I just got my pond to where I can put plants in it and I have a few questions. From what I can gather through my own reading and the advice of others, most "marginal" or "bog" plants can be placed IN the water but many/most/all (?) should not have their crowns submerged. I guess I am just looking for a list of plants that I can just sink to the bottom of the pond and submerge fully. I am 99.9% sure you can do this with cattails, for example, since I have seen them in lakes. However, they are listed as "marginals" when you read about them.
Specifically, I have a corkscrew rush "unicorn" and pickerel weed fully submerged in those fancy little "pond planters" right now. Crown and all is underwater. In PlantFiles I read where a couple of people have their pickerel weed submerged and it is fine. Can anyone attest to this? Staci- if you are reading this did your friend have this all the way in her pond or just around the edges?
There are also PF entries on the corkscrew rush but the two people who have it in their pond (zanymuse and crimsontavo I think) appear to have the top inch or two of the pot above the water line. But the nursery I bought it from last spring had it in a HUGE container of water and it was all the way to the bottom (crown submerged) along with another type of "rush" plant and some sort of grassy plant. I put mine in a big container of water and it has been there for over a year, fully submerged. It was pretty much dead, but as I peeled back the gunk I saw some fresh green growth so I potted it up and sunk it to the bottom of the pond. I have 2 tindrels sticking up now so does that mean it's ok? Did it just take time to bounce back after winter maybe or am I rotting it?!
Sorry- I am still at the pond plants for dummies stage! I just killed my first two little $4 Petsmart koi b/c I didn't know you had to put water conditioner in the water to get rid of chlorine. Why didn't I know that?! I have had aquariums indoors before so I should know better. Anyway, I got my $ back but still feel bad for being a fish killer. I bought a water testing kit and the water conditioner. The Petsmart girl said to bring a sample back in a week or so and she'd test it for me so I would know for sure my water is ok to put fish in. In any event, I really don't want my plants to go the way of the fishes!
TIA!
Jamie
Some dumb plant questions
Jamie
as a rule I usally say the crown of most water plants will be ok under 2-4 inches of water, some even as much as 6
This message was edited Jul 27, 2005 11:04 PM
I have pickerel and corkscrew rush in my pond...both have the crowns submerged a bit. I was under the impression they could take being submerged up to about 4 inches. Pickerel also does well in a bog with no submersion.
In fact...all of my marginals have the crowns under water.
Thanks guys! My pond is 18 inches at the deepest point and I have both of the before mentioned plants allll the way at the bottom. So the crown and a good deal of the plant stalks themselves are under water.
Anna- great picture! That kind of spikey plant on the far right seems to be positioned similar to my 2 as far as depth and how much of the plant is under water. That makes me feel better!
Charlotte- You are a zone or 2 cooler than I am so I supposed you would be a good person to ask... how do you overwinter your pond plants?
Thanks for your responses!!!!
I just leave the marginals where they are. ...the hardies in the deepest part of the pond which is about 26".
the water hyacinth ..I keep 2 in a pot in a sunny window.
The tropical lilies are a whole nuther story. :)
Thanks! I don't have enough sun for any water lilies so I don't have to worry about that I guess. I suppose I will let mine sit where they are and just hope they survive the winter.
I would think in your zone...you should have absolutely no problem leaving them in the edge of the pond.
Well that pond always has/had water in it. In the past it was just nasty dirty stagnant water. But it doesn't freeze over in the winter. I mean if it gets really really cold for several days a layer of ice will form, but it doesn't freeze solid by any means. So I hope they will be okay. We shall see.... :)
Last winter...I too had a thin layer of ice across the top of the pond...mine plants did okay.
Great! That makes me feel better to know they do have a chance!
Jamie,
Being in the same zone and location, I know your plants will be fine with being 2-3" above the pot edge. But as you know, they cannot by any means dry out with our heat! Some of the tender ones will die back in the winter of course above water, but come spring they will be ready to put out leaves again. I have had a 18" when first starting, and with a pump to circulate the water to keep the surface moving, the pond surface won't freeze in our zone. I have Shubunkin & Koi and have to make changes sometimes in the types of plants they will leave alone, or will rotate plants to another water pond to change it up. I had my hands on a link to a list that named the plants in those categories once. But I looked this morning and couldn't find it.
Sheila
Thanks Sheila! I had ruled koi out since my pond isn't very big- 16 ft long and 9 ft wide (longest and widest points) and about 18 inches at the deepest point. I measured it at 335 gallons when we fill it up. It just looks bigger than that to me for some reason. Maybe b/c it's odd shaped. I have a few other links in this forum with pictures in them. Anyway, the girl at Petsmart assured me those "small koi" would not outgrow the pond. I still just got 2 in case they got really big. But I killed them anyway so I guess it doesn't matter! Oh well- I am trying 2 more this weekend. I let the water conditioner cycle through the filter and all that for a week just to make sure. It says it "instantly" removes the chlorine but I decided to be safe!
Anyway, thanks for the info!
Jamie, I didnt think there was such a thing as "small koi". I would suggest shubunkins...they are colorful and will adapt to a smaller pond.
Instant chlorine removers do work instantly...you should be okay now.
Me either Charlotte! I asked how those were different than the huge koi I have seen and I swear to God she said "well these are small koi and those are large koi. The smaller ones are smaller than the large ones." Uh, duh! And I was the blonde in this conversation... LOL! But the little tag on the tank did say "small koi" and they looked like them, just about 2 inches long or so. The tag said they get 6 to 10 inches. Don't know if that sounds right though. I will check out the shubunkins... it's my understanding they are nicer to your pond plants than koi are anyway. :)
16'x9' and 335 gallons? I imagine there are a lot of really shallow areas in this pond, eh? That's awesome for keeping lots of different marginal and bog plants!!! :thumbsup:
Also, the Shubinkins defintely tend to be a lot easier on plants than koi, and some are actually a great deal more handsome than many a koi. What did teh Japanese do to their koi to get them to be such plant loving/hating beasts that the Chinese evidently did not do to their Shubinkins? lol
Sarassa is another Chinese pond dweller that is a simple red and white fish, really nice fins, and tends to be a slower grower than the Shubunkin. They also share the Shubinkin trait of being a great deal more plant friendly than their Japanese counterparts.
Personally, I love raising plants so much that I've developed "koi guards" to keep those onery little buggers out of the pots. Some PVC tubing, 3-way PVC corner joints, some fibreglass pet door screen, and some grommets and you're good to go!
Texas Garden... I'm curious what method you used to measure the water when you filled the pond. With the dimensions you indicated above, you must really have some strange shapes, really shallow water, or lots of error in your measuring... just curious is all... Tom
Thanks for the fish tips! I think I will go to a "real' aquarium and see if I can't find me some Sarassa! I did see those koi plant protector things in a pond magazine but they were pricey! Sounds like your method works just as well and for a lot less. :)
Ok, first, here is the link to my thread with my most recent pond photos:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/527885/
Within that thread I have provided links to my other threads that sort of chronical the renovation process. That may help you understand the size issue.
The back flat edge up against the house is the longest part and it's 16 feet. As you will see, the sides and front edge are curvy. From the furthest out part of the curve to the back edge is 9 feet. Yes, it is an odd shape!
Ok, the pond tilts back and to the right if you look at it as you face my house. So when I fill it up to the LOWEST edge (as full as I can get it in other words), the water line does not even touch the plant ledge on the front curvy part. Only the portion of the plant shelf at the back corners are under water. As you will see in the picture, I have 2 very non-bog plants (a wondering jew and a coleus) IN the pond on the plant shelf b/c it doesn't have a drop of water on it!
As to the depth, I put a board across the pond and measured from the deepest part in the center up to that board. That was 18-20 inches. BUT, that also assumed the water would go up to the edge, which it does NOT do.
Ok, here is how I did the gallon measuring. I turned my hose up full blast and timed how long it took to fill a 5 gallon bucket at that pressure. Then I wrote down the time (41 seconds I think) and put the hose in the pond. I timed how long it took to fill the pond up as far as I could (to that lowest point) which was about 45 minutes. Using simple algebra I figured the gallons by solving for x- 5gallons/41 seconds = xgallons/2700 seconds (convert minutes to seconds). 2700*5 = 13,500 and divide 13,500/41 to get roughly 330 gallons.
I am not sure on exact numbers but I wrote it down at home- I just used round numbers here but I figured it a bit more precisely at home. Also, my engineering geek husband used his fancy graphing calculator because he just "knew" I did it wrong. But he got the same answer I did!
So, more than ya ever wanted to know?! Ha!
Jamie
LOL... so you used a very similar method to measure the water as I did, only I used a one gallon milk jug. Took 11 seconds to fill the gallon and 43 minutes to fill the pond. From your description it could only have 300 plus gallons. A pond with that dimension and depth should have about 880 gallons. But the depth of your water is not 18 and the slant will take up even more. Using the mathematical formula our pond should hold 218 gallons. It measures 4' X 8" and about 14 inches deep, the pond is kidney shaped. By the time to fill method, the pond holds 180 gallons... not that far from 218, but the shape is very close to regular and the depth is consistent. Well... now folks know MUCH more than they ever wanted to know about measuring the gallonage of their ponds!!!!!.... Tom
Jamie,
I would stay away from the Koi in only 18" water. They will jump to their death... and I can testify they DON'T STAY SMALL! I am with Charlotteda, I have Shubunkins also, and love them. They are fun to watch and love to put on a show.
I have a idea on the pond.....if you burm up the sides that slope too low, making sure to reinforce it with a low retaining wall, then get a 45 mil liner and felt underlay, ...maybe it would help level the water surface and make the pond depth a bit more??... Looks like from your pictures, that the low point would be next to the brick wall?...If so you could burm the two ends with the retaining wall next to the brick then out a bit, and create a planting shelf in the front of the wall .
...Anyone suggestions....think that would work?
Sheila
Sheila,
The low point is at the back corner next to the house. That brick wall is the back wall of my house.
For now I am content with it at the depth it is. After all the work it took me to restore it, I just can't bear the thought of MORE manual labor and $$ going into it. :) I kind of like getting to have "non water plants" in my pond. I think after it's all filled in with plantings you won't be able to see that the plant shelf isn't under water so people will say "how do they have those plants IN a pond?!" Ha. Just kidding. But our neighbors did have some house plants in the middle of their pond and I had no clue how they pulled it off... until I got a pond magazine and saw those floating planters! How tricky! Ha!
Yes Tom- we just taught "how to estimate the gallonage of an odd shaped pond you did not install 101." LOL!
I have 4 shubunkins and went to a fish store and got a bunch of feeder gold fish.....they had some really pretty ones. 3 of the goldfish survived and are now quite large. They were cheap and felt like I saved them. They even eat from my hands.....not them shubunkins tho!!
Now get this. I have a small prefab pond and hubby wouldnt let me overwinter the fish in it even though it is deep enough. He went out and bought a 75 gallon fish tank to overwinter these fish. Since spring I have had a large and empty (except for water) fish tank running in the living room just waiting for Winter so he can put the fish back in.
I sho do love him though!
Too funny Deb! Mine will be in the pond over winter... unless my husband decides to try and "save" them. He accuses me of being the softie when it comes to animals but at least my obession stops at cats and dogs! There was a baby bird in our yard who could fly, but not well. His poor mom was just beside herself. I think he fell out of the nest too early but was just at that stage where he was learning to fly. Anyway, my husband told me I was not allowed to let the dogs out b/c they might hurt him. I said "what about all the cats that come in our yard?" Oh lord. That had him outside every 20 minutes checking on this bird. Then, when I was fishing out my dead koi on Sunday, I found that poor little bird, dead at the bottom of the pond. I think he flew into it and could not get out. It was so sad! :( Then I had to tell my poor husband about it and he was so upset! He said "the poor little bird... and those poor fish you killed..." Hey now! I didn't mean to!
Yes, he drives me nuts but he's a big softie and I love him. :)
Ah yes, Shubinkins. I've really grown to love those little buggers! I have two, and and my experience has not been *entirely* like DEBs. One, "Schloopy," is really bashful, the other one (a male named "Mars") is quite the opposite. Since day one he has been the "social director" of the pond. Both previous and current ponds. Any new fish that get added are immediately "greeted" by this big guy. From the minute I float the bag to equalize temperature, there he is checking to see what's new. Later, after adding water to the bag and finally emptying it and the fish intop the pond, there's Mars still. From that point on he very gingerly, almost politely, follows the newcomers around, almost like a puppy checking out another puppy. Well, not quite as playful, of course,
Mars will allow me to "pet" him and has even allowed me to lift half of his body out of the water. But only when I am in the pond with the rest of the gang. He, like everyone else in there, is a bit leary of me when merely at the pond's edge.
I don't LOOK like a racoon, do I? lol
I cannot say enough good things about Shubunkins! Why I own Koi is a mystery even to me sometimes (only sometimes ... I actually do love my koi something bad).
Oh goodness! If we have a fish with personality I think that will be baaaad. My husband will flip out if it dies!
Hi, I'm the DW. I'm learning as I go on the subject of ponds, but I've read that some plants should not be submerged during a freeze, in particular Louisiana iris. We don't get hard freezes, but it usually freezes frequently at night and thaws by 9 or 10 am. So I think I'll put my La Iris in the greenhouse just to be safe.
TexasG,
You have done a wonderful job with you pond and I would certainly like to see photos again when your plants and fish get settled in.
While I was reading, a curiosity came across my mind. In a regular "people swimming in it cement pond, a/k/a swimming pool" if you do not add chlorine to the water every couple days, it will turn green. My understanding of this is because the chlorine dissipates. So, why does it take a water conditioner and a whole week to get rid of the chlorine? Just a curiosity.
About your DH and those fish. I stocked my pond with 1" feeder goldfish 3 months ago. They now are about 2 1/2" and tame as can be. When I go out to the pond to feed them, I call out "Here fishy, fishy, fishy!" When I get there they are gathered and waiting for their meal. I can put my hand in the water and they will eat from my fingers. Your DH being a softy will be attached to yours in no time. But this is a good thing :^))))
Molly
Molly-
That water conditioner is supposed to work instantly, per the bottle. I don't know why she told me to wait a week. Seemed odd to me too. Just like I thought the PH would be the major thing to test for now and not nitrates/nitrites since, as I understand it, those elevated levels result from excessive fish waste not being filtered well. Since I have no fish, I should not have those issues, right?
In any event, I waited. I took my water sample in yesterday and everything looked fine. So I took home my 10 comets and 2 shubunkins. One comet died before I even let them out of the bag. I think it was too many in one bag and it just got beaten to death. :( But the other 11 are still doing fine as of this morning. At 26 cents, I don't think I will take my comet back for a refund. LOL!
TexasG,
Yep, I was just curious. Your fishies are gonna love your pond.
More pictures when things progress please?
Thanks,
Molly
Yes......more pics please!!! I live vicariously thru you texas! LOL
are you kidding...LOL...with a 26 cent refund you could buy....well...not much..maybe another comet :)
Well 3 total have died so we are up to 78 cents!!!! But 3 weren't looking so hot when I let them out of the bag so I was sort of expecting it. But Charlotte- I don't know that with gas prices the way they are, it's even worth the drive back to Petsmart to get 78 cents worth of fish. Ha!
I will post more pics later. But Deb, you have a pond too so why do you have to live vicariously through me??? :)
TexasG,
Sure, don't waste the gas going back to the fish store. Thing is, when they sell (comets or whatever) as feeder fish, and you did pay a feeder fish price, the store generally doesn't guarantee the life of the fish. It's when you buy the larger ones and pay 2 bucks for them, that they guarantee the fish.
I used to work at a pet store and any live animals that were being sold for food was cheaper and no guarantees were given on the lives.
Anyways, I really did know you weren't going back to the store. Now you just have to control the ammonia levels to keep the rest of them alive. Once you get past that, it should be a breeze.
Molly
:^)))))
TX
It is cuz I gots a teeny tiny pond and yours is so much bigger and you can do so much more to it than I can do with mine.
Plus--I love to watch a pond develop. I think that is the best part.
Next year I will probably expand mine.....DH will love me soooo much hahahahahaha