Plantfiles for Ensete

Hi All! I mentioned to admin that some of the photos under Ensete ventricosum are Ensete ventricosum 'Maurelii'.

I was emailed by Baa and told that "In cases of possible mistaken ID, we encourage the user who spots the potential problem to post their question to the accompanying threads (using reasonable tact, of course.) In that way, we get the photographers involved in the identification process right off the bat, and it is part of the "peer review" environment we try to develop with PlantFiles.)"

I don't know how to "post the question to the accompanying threads" so I'm asking here. I may very well be wrong but it is my belief that the species is green. Comments and thoughts anyone?

I don't know much about Ensete so can't comment on your real question, but to "post to the accompanying threads" I think means if you open up the questionable picture in PF, there is a link that says click here to discuss this photo, which opens up the thread for that photo in the PF Pictures forum and you can ask your question there.

oh, thanks ecrane3. I didn't see that before. Thanks for pointing that out!

hello from cold UK,

i have an ensete ventricosum, I have just started using dg seriously and have posted pics of other nanas, musa sikkimensis, Williams hybrid, and YES I do have a photo of this when I get around to it I will post it, but for all interested I will put it on here now. i grew it from seed, only 1 out of 55, but what a one....germinated earlier this year and already getting humungous, nice red stripe on back midrib and now indoor for our freezing weather.
the other matter, I think if you post a reply from the plant file that will be there for all to view, if you click on the users name you find their info page and can send a private 'subtle' dmail from there...I have just been doing this with another user with the Williams hybrid as it was incorrectly informed on the plant file and has now been corrected, my photo is the first one...a great site I found for bananas is www.webebananas.com with blue numbers thru the text to click on, giving ww sites on the sources.

the photo was taken 7th Sept

Hi wallaby1,

Nice E. v.! Next year it should put on a good show. Your pic shows nicely the green underside of the leaf and the redish midrib with green leaves. I made a mistake by putting this request for proper ID. Lesson learned. I'll put it over on the Plantfiles with the pics. I didn't know that's how it works. My folks unfortunately cut my M. sikkimensis to the ground thinking it was a M. basjoo and saying it was in the way. Sounds like you're doing simular in almost the same climate.

Hi growin

We all learn from experience, not to worry! i shouldn't worry about your sikkimensis, mine haven't been tried outdoors yet, but frosts will cut the stem to the ground, it is made up of leaf sheaths and hollow. The new growth comes from the root corm, nanas make a hard underground sort of corm and if not frozen this should resprout, more than likely you will get it sprouting from the sides making offsets, some can be removed to make more plants. not sure how old they have to be to do this, I'm just beginning on them, have left one in a cold greenhouse from 1st germination & 1 in shed, left dry hopefully the will get thru the winter. 1 more in the house, 3 younger ones all in house. sold 1 of each on ebay. have to risk them to know, we are zone 8a but normally not much beyond -5C, occasional higher to -9, last winter only 5 frosts to -5 & -6C, this year already on 6th in a row, last 4 to -4C, 1st -2C, very cold week to come.
Last year I got a basjoo thru in the shed, but hasn't grown like the sikkimensis, had a very cool summer, has some offsets waiting at the bottom, but they were there last winter! it is an offset from a foot tall one I bought, it grew quickly and quite large but rotted over winter, it was still in the stuff I bought it in although had potted it on, peat will give improper roots and the plant won't live long.
Once the plant flowers it will die anyway, and if it keeps getting frosted then one advantage is it will last longer!
Make sure you cut off one is welll mulched to keep frosts out, I will try some in the ground when bigger, have very free draining soil and can grow many slightly tender things, more so if I grow them myself from seed the correct way, thye are healthier and hardier, I've lost a lot of bought plants but my seed grown ones do well.
I have many plants to put on file so keep a watch, also musa balbisiana, I grow anything takes my fancy, but have been busy with the competition so will get back to the files soon.
good luck with th m sikk if they haven't dug it up!

I for one don't like to tell people when the make mistakes on here or other sites. I find it sometimes hard to word things with out sounding like a smart @$$ or a know it all. So in most cases I won't tell people unless they ask. I have found it easier on me this way LOL. As for Ensete Ventricosum this is a very versatile species. Maurellii is a form of ventricosum. Form what I have seen there are a lot of different forms of this one species. It's like having a breed of dogs and some are Brown and others are white. They are still the same breed but different forms. I have some Ensete ventricosum from seed with bright orange mid veins it is fairly odd. Growing them from seed you will find some variations from seed to seed. I have seen variegated Ensetes which are quite impressive. But unless TCed or speared through the center to force pups it will not be reproduced. I have tried crossing Ensete with good results on the seeds. But I have yet to germinate any I should have some next spring. I also have about 15 plants ready to bloom so hopefully I will have some new hybrids the coming years. David Constantine is a botanist in England with a site called The Musaceae. He maybe the most informed person on musa species and relatives. I have contacted him a few times in e-mail about certain species and hardiness.

hi bwilliams

i too have come across the site you mention, there are links to that and any worthwhile banana www site on the one I mentioned above. Alphabetic listings with all info on every banana with references in blue numbers if clicked on lead to the site each bit of info came from, you will be amazed at how good it is. I found it when searching for info on the aeae banana, as I was emailed by a well-meaning member who noticed my comment on the file for musa Williams hybrid, the photo was in a queue but is now posted. She knew the aeae to be green and white, but hadn't heard of the Williams, and they were under the same heading. I had mentioned the red colouring which didn't deem right to her, and she was advised to contact me to see if we could sort it out, as it appears that is what dg wants us to do, there are mistakes, and if members pick up on it they can be rectified. If not there would be a lot of errors and confused viewers! I was a little confused when seeing the aeae mentioned, but assumed it must be correct. When new to the site not everything is instantly obvious, and takes a little to get the hang of its workings. It seems anyone can add a new plant, so you see errors may occur.
Please take a look at this site www.webebananas.com and go to Williams hybrid, click on the number I think 028 next to the mention of it. It will take you to a Florida site with all the technical info and origins, all links take you to different sites.
It is a great idea for these forums to help people out, I think we can forgive growin his error, I certainly do, he has realised his mistake.
i know what you mean about wording things, hope I don't sound like a smart ******, but we shouldn't shy away from tackling a problem. Maybe you should give it a go, after all you have done well here, it can boost your confidence and I think most of us gardeners are forgiving understanding people.
Away from the righteous bit!.....you either don't have frosts or have a huge greenhouse....15 plants about to bloom???? Now I am jealous, here I am wondering how I am going to overwinter mine when big and you have a plantation with flowers!!! It's exciting growing things from seed isn't it, particularly when you KNOW you will get variations, almost like waiting to see what a new born baby is like......oh how I wish I could do the same... not as if I don't try...
How do you germinate them, I got 55 from a supplier here, albeit on ebay, he had a web site which I can't find now, bagged up next to heat in dark cupboard. The one I got was really robust.
TCed? Does that mean trunked? or 'cut off'. Sounds like you have looked well into it, what else do you grow? you of course are right about the Maurelii, but here I suppose I shied away from saying it so am as guilty as you. It would be useful if the contributor actually mentioned that in the caption above the picture. I put a camellia sasanqua 'Navajo' on, no file for the cultivar so put it in sasanqua file hoping they might make a new one, but no. Up to me I think, but I did mention the cultivar name.
We get there in the end,

Hi wallaby1 et all. TC=Tissue Culture which is how I got into Ensete so much lately. My friend asked me to do tissue culture of Ensete. What a learning experience! I hope I can get some successful plants out of it. In my friend's greenhouse I obssess with correct ID so maybe it was my mistake for bringing it up and it was just enthusiasm, no more. It was more learning on my part to be able to tell them apart.

I'll be digging out the M. sikkimensis and potting it up and placing it under the grow lights in the greenhouse to get it growing and maybe try it in the TC. I found out the best way to get Ensete to "pup" is to damage the growing point. I'm not sure how to do this right without wrecking the main plant. I sure would like to get ahold of a variegated Ensete. The Ensete superbum looks like an elegant species as well.

Happy Banana Growing

Proper ID is a great thing and should be saught after. I just find a lot of people seem to not be interested in it unless they are asking for it specifically. So if any of you want a ID on a plant just ask I will do my best. But I hate correcting people it can step on toes at least for me it seems.
As for Ensete TC seeds maybe your best way. They are sterile and easier to handle. If you do well I can supply you with some interesting forms in the spring. I have superbum and a few other new species out of Thialand and Africa. The flowers on these plants are amazing and hybridizing them is extremely easy the only hard part is getting them to bloom at the same time. I have been working on breeding more bananas as well. It is a bit of a pain to get out the ladder not to mention dig the plant up in the fall to have the fruit rippen. But it is worth it and so few try breeding them.

As for hardiness the following bananas have shown to be hardy if properly mulched here in zone 6 Kentucky. -10f , Proper mulching meaning 8 inches to 2 ft of hard wood mulch or dried leaves. Cyperus mulch does not rot well neither does the chunky wood mulch. You would need a mulch that breaks down fast producing a cacoon over your plant. Usually I can have 2 inches of frozen material and the center area can have steam coming out. Saw dust works well. A piece of black plastic on top can help a lot as well to heat up the spot and keep water out I do not do this often but people in colder climates could use it to keep from digging up the plants. Here is the list of bananas
Basjoo
velutina
sikkimensis
itinerans
cheesmani
as well as three other species I am testing have shown to be fairly hard so far. Most of these other forms are not yet named out of china.


I also added a photo of Ensete ventricosum from this summer. This plant is now 5 ft taller and blooming size.

Ensete flower this was one of my plants that flowered years ago. Also Growin on your question about Ensetes reproducing by suckers. Some species have been found to send out pups if cut down I have been trying when I have the heart to take a steal rod and shove it directly down the center of the plant. A hormone is released into the banana tuber when the meristem is damaged that causes it to pup out. This is also seen in Musa species and is a way to propagate Bromeliads as well. I know it sounds a bit crazy to tell someone to do this to there plants but it has been used on bromeliads for many years. I would think in TC the more you damage the meristems the more and more plants you will produce. In many cases this is used in TC to produce more out of one batch. Good luck.

I thought I would share this image as well. This is extremely interesting to look at the family tree of all bananas and other relatives. I dont think Ensetes are properly ID on this chart it was done in 1926 and the group Ensete was known or put into place yet? As for the most interesting part for me is the last two at the end of the family line. Lowia and Orchidantha these two are some hard to find plants. I have two forms of orchidantha I believe Lowia was later placed in the orchidantha group. But these plants look nothing like the others on this family line. When in flower these look like orchids usually with black flowers. The leaves are paddle to spear shaped. I wonder how many of you have ever seen a flower their is one pic on the interenet of a flower off of it the only photo I have seen of a flower besides one other firend.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/musaceae001.htm

So bwilliams, if the same chemical, BAP (N-6-benzyladinine) is sprayed on a Hosta it will sucker significantly more than normal. http://www.hostatissueculture.com/gettingbiggerfaster.htm . I'm thinking this same application can be used on Ensete and Musa that don't pup often instead of thrusting a metal pole into the meristem of a banana. The reference to BAP-10 in the link, I'm presuming, is 10% of benzyladinine. It's the chemical used for multiplication in tissue culture. I'm going to give this a bit of a try as a test to see if it works. As for the tissue culture, I've gone into it realizing I'm new at it but will persist until I the gist. Damaging the meristem is mentioned repeatedly, especially for Ensete.

The 1926 image of the order Zingiberales was redone in "Heliconia, An Identification Guide" by Fred Berry & W. John Kress and they do not include Ensete as it is part of Musaceae. They also have a picture of Orchidantha maxillariodes on p. 36. I can't say I see the relation but having grown them I'm sure you can see where that comes in. I wish you success with the hybridizing. Here we've had success with M. sikkimensis, M. basjoo, M. yunnan, Musella lasiocarpa and trying a few others.

Nice tall greenhouse you have in the background. :-)

Hi everyone, I'm back, and enjoying every minute of this!
Evidence of how a healthy discussion can be started, and I am learning more from both of you. I find it difficult to get others interested in new things and trying what others think can't be done! Here I have found some pretty good enthusiasts, and hope to learn more from you.
I wasn't aware anyone could do their own TC (thanks), gives me something else to look into. The link on hosta culture is very interesting, only read 1st paragraph and liked the bit on lawnmower method, haven't a clue on the Rossizing and Zumbarising? Oh well, here goes, more research!
Zone 6 and you get flowers? i had hopes but this must be a cert for me now, do you keep your 'greenhouse'...the big one was right wasn't it!...heated during these ungodly temperatures? Don't know about the digging, need a JCB for that. Don't think my wheelbarrow would hold one of those, the shed although useful is not quite on your scale.

Needless to say I am VERY impressed, gives me hope, i am an Australian used to warmer climate (many years ago though) and will not accept tropics can't be achieved in the UK.

bwilliams, our toes are there to be trod on! how else would we learn?? I for one really appreciate input, and like you think things should be correctly identified. Perhaps a suggestion to dg on 'how to go about things', with specific info like ID above a plant pic to save confusion, and how to list a new plant, how to contact a member, etc. i have notice at the top of a plant file there is a 'new plant' tab, where you can list one, and I believe a dg admin will fill in and check details, but imagine all the work that can be thrown their way when if we do our homework it would be made much simpler. I believe this is the form of communication dg wishes, a garden site for gardeners, those who can help and those who want to learn, all in our interests.
Say, don't suppose you would think of me when you have some spare seed would you? I may be able to reciprocate with some things, I have fresh seed from a zantedeschia Pink Mist, a few species agapanthus seed, I save all sorts and try all sorts and would like someone enthusiastic to have them. Tried selling some on ebay, i got one enthusiast and don't need all the seed myself, also have heaps of cardiocrinum giganteum finishing tonight, 3 lots don't think will sell, sold 2. If you look on ebay.co.uk and look for kangy1 you will see them, if auction finishes the feedback link will show it, but need to be a member or I could post a photo.
Don't like the sound of the stab in the heart, with only one plant that would be hard to do! Damage does cause multiple production as the poor plant obviously thinks it is about to die......I have had eucomis bicolor in the ground a few years and they self seed, young plants at surface went thru -9C no damage.....BUT 1 of 3 plants is different, no purple spots, flowers the same but smaller top knot. All have increased their crowns, the spotted ones only to 3 or so, the unspotted had around 25 by last year 5 years from planting, I wondered if it had a genetic mutation. i got the zantedeschia Pink Mist from David Fenwick of theafricangarden in UK, sent him some as he is involved in national collections, and genetic origins, tissue culture etc. he suggested it may have been damaged by frost and to plant it deeper, but it was quite deep and the young ones didn't get damage, they seat themselves lower with time. His own plants only make 1 main crown, I was wondering if the stony sandy soil I grow it in made a difference. Any ideas?

Will put you an image in of the cardiocrinum anyway....it's a good'un

I personally have not had any luck with cardiocrinum giganteum I am guessing we are to hot in the summer months. Or I don't have a good shady area for them. I am a believer of the impossible myself. I have been told many times things will not cross pollinate only to prove everyone wrong. Some are not easy and take years to set seed but I don't see the harm in trying. I have been breeding new hybrids of zantedeschia for the past few years as well as eucomis which both have been hardy here. So far no new flowers but still a lot of plants are getting to that stage. The best way at the moment to get something completely new and unusual is through breeding. But in most cases not many people are doing this either lack of knowledge time or effort. But the potential for very new things are all around. I try to put pollen on very different plant I usually stay in the same genus or family but go for extremes. Like the orchidantha pollen on a banana or musella on a ensete these crosses have potential to be possible. I am wondering if any of you have seen were Thiala is on a family chart? I would like to do breeding with this group and I know it is closely related to Cannas I have tried to put pollen on both but am wondering if their are other plants more closely related to thiala than cannas? Does anyone know on this I need to do more research myself. As for seeds and plants. I don't mind at all ship people things specially the tons of extras I never mess with but time is the biggest problem with me usually spring is a blur and summer stressful lol. But I do like to help out specially when testing hardiness or helping someone get their TC abilities going. This helps me know the range the plants have for hardiness as well as gives me a person that may one day do personal TC for me on some plants. As for breeding plants it is one of the most exciting and interesting things I have ever done in my life. The trick is to breed enough stuff that every day is exciting and new. It may take 1 to 5 years to see the results or reap the rewards but when you have a lot of different things going at once you will find that the time flies and the seedlings you were once working with are mature plants and that you now have seedlings from them growing. What I try to do is picture a plant I want usually its a huge colorful alocasias then I try to find the parents that can give me this hybrid if they don't exist you may have to make the parents to get the one your really after. The purple canna I have is a perfect example everyone said purple is not in Cannas and will never be. I know its not the greatest purple but it does have purple in it and that maybe all I need to make a whole new spectrum of cannas.

bwilliams......
IS THERE ANYTHING YOU HAVEN'T TRIED??????
I am seen as a nutcase when it comes to trying plants, and find I have to slow down to catch up, not that I want to but ...well I guess you already do know......do you do this for a living or a hobby? you have reached a much more advanced stage than I have ...as yet..but have given me an insight and I am still alive and kicking so here I come!
The cardiocrinum is the second of 2 offsets, first tried seed not viable, bought a bulb but as ready to flower don't establish well and only got to 3 feet high, but got seed, and sown fresh they do germinate over the next winter, some 2 years later, and yes the time does go anyway, so I see it as you do, why not start it off, worth a try. i have sold most of the seed grown bulbs, still small after 5 years, seed varies and some have better embryos so get off sooner, have 2 large and 2 medium off sets from first offset which took 4 years to flower (gave 1 large, 2 medium away besides), 2nd flowered this year in 5th year, looked much lusher but got to around 2 metres with a cool summer and flowered early, but flowers much different, more colour than last years. Last years got to around 8 ft had a v hot summer 2months no rain and well into high 20's to 30C. Also was in a slightly shaded spot, so did OK really. Have yet to dig this years offsets up, should be more with the extra year, weather turned nasty too soon.
NOW I have a bone to pick with you, what was that you were saying about trying? I challenge you to try this again! Even I wasn't going to sow more seed, but found myself thinking I should, why not? Easy, just sow and leave outside, don't know if your winters too cold though. I'm in a zone 8a to 8b, but in 1982 we had 3 months frost and snow down to -20C, not far off yours. I wasn't at my present home then though, have only had 7+ years here and done quite a lot, but I want a big shed like yours!
nice lasiocarpa, haven't tried that yet, want to , but you know...the spare room can't cope yet, I am getting inventive at space finding! Surprised at the size at flowering, seen photos in wild, they' been very fat, must get some.
I have other zantedeschias coming along, taking a while to bulk up but getting there, got Mr Martin this year, flowered with seed already germinated. Also have a bright red one just flowered, seed not sure if ripe enough but may be, albomaculata made seed still waiting, buried 1 seed head 2 years ago next to plant, they all germinated in summer the following year, still small. Last year loads of seed but not ripe enough (hot summer needed cool?), split them and got just a few . I have read some seeds germinate better if buried as a whole. Also a z. 'Cameo' missed flowering this year not had seeds. Do they hybridise naturally? If so I could get some crackers. Can't wait.
i also went mad and bought a lot of expensive hemerocallis from blue ridge daylilies this year, there is very little here, and most new ones any good get bought up, if they propogate quickly it takes 20 years to get to the market, sorry can't wait. Looking forward to having fun with those.
Purple canna could be good, another cross could bring out something interesting, i have some, tried a Canna Australis this year, but scold spring rotted it. have Black Knight, Durban, couple of others. bought a x ehemanii this year also, it has grown but not a lot.
Have you heard of canna altensteinii? I've got one. Seed grown from chilternseeds.co.uk, 1 out of 8, is double 2 bulbous tubers together, don't think is 2 separate, rest rotted. Only other place i have seen it ww is Table View Nursery in Cape Town, the rhs.org site should show it.
Another, eucomis vandermerweii 'octopus' (not sure if spelt that right) this year I got here, can't find it anywhere else ww, trying to think of the nursery, got it somewhere. It did make some leaves so hopeful, much darker red marking than the standard one, think I found something about its breeding on a Dutch site.

Photo here of the red calla, no name

Nice calla you may want to check out Paul christians place he should be able to ship to you his prices are a bit high but he has things no one else does. Callas can hybridize naturally but I find them very easy to cross pollinate you dont need much a paint brush and in one flower then to the next. In most aroids the female is fertile then it stops receving and the flower drops the pollen. So if you get pollen take it to other flowers that are just opening or not yet produced pollen. The prettiest forms of Callas I have seen are the stripped forms with red white and yellow streaks down the flowers. It looks as though someone painted them. As for the eucomis I have about 9 forms now the one your talking about is a small form with red to dark spots on the leaves. I hope to cross this one onto some of the larger forms. One I grow gets 4ft tall. Looks like a yucca but soft leaves. I try to cross a lot of plants and do a lot of odd things. But I have not tried everything as of yet LOL. If I do have two plants flowering that I am interested in chances are they will be crossed. I as one time wanted to cross hostas but so many people were already doing it I figured I should try other things. I am still doing Lotus hybrids and water lilies but most the interest is in hardy tropicals aroids and banana species.
I have not seen this canna if you have a link please send or a photo. I am interested in other forms to breed with all the time. THANKS

yep, already done that. bought some stuff last year from rareplants, got a tecophilea cyanocrocus but didn't have my digi camera then so no photo,
i went to chilterns site and they seem not to be operational at the moment, their new catalogue comes out at end Nov so poss preparing it, they don't have pictures but have many intersting rare seeds as they can get them, they are what I would call 'serious' suppliers, will post the link anyway so when they get going you can have a look http://www.edirectory.co.uk/chilternseeds/pages/index.asp?cid=211 if this doesnt work www.chilternseeds.co.uk typed in should do the trick. they don't put out heir new cat. until they are sure of their stocks, but get new stuff in all year as it comes, might not have that canna this time, didn't last year but had c. warscewiczii, wish I had got that as may not be around next year. failing them having it you will have to coerce me into sending you a bit! No photo, couldn't find one as it doesn't seem to exist but where I mentioned, can only tell you what it said in the catalogue......"probably virtually new to cultivation in these Islands is this magnificent Canna species. Found in the wild along the banks of streams and rivers, it is a stately, substantial, (height 12-15 ft) plant - with sheer bulk explains our supplier. Clump-forming with stout stems, sporting a wealth of large (3' x 1.5') apple green leaves, it bears numerous clusters of small, exotic blooms apricot in colour, flushed pink at the face and with a recurved lower petal. Although cold tolerant and can be grown outdoors in the UK in full sun in the manner of dahlias and lifted in winter for frost free storage, it will perform best and be admired most if grown in your conservatory. In any case, water and feed copiously. HHP"

I have dahlias in the ground, they survive well. I wll have to split this canna and try some in ground when bigger. It only has leaves around 9" tall at moment, the bulbous tubers around 3/4" diam each, it germinated late. Got it indoors now. Sounds very nice. i thought about hostas too, but decided the same as you, too many.

The nursery with the eucomis is http://www.pennardplants.com/photogallery.html?p=4&cat=5&zone=2 they have a lot of varieties, they spelt it wrong, no 'r' at the end I think, this cultivar 'octopus' I haven't found anywhere else. I also have pole-evansii 2 years now, not going anywhere fast, Joy's purple from pennardplants.com, also Peace Candles and comosa. Like the looks of Montana.

Not seen the striped callas, but you do seem to have more breeding going on in the states, I had to get crinum seed from some in Florida and Australia, growing OK but just started this year. Have you seen my pic of the z Pink Mist on plantfiles? canna Black Knight leaves behind.

here's a nice pic of that canna leaves i've played around with

Hi bwilliams

The Chiltern seed catalogue has arrived today, and canna altensteinii is in it, but out of stock on their listing on the site. They may have it in when available, as they do list when they have a promise of seed, and wouldn't put it on if not at all available.

Also have c. warscewiczii, c. flaccida.

If you are interested in peonies, they have some species, but you have to be quick, I looked mid December last year and the rare ones were sold out.

http://www.edirectory.co.uk/chilternseeds/pages/Default.asp

Another really good supplier is www.b-and-t-world-seeds.com

They are possibly the largest, with over 40,000 different seed stocked, also can be expensive but sometimes is the only source, then expense doesn't come into it!

i bought some from them last year, germination results very good, so a little more paid can sometimes be more economical. They will send out seeds not in stock as they come to them fresh, the post rates used to work on a minimum up to 30 euros, then 10%, this may have changed. The last time I looked there was an online basket system if you search for the plant genus in question, also listed in general, allocated to plant types. the system works on small quantities for a packet, up to large quantities, either seeds nos. or weight.

Post overseas for chilterns is £3.50.