and to finish some of the hardscape for mine. Yours is great already.

I'd go with the larger skimmer too, when you buy they should be able to advise you. I don't have the UV lights in mine. I thought to add them later, but so far have not had a need.

I have a lot of different stuff planted in my bog. Arrowhead, mint, pennywort, corkscrew, iris, water celery and even a lily, to name a few. It doesn't take long at all for the plants to do their thing and they will florish in all that muck!

OK - I'll be sure to follow-up with the largest skimmer, and will hold on the UV for now. And thanks for the names of plants - I'd like to see the whole bog covered with plants - what do you think of cat tails? I like the way they look, but they are very tall!

As far as de-icer, I'm using a feed tank unit and it's doing very well, keeps a circle of about 5' in diameter open. Since our January was so warm, it hasn't been frozen over as much as I thought it would be - I've found that going to the farm supply shop is much less expensive than the Water Pond places for some of the needed supplies. I'm like you with the pump staying on - I took them all out for the winter - just can't get past the danger which could quickly fry my fish and other animals if it froze, etc.

Hey, Branka, got a picture? I'd love to see your set-up. I like your edging stones, Snapple. Right now, the edges of my ponds look very fakey - I'm trying to figure out how to get a more natural effect. And also, the backs of the falls are still showing the black liner, (see picture) and I've got to figure out how to naturally cover that this year - any ideas?

Dax

I haven't tried cattails because of the size. But, they do have mini cattails that are supposed to be just as nice only on a smaller level.

Would it work if you leaned flagstone against the back of the falls to hide the liner? I have a couple of places where my liner shows and I still haven't found a good permanent solution.

Here are some pictures of my pond.

The bog was added in the fall of 2003. This picture was taken in early spring of 2004. It's the only one I have that shows a good portion of the rock bog. There are no plants yet except the aquatic iris. Which, by the way, is an excellent plant for filteration.

This one is of the pond taken last summer when everything was flourishing. You can see the spillway falls from the bog. My skimmer is installed directly across from the spillway.

This last one is a side view, bog on left, pond on right. If you look closely you can see the arrow head, a water lily and other plants in the bog. I really need to try to get a better shot of all of this next summer.

Gorgeous, Branka - Knew it would be, somehow - I really like that you have more water in the bog - mine so far hasn't been that deep, but I'll shore up the front side so there can be some standing water. I've got irises in the bottom pond, and so can easily plant some in the bog. We must have come up with the idea of the piled flag stone at about the same time - I'm going to try that this spring before I can get in the gardens (which won't be until late April/May) I think it'll finish it off much better. Both yours and Snapple's look so much more mature, but I'm looking forward to watching it grow this summer. Thanks again - Dax

Thanks you two - just got my Savio Filter (largest I could find) in the mail and it looks like I can manage the installation. Easy to follow directions and good pictures! It'll be another couple of months before I can get to work, but I'll send pictures and Thanks when I get it done - any tips or anything I should watch out for since I'm installing it after the pond has been in a year? Dax

dax080 - The critical area is where the you attach the liner and face plate. Be exacting in keeping the liner squeaky clean and totally flat. A extra pair of hands here might help. The pond store we purchased our system from warned us to be extrta careful there and even suggested we put a competitors product around the screw holes and between the liner and edges of the face plate. "Aquascape Designs Black Silicone Sealant for ponds." We did. No leaks!

http://www.petsr4u.com/proddetail.asp?prod=N22010

Got it - I've certainly got extra hands with a teenage son (of course, I'll have to catch him first). And thanks for the link for the sealant - hadn't heard of it before - will one tube be enough? Dax

One tube will be more than enough. Good luck catching the son! We did ours with absolutely no prior experience. Not quite a piece of cake but but certainly doable with moderate effort. Now if only it would warm up!

Hi - Thought I'd send an update - I've got the Savio Skimmer/Filter and the Sealant - and have decided to put in two UV filters on the sides - then went ahead and ordered a pump to finish the whole unit - now, how did I get out of control there. Anyway, I don't have everything here yet, but thought I'd send a pic of where I'm planning on placing it - directly across from the falls. You can see where the liner is showing - that's where the skimmer would go. The falls don't show in the picture, but they are directly out of sight on the far right side - The water's low since I'm going to need to lower it more when I put in the skimmer anyway, and I'll be changing out about half of the water of the pond. Let me know if you think this looks OK - I can still change it if I'm making a mistake somewhere. - Dax

Oh, and I've finished putting the stone backing on the falls - below is a picture in which you can see all three of the smaller ones - I think they look great! Dax

Hay Dax, Looks teriffic! I am impressed. You want as much distance from the falls to the skimmer as you can engineer. The flow from the falls, or the "pour out" as I am told it is called by the professionals, can serve as an areator depending on the pump size. That was the hardest part we had to figure our exactly. We wanted to move enough water to keep the pond properly filtered and add areation from the agitation when the falls hit the pond but not so much that we had a noisy mini Niagra. Also I did not want to wind up with too strong a flow that would disturb the water lillies. We wound up with a pondmaster Model 36a. It is a little on the high side for flow but the koi love it. They run up and dive and roll under the falls over and over! One thing I do different is I make my own replacement filter mats. I found a heavier denser matting that lasts much longer and traps a lot more debris. www.aquaticeco.com. It is not expensive and trimming the stuff (it comes in a roll) is easy. The greater density does slow the flow ever so slightly. This is all just too much fun isnt it!? Thanks for the update. You have a real showpiece there in that pond!
Mary

Thanks so much, and I'll certainly follow-up on the link for the filter - BUT - I think I've made a major blunder and need you advice! Because of the size, and, like you, I like to have a respectable flow for aeration, etc., I got a Pondmaster 50 - I now run a 4,800 gph, and it really needs it with about 20 feet of head height and 60 ft. of stream to the bottom pond - BUT again, I really wanted to see about cleaning the water for algae more. So I got two of the 57 UV filters to fit in the sides of the skimmer/filter. Thought everything was going great UNTIL I heard from another thread that the water will be moving too quickly for the UV's to work!! Help!! Please advise - what do you do? Should I just forget it and send them back - (haven't opened the boxes yet) - I'd appreciate all help here! Dax

Yikes! The cost!! But, you are ok for flow, well within the recommended range. Check out this link -

http://www.ponds2go.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SSKIM16257&Show=TechSpecs


I would keep them, definitely. The 57's are strong enough to be effctive with the flow you have. I see your point in checking. No point in spending that kind of dough for a pair of night lights. The thread you read was wise to caution the sizing of uv's to flow rate. Again, I think your pond and gardens are really special. I greatly admire them.
Mary

Oh Mary - thanks so much - and you're exactly right - I'll spend it if it will help the algae control, but it's way too much money, and effort, to find out it wouldn't work - Loved your comment about two nightlights! I had not seen that precise a guideline, and simply assumed. I'm getting to work on it tomorrow then - can hardly wait! And I appreciate your comments about the garden as a whole - it has become a VERY special place for me, and also is becoming home for a wide variety of wildlife. I truly know what meditation is now since sometimes I just stop on the bridge in the middle, and just take it all in for about 10 minutes. I'll be sending pics and will most likely be asking for more advice (and believe me, I'll be following all that you have been so kind to send) - And yes, it is just TOOOO much fun - I'll be following your advice about the goldfish, I think - I started with 7 last year and now have 27!! Why do you like the Koi better? I see we're in the same zone, so you're probably with me in being envious of the others who already have lilies and lotus blooming - I only have two lilies and at this point, I'm wondering if they are dead - not a sign of life yet - what do you think? Talk to you soon - here's a quick shot, just taken today - two Mallards! What about them? Should I shoo them off, or will they be good tenants? Dax