Has anyone any experience with monarchs having problems eclosing? We've noticed many problems with the monarchs falling to the ground when it seems they would by design be able to exit the chrysalis and cling in the proper position until the wings are ready for flight.
I thought it might be from being handled/ in a hatching box but noticed the same problem with some free range butterflies that eclosed onto the screen outside. I had also given a plant with a chrysalis on it to a friend for her kids. As we have observed, the wings never came all the way unfurled and it died.
My other idea is that somehow spraying for ticks this spring caused the problem. The chemical involved is a neurotoxin. We noticed at the time that a few caterpillars that left their pots to travel across the porch to pupate ended up seizing. Please note- when we sprayed we had no choice- there were ticks hatching in my bed. Also I sprayed myself because the pro wouldn't allow us to omit the butterfly garden at all. At the time we cut every blossom of the plants to protect them but I'm wondering if there is a residual effect possibly causing a genetic mutation. We just had a BST that came from a nursery hatch successfully.
Does any of this sound reasonable or is this simply normal? I think we're getting roughly 30% success rates- seems low to me.
clumsy monarchs, problems hatching
Any sort of pesticide is extremely detrimental/toxic to any invertebrate. Sorry, but I think your spraying is the cause. Perhaps you should give up trying to rear butterflies until you have a situation where you won't have to spray.
And ticks hatching in your bed? That's definitely a new one for me. What kind of ticks do you have that they're laying eggs in your bed?
I am no longer spraying- it was a one time thing in the spring. Jacksonville was plagued with ticks this spring and it was especially bad on wooded property such as ours. The breeder told us everyone was having problems. The dogs sleep by the bed. Ticks catch on the bedskirt and then crawl up and under the bottom sheet- if the tick lays eggs you then get a colony when they hatch.
I'm with you- I'd never seen anything like it before, even when I lived on a wooded plot in MS. I was not a happy camper. The University of Florida entomologist told us they were regular brown ticks.
What i was really wondering is could spraying months ago be causing these problems now?
Thanks,
Maggie
I don't think you or your advisors know anything about tick biology. In order to lay eggs, female ticks have to be fully engorged with blood. I'm sure you've seen them this way - they can barely move never mind "climb up the bedskirts". In the wild they drop off the host animal into the grass to lay their eggs. It's virtually impossible for them to climb anywhere. Ticks are also NOT "colony" animals. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Whatever "breeder" is giving you this information is completely feeding you old wives' tales galore or is trying to mask his/her own poor hygiene re: their dogs. I think you need better information - either from your own doctor or a veterinarian. And if your dogs have so many ticks that they're crawling around in your bed, I think you need to take better measures checking/treating your dogs.
And please - I don't mean the above in an unkind way at all. But I really have never heard of anyone with a bed so full of ticks that they had to spray for them. Not to mention the other choice items of tick info you were given that are definitely untrue. I'd rather see you well-informed & healthy.
Depends on the residual, most products for tick control have at least a 90 day residual effect. Some pesticides have longer residuals.
Thanks Calalilly, I appreciate the response. I think I'll probably have to check with the UF butterfly people to see if it could be causing some gene mutation or something. I know it can linger, just don't know if it's causing this problem.
Regards,
Maggie
If they have something to hang on and plenty of room to open their wings then they would do just that. They can get sort of stuck in the chrysalis and their wings start to dry while they are inside it. I have had one like this before. I had to open the chrysalis for it because for some reason it couldn't get out. But if they come out quickly, and after a while their wings don't straighten out it's got to be a problem inside of their body that causes them not to be able to unfold them. I've gotta go with the pesticides at that point too.
I don't think anything inside the hatchery would cause it, it has to be something beforehand or they wouldn't eclose at all. If they were being harmed while inside the chrysalis they wouldn't fully form and eclose at all. I know that when they have a virus they either won't even pupate or the chrysalis dies. I've never heard of the end result being a deformed butterfly. I've never heard of gene mutation in butterflies, just viruses and abnormalities in individual ones.
The BST eats a different host plant than your Monarchs also, so it could just be chemicals on the milkweed and not the fennel or whatever you fed the BST.
Ticks...eeekkk!! I'm sure you love the dogs, but that's a major problem.
Hi KKB,
They have been making their chrysalids on the ceiling of the box and occasionally on the underside of a leaf. I would think based on the behavior I've observed, that the side of the box would be better. One got stuck as you described but mostly they eclose on the ceiling and fall to the floor of the box- seemingly they can't hold on to the case and work their way to the the ceiling to dry their wings.I have so many new nectar and larval foods since the spring that I was guessing that it would have to be something left over on the grass/ bushes from the spring. I think I'll try hot-gluing the cases to the side of the screen, perhaps my setup isn't the most effective.
i was hoping when I posted that someone familiar with butterfly hatching might have seen this before and say 'oh yeah, that's such and such".
I do love the dogs but EEK doesn't begin to describe how I felt. Fortunately it resolved with treatment and have had no further problems but it was not an experience I'd care to repeat. Thanks for your gracious and helpful response.
Maggie
Monarchs form their chrysalis hanging down unless all they are left with is something on the side. I've only had a few do this. I have a box that I use and last year over 40 used the top of it. They just crawled next to each other and the next chrysalis. I didn't have any that did it on the side. They do look like they are having a hard time holding on to let their wings dry, but if they are still they usually have no problem. I have had some manage to crawl over to different areas, but usually all stay where they eclose. Is the top of your hatchery made of something they could grab on to if they tried? I still don't know why they would try to do that, since I've never seen that behavior. I'm sorry this happening. It is sad to see them die or be born deformed. Hopefully your next try will be successful!
Here is a picture that shows you how mine all clung to the top.
Hi KKB-
They could cling to the top of the box if they chose- here's a link to photos http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/519580/
They actually don't seem deformed, just clumsy. They fall when they should be able to cling and pump fluid from the thorax to the wings. This is why I thought it might be due to the permethrin which is a neurotoxin.
Currently I have some gulf frittilaries and Zebras so we'll see how they do. Sometimes it seems like a tossup. I've observed whole batches of little GF cats disappear overnight. They weren't even big enough that I had considered taking them into the box. I think you had mentioned lizards get them sometimes. Recently I had eight BSTs disappear- I KNOW something ate them so maybe the box is safer even if not all hatch successfully. I have a batch of fennel I bought with eggs included- they're all gone.
Thanks for your support,
Maggie
OH Maggie, I remember all that! LOL! I've already talked to you and showed you that pic. Sorry. I was scrolling down tho and skimmed one...so these are the cats that emptied their systems before pupating? Never seen Monarchs do that. I'll have to reread everything...