Prairie Trillium, Red Trillium, Bloody Butcher, Brown Bess, Wake-Robin (Trillium

Prairie Trillium, Red Trillium, Bloody Butcher, Brown Bess, Wake-Robin
Trillium recurvatum

Trillium recurvatum

Good morning!
I found this interesting, since it closely resembles a trillium I have here which I classify as T. sessile. So I was hoping for a good closeup to find out the difference. One of my books says they are differentiated in this manner:
T. recurvatum has downward pointing sepals on the old flowers, while T. sessile has sepals and petals erect.
Mine has the calyxes pointing down now, so I guess it is T. recurvatum!
Thanks for posting this picture and making me think about it. My DH has the camera for the week, so I can't send a picture right now.

I have another trillium with green flowers...I wanted to classify it as T. viride, but I did not feel that the leaves were "broadly heart-shaped" and my Missouri wildflowers book (Edgar Dennison) stated that T. sessile can have green flowers, so I posted it as T. sessile. Here is a link to the original picture, and then below it is a second one that now makes me think it might be T. viride after all. Since you have that wonderful book on trilliums, can you advise me whether these pictures should be moved?
I would appreciate it. Here is the link:
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/40127/
Thanks!

In the images that I have submitted is a close up of Trillium recurvatum. Here are a few more links to images of Trillium recurvatum-
http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/cwe/illinois_plants/ThePlants/TGenera/TriRec/TriRec.jpg
http://www.edbergphoto.com/images/trillium_02560A.jpg
http://www.joshspot.com/Vacation-Scotts%20Gulf,%20April-03/Img2003-04-18%20160117.JPG
http://www.life.uiuc.edu/plantbio/digitalflowers/picts/Liliaceae/19-Trillium%20recurvatum.jpg
http://www.state.in.us/dnr/naturepr/npdirectory/preserves/graphics/trillium_recurvatum.jpg


Here are a few images of Trillium sessile-
http://ispb.univ-lyon1.fr/cours/botanique/photos_monocoty/Trillium%20sessile.jpg
http://www.missouriplants.com/Redopp/Trillium_sessile_flower.jpg
http://biology.smsu.edu/Herbarium/Plants%20of%20the%20Interior%20Highlands/Flowers/Trillium%20sessile%20-%201.jpg
http://biology.smsu.edu/Herbarium/Plants%20of%20the%20Interior%20Highlands/Flowers/Trillium%20sessile%20-%203.jpg
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DTrillium%2Bsessile%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fl%3D0%26qp_p%3Dtrillium%2Bsessile%26imgsz%3Dall%26fr%3DFP-tab-img-t%26b%3D41&h=217&w=264&imgcurl=www.bridgewater.edu%2F%7Elhill%2Fimages%2Fsessile2a1.jpg&imgurl=www.bridgewater.edu%2F%7Elhill%2Fimages%2Fsessile2a1.jpg&size=9.2kB&name=sessile2a1.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bridgewater.edu%2F%7Elhill%2Fsessile.htm&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bridgewater.edu%2F%7Elhill%2Fsessile.htm&p=Trillium+sessile&type=jpeg&no=52&tt=178&ei=UTF-8

And a leaf of T. sessile-
http://www.missouriplants.com/Redopp/Trillium_sessile_leaf.jpg

You be the judge as to which one you have however for what it's worth, I found many sessile that were labeled as recurvatum and vice versa when viewing a bunch of images for you. The book on Trillium did not have enough images to be able to use it as a tool to narrow it down.

Yes, this seems very confusing. It appears that they look alike at first, then T. recurvatum points it's sepals down, while T. sessile has them at a flat plane to the leaves. That is what I am going to use, anyway.
Thank goodness I don't have to know!
One of mine (no photo posted) looks like the jpshpot link you sent.

Now to find pics of Trillium viride...
http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/Images/Freeman/viride.jpg
this one (above) looks very similar to mine

http://www.bridgewater.edu/~lhill/images/viride2b.jpg
This one is no where close!

This one is close, but the picture is small:
http://www.horticopia.com/hortpix/pix/U6KB62.jpg

A lot of the images had broken links. Several were displaying glowing yellow blooms, and mine certainly is not that color.
Don't fret over it. I can enjoy the plant without knowing what species it is!

The first image you posted looks as if you have a good flower match there. One problem is that it could be a mislabeled T. sessile.

The second photo looks like Trillium luteum. Your leaves sort of match this specimen.

The third photo I just can't see well enough but that image appears to have very rippled leaves so I'd probably toss that out as a match. You could have a T. viride that is deviating from type but people are yanking their photos on that species so what exactly is type for viride?

Uh oh! You have a wonderful Trillium speciesunknownucum. I have quite a few of those speciesunknownucums myself.

Speaking of speciesunknownucums, as soon as I can dig something out, I am going to give you something to help me with. It's an orchid. I have a heritage biologist saying its one species and a botanist saying its another species. And a girlfriend who originally disagreed with the first ID who may have hit it on the head originally and I thought nooooooooo, the heritage biologist has to be correct. Time to go digging for the photos but I am leaning more and more to me having misidentified that plant by aligning myself with the first person who identified it yet it all gets so confusing when two professionals have valid points as to why each thinks the plant is what they think it is. Oh goodie goodie goodie, another possible plant with no clear cut species!

Sure, I have a Missouri Orchids book that might help.
Do you have any Putty Root Orchids there?
Here is a link: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/56479/index.html
I have a lot of these down in the woods by the creek, and unfortunately the power lines go right over them. The utility company cut the area about 10 years ago and will probably do it again soon...they asked if they could spray herbicides and I said "NO!!!! there is a creek there, stupid!" or something to that effect.
If you want some of these, let me know. They are pretty easy to move.
However, they are blooming now and then will go dormant until late fall. I need to tag some if you want any, so I know where they are.

Ahhhh, the Adam & Eve orchid. Those are indigenous to my area however I have never seen one. Very nice plant and yeeeeeeees, please do tag a few for me for this fall. How exciting!

I don't know what to say about government employees with spray packs loaded with chemicals. Seems to me they are out there doin thayre thang regardless of the winds. You might want to put a great big neon flashing sign in the area that says "DO NOT SPRAY CHEMICALS IN THIS AREA" with an arrow pointing to the creek. Maybe you could find a little international sign denoting water just in case they don't speak or read English. It's been about 10 years so you might seriously want to recap the last visit and send the utility company a little love letter registered mail voicing your concerns regarding spraying in that area as they will most assuredly be back and you could be at work the next time they come. You would think these people would have a healthy respect for drift but when they're on the clock, most of them don't seem to care. Classic case of complacency.

As far as the plant that I need help on, I forgot I have a photo of it here under Epipactis
helleborine.

My girlfriend believes my plant to be the Green Bracted Orchid, a native to our area that also goes by the common name of Frog Orchid (Coeloglossum viride). Synonymous with Habenaria viridis. Or maybe the Long Bracted Orchid (Habenaria viridis var. bracteata)? I am sort of leaning in this direction now also.
http://www.amazilia.net/images/Plants/Orchids/Coeloglossum_viride.htm
http://montana.plant-life.org/species/coelo_viri.htm http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/wildflowers/images/common%20names/long_bracted_orchid.jpg
http://www.fh-friedberg.de/allgemein/ahohompg/jpgspecj/virpic3.jpg

I was told these two plants looked very similar. They indicated one of the ways to tell the difference was to look for 2-3 teeth at the tip of the flower. Sure enough, I found a site that mentioned this-

The herbarium records were checked at the research station about 20 miles west of me and that plant is in fact in the records and the black and white photos they have match mine. Additionally, Wisconsin has this plant also and I am 1 mile from the IL/WI border.
http://em.ca/garden/nat_coeloglossum_viride.html

Allegedly, this plant also looks a little bit like Platanthera hyperborea. I didn't think they looked at all alike.
http://em.ca/garden/nat_platanthera_hyperborea.html

I also found this-
Type species = ! = Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum albidum Hartmann 1820 - See Pseudorchis albida (Linne) A. & D. Löve 1969

~Coeloglossum bracteatum (Willd.) Parl. 1850 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum bracteatum (Willd.) Schltr. 1920 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum densiflorum C. Hartm. ex Willk. & B. Lange 1870 - See Neotinea maculata (Desfontaines) Stearn 1975

~Coeloglossum erdingeri A. Kern. 1864 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum islandicum (Lindl.) Kom. 1927 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum vaillantii Schur 1866 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

!Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820 LATE to
~Coeloglossum viride subsp. bracteatum (Muehl.) Soo - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum viride subsp. bracteatum (Willd.) Hult - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum viride var. bracteatum (Willd.) Rchb. f. 1867 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum viride var. islandicum (Lindl.) Schulze 1898 - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

~Coeloglossum viride var. virescens (Muhl. Ex Willd.) Luer - See Coeloglossum viride [L.]Hartm. 1820

Please take a look at the plant that was found on my property and please share with me if you think it is the European species or the NA species. I was holding off contacting Terry to move the photo until it flowered again this year but I can't remember where I found them. I suppose I'll stumble upon them sooner or later.

Seeing the open blooms in a wonderful closeup would go a long ways on this one, Lauren! If maroonish, I would guess it is the Helleborine, but if greenish-yellow it is probably a native orchid. Then we would have to see about that 2-3 toothed lip part. Hopefully, you did not eradicate all of them, and you will stumble on them soon, camera in hand at just the right moment!
My orchid book says that Habenaria is now Platanthera, but the book came out in 1981 (revised 1987) so it is probable that some of them are now considered as Coeloglossum. The helleborine has been spotted in Missouri and the book mentioned that it was particularly invasive in the Chicago area. Unfortunately, the Green-bracted orchid is not listed for our state. Sorry I could not be of more help. Might get to look at this some more later on (family reunion tomorrow).
Edited to add a link to your picture:
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/60939/


This message was edited May 20, 2005 10:09 PM

Rats, the verdict is still out! And isn't it the worst when a perfectly good book is out of date almost the minute the press shuts down. All this re-classification gets me dizzy.

"Seeing the open blooms in a wonderful closeup would go a long ways on this one" Yup, sure would. Here's hoping I can find them. My girlfriend might know where they were/are.

Here's the website where the differences between Platanthera hyperborea and Coeloglossum viride were discussed-
http://em.ca/garden/nat_platanthera_hyperborea.html

Look at what I found and its on my property. It doesn't match any other Trillium I have growing here or have seen. Look at those leaves and the direction they are growing. No case of the droops here.

Could this stand alone clump possibly be...

Here's another photo-

The height is consistent with what is published for T. viride.

And one last little oddity I found on the plant-

That last one is a doozy! That must be a lucky trillium, like a four-leaved clover! It seems to have 5 leaf divisions and 5 petals.
They appear to be T. recurvatum, though, because the sepals are pointing downward. T. viride sepals do not, from what info I have garnered. See this picture again: http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/Images/Freeman/viride.jpg
Evidently there is a great deal of variation in the Trillium community.

I sure like that 5 pointed one, though. Pentillium recurvatum, I think, LOL.

Oh man, I spent so much time typing and I just wiped out what I was typing. I hate that when that happens.

I was skipping all over the board. So much so that I lost a lot of really great links that I wanted to post for you.

The height of the Trillium I photographed is a staggering 22"-24". All joking aside, that is inconsistent with both Trillium recurvatum as well as T. viride. I should walk out there and stick a yard stick by them. You should see the height of this clump.

I did find what I believe to be a good photo of T. viride-
http://www.mailorderplants4me.com/perennials_usa/trillium_viride.html

While I was out and about surfing the net... I found what looks to be a bargain on T. sessile-
http://www.easternplant.com/epsdetail.asp?ID=100

I think I want to buy some T. viride.

Seriously, I think I have a hybrid, morph, or sport of. S. recurvatm. I just haven't seen upturned leaves like that before. I can understand a plant stretching for the sun but those

That link to T. viride: http://www.mailorderplants4me.com/perennials_usa/trillium_viride.html
shows one that looks just like mine:
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/40562/

As for the big ones you found, I 've never been fortunate enough to see a trillium that got 2 feet tall. Maybe your local extension service or conservation department can tell you if that occasionally happens. Maybe the soil was just particularly well suited to it's requirements.
In my own experience, I have some native Solomon's seal (usually 18 inches or so) that is close to 5 feet tall in certain areas, and that huge green dragon that is ridiculously large compared to the others.
Wish I had the camera (in Colorado with DH).

I believe you on the Solomon's Seal. Polygonatum biflorum var commutatum is Giant Solomon's Seal and that particular species can reach heights of 6' I believe. Most of it is hanging out around 4'. Pretty wild, huh. I have about 12 plants of that however they are only 2 year old plants. I want mine to get to be at least 4' tall.
http://www.canningperennials.com/acatalog/Polygonatum_commutatum_________________________New.html

Our extension office is not too hot. They don't do trees or shrubs at all and they collectively believe that a weed is nothing more than a plant in the wrong spot. For whatever reason, the volunteers there are into vegetable (lots of tomatoes), lawns (they've got about a gazillion ways to kill grubs), and pretty annuals in flats. Very nice people but for some reason they don't seem to be as helpful as other extension offices. They do offer nice classes on drying flowers. I might forward a photo over to the Chicago Botanic and see if anyone over there has any idea. Let's see what I can come up with.