Just to let you good folks know that the hydrogen peroxide is working real well with the string and hair algae I had a problem with. I also eventually managed to locate a bottle of AlgaeFix (but not at any of the local Walmarts!) I will keep that for a later time.
Anyway, goldfish mating like mad today as I worked away building a new waterfall. Clearly they had been "at it" a few weeks back, too, as while working I noted 3 or 4 small fry about 1/4" long in a secluded part of the pond.
Thanks for all your help. :-)
String Algae and peroxide
How much did you put in your pond? I use hydrogen peroxide for everything. Someone told me that is how barley works by getting converted to H2O2. It was the guy that works at the water gardening supply store.
shadowgirl, one pint per 1000 gallons is a basic rule of thumb. I've put double that in my pond and it doesn't hurt the fish or plants. It would take a lot more than that to do any harm to your pond life.
I use a 500 gal filter tank: I pump water from the pond into the 'top' tank which contains a load of pan scourer type pads, and then it falls, through gravity, back into the pond via some rocks I call a water fall ;-) It's what is called a Skippy's filter.
I put the peroxide in there and turn off the pump for a day, then turn it back on to allow it to enter the main pond. The pond is about 2,400 gals and I placed one pint in the 'top' tank over a 3 - 4 day period.
What happened was that the weed in the top tank died off real quick and when I released the water into the pond it started to kill the pond weed immediately and continued over about two weeks. This means raking and, later just netting the weed which dies and floats to the top.
Regarding how much; Branka's suggestion seems fine and clearly knows much more than me but, having nearly poisoned my fish one time, I was just being cautious and didn't add too much. It seems that you can always add a little then, later, add some more.
BTW, How long have you guys been ponding?
Thanks ya'll! I have been ponding for about 10 years. My present pond is the largest pond so far about 16,000 gallons. Using commercial products is not economically feasible for me. What I have been using is 45.00 for a half gallon and I used that in three weeks and even though it was added when the water was chrystal clear, the water is starting to green up a little. You said string and hair algae does that mean it won't do anything about pea soup water? Are ya'll using 3%, 10%, or 30% H2O2? Sorry for all the questions and thanks so much for your replies.
Shadowgirl: 3 percent is usually recomended for pond use.
Hmmm..powerful stuff and easy to get. There are 8 pints to a gallon, right? Thanks for the help.
The concept that barley straw produces hydrogen peroxide - supposedly from sunlight hitting lignins released from the straw - appears to be mostly an 'urban legend'. I have yet to find a good, scientific study where anyone has actually measured hydrogen peroxide resulting from barley straw. This website gives a good discussion of barley straw from a reliable source and includes references where good quality studies have been conducted.
http://www.btny.purdue.edu/Pubs/APM/APM-1-W.pdf
Shadowgirl - you can use the commercial-grade hydrogen peroxide but you just have to cut the amount down proportionately. For example, if you need 16 pints for your pond (using the typical 3% from your grocery store) then you'd use 4 pints of 12% or approximately 4 3/4 pints of 10%. But be sure to figure out the relative cost too! Sixteen pints at our local grocery store would run about $16. I'd have to buy at least 1 gallon of 12% (minimum quantity they'd sell me) for about $23 at our local pool/spa shop which is fine if I think I'd need the rest of it soon but a waste if not.
Thanks DR, I can easily use a gallon since I am an H2O2 fanatic. It works great as a stain remover on laundry and carpeting as well as neutralizing pet orders. In a spray bottle I use 2 parts peroxide to 1 part lemon juice as acleaner for my kitchen and bathrooms. Also in the garden it kills spider mites very well and if you have a plant that is in danger of rootrot from being waterlogged it can revive it. Do you have Dollar Stores up there? You can usually find it for 2 pints for a dollar in those places.
Shadowgirl, how do you dilute for spider mites, rootrot?
JenG
For spidermites I use 3% in a spray bottle, spray the leaves until the H2O2 runs off, and then let sit for about 15 minutes. The mites foam up and die. Using plain water in spray bottle or you could use a water hose I rinse all the H2O2 off. If the mites are bad I remove the leaves that look the worst. Sometimes you will get some yellowing of the leaves but new growth is fine. Only in cool weather or early in the morning. I' ve never used it in the hot sun but do not think it would be good.
The link below answers your other question. Don't use on young plants with tender roots especailly seedlings.
http://www.quickgrow.com/gardening_articles/hydrogen_peroxide_horticulture.html
Just find this thread, and am reading it with great interest. I have two ponds only one has the hair algae problem usually I just take it conpleatly down and start over it;s on 200 gallons drop in pond. So what you are saying is that plain old cheap hydrogen Perioxide will fix this problem and will not harm the fish. I know I sound stupid but I didn't know this would work and believe me I am tired of all the work this little pond has caused me.
My other pond 1600 gallons doesn't get it just green pea soup water and I let nature takes its course on it.
JoAnn
JoAnn, yes the hydrogen peroxide will attack the 'string' algae. Be sure to remove as much as possible to avoid oxygen depletion problems as the algae dies off although that's ususally not much of a problem this time of year. I've seen people use doses as high as 1 pint per 100 gallons although I tend to go with a dose in the 1-2 pints per 1000 gallons myself and then repeat in about 3-5 days if necessary.
Oh DRH2, I can't wait to try this and make my life easier again. I was just looking at it yesterday with that dreaded look of hate that appears this time of year LOL. Thanks so much.
Got any other good ideas? like how to get the sludge out of the bottom of the large pond I have a leaf cleaner that sucks up all the leafs that somehow get in it but all it does is push the sludge around and make the pond yucky. trying not to have to drain it and clean completely. I was trying to figure out how to create something with a wet vac, attaching some kind of out take hose to it so it would drain it out without having to shut off the wet vac as it only holds so much water LOL. trying to be cheap and creative at the same time I don't think those two go together do you?
JoAnn
Oh DRH2, I can't wait to try this and make my life easier again. I was just looking at it yesterday with that dreaded look of hate that appears this time of year LOL. Thanks so much.
Got any other good ideas? like how to get the sludge out of the bottom of the large pond I have a leaf cleaner that sucks up all the leafs that somehow get in it but all it does is push the sludge around and make the pond yucky. trying not to have to drain it and clean completely. I was trying to figure out how to create something with a wet vac, attaching some kind of out take hose to it so it would drain it out without having to shut off the wet vac as it only holds so much water LOL. trying to be cheap and creative at the same time I don't think those two go together do you?
JoAnn
Oh DRH2, I can't wait to try this and make my life easier again. I was just looking at it yesterday with that dreaded look of hate that appears this time of year LOL. Thanks so much.
Got any other good ideas? like how to get the sludge out of the bottom of the large pond I have a leaf cleaner that sucks up all the leafs that somehow get in it but all it does is push the sludge around and make the pond yucky. trying not to have to drain it and clean completely. I was trying to figure out how to create something with a wet vac, attaching some kind of out take hose to it so it would drain it out without having to shut off the wet vac as it only holds so much water LOL. trying to be cheap and creative at the same time I don't think those two go together do you?
JoAnn
Talking of the sludge at the bottom (where else :-) I just leave mine in there. I'm afraid I am not one of those clean pond people, I just let it accumulate and call it a natural pond.
When one of the basket plants gets too big for its boots, I just rip the basket off and put the plant back in as it is. It either lives or dies and I haven't had one die yet. The end result is a natural-looking pond that tends to keep itself balanced. The root systems flourish and they make use of the sludge and it never seems to be a problem.
Since putting in the 'top tank' filter (about 18 months ago) the only probelm I have had was the string algae which, thanks to our fellow ponders here, I have learnt to cope with.
You could call all this laziness; I call it living with nature ;-)
i have thought of getting rid of the pots and turning the plants loose in the bottom. but i have heard nightmares about lotus that roots can grow to 30 ft, or more. Can they pentrate a rubber liner and can all plants live with KOI i have heard they will eat the roots. Another stupid question HUH LOL
JoAnn
I have heard the same! And I know Koi are pretty good "farmers". they love to eat roots and baby leaves. But if the lotus is growing like mad, perhaps the koi will keep it in check?
JenG
I don't have Koi, just humble goldfish, but I have also heard that Koi can graze real good.
I'm not sure about roots puncturing the liner either. With the soil I have at two feet down, which is clay, I could easily get a puncture and, apart from an intial loss, not really notice it, especially with auto-fill.
Sorry, not a lot of help to you here - but I'm sure you will hear me scream if I do get a leak!
Steve
Well i am going to try turning the plants loose and see what happens Maybe the Koi will keep the Lotus in check, if not then I willhave fish and no plants LOL, Did the H2O2 yesterday in the small pond, I was amazed ho quick the string algae starting pulling loose from the sides of the pond, I skimmed the top of the pond 4 times sometimes miracles come in small bottles LOL.
JoAnn
This is all very interesting and useful. I will definitely try the hydrogen peroxide for mites. I've used everything without much luck.
I only have a 500 gal. stock tank (dug into the ground), but after 2 years of fighting algae found that I was overfeeding the goldfish. Now I don't feed them at all in the fall and winter and only once a week in the summer. They eat any algae! Now I don't have any string algae. I have a small waterfall from rocks and algae gathers on them. I can wash off with the hose and the fish fight for the pieces. This has made such a difference in the time spent cleaning filters and raking out algae. Jenny
Jenny, rule of thumb on feeding quit feeding towards the end of October, to let them get ready to go dorment and then start feeding in March when they come up to top searching for food. I only feed mine twice a week and you are right most of the time they eat algae.
Update on string algae, put in H2O2 on friday today the water is so clear you can see bottom, still some string gripping to the sides and on some rocks, will retreat next Friday. DRH2 you are an angel I had to smile and say thanks as I was looking at the pond yesterday. What a lifesaver overworked gardener LOL.
Thinkdirt, I wish I had a simple answer for your sludge issue. Many ponds will use a bottom drain that will take it to a settling basin (a smaller unit - some are designed around a 'vortex' spinout arrangment). However, if you're running a smallish pond - say under 500 gallons - then that sort of arrangement is overkill/overpriced in my mind. On the other hand if you were setting up a system with show-quality Koi and greater than say several thousand gallons then it is probably worth it. You've probably already read the threads regarding use of wet vacs. Incidently, you can easily control the suction on your wet vac while you're using it in the pond. by installing a small, air-bleed valve (also called an air relief valve) up near the top of the handle where you hold it. You can pick one up at your local swimming pool store for just a few bucks. When it's open it will let air into the suction hose which then reduces the amount of water being sucked into the wet vac. This way you can control the rate of water being pulled in so you don't suck up stones or other things. Close it to get maximum suction. All it takes to install it is to drill a hole through a thick part of the plastic and screw in the valve - you can get by without having to thread the plastic because it's fairly soft. Or you can just drill a hole and cover up part of it with duct tape (that universal cure-all!!).
If you ever find a simple, easy, cost-effective (otherwise known as "cheap"!) method for removing sludge in just a few minutes patent it quick! You'll be a millionaire I'd think!
DRH2 first what is your real name? LOL thanks for the info, i am going to print it out for future reference. Have you seen in the Fosters Smith Catalog the vacumn for the bottom of ponds over $300 but wondering if it works .
I have a liner in this 1200 gallon pond and it has been over 4 years since this has been cleaned out really bad, I am getting older and can't quite handle it any more so looking for an easier way to maintain it.
JoAnn
This might sound kinda dumb but here goes. With the peroxide application, does the string algae disappear or just get held back some? All the plants have long green fuzzy "whiskers" and I would prefer they get a shave!!! Maybe I should increase the dosage. 3 oz in 180 gallon pond. Any ideas???
hi silverfluter, all I know thanks to David, i put 16 oz's in a 160 gallon pond the first dose and you could see the string algae disappear waited a week and did another 8 oz's and the pond is clear as a clear can get it no water changes or anything, I kept my filter running , i can tell you that I was impressed thanks to David, I think I overdosed but I lost no fish LOl.
JoAnn
JoAnn
Thanks, I have about the same size pond and have been using 3 oz. The water is clear, there is just the string algae all over everything very thick. Can't wait to see what happens... Thanks... Tom
One of the nice things about hydrogen peroxide is that it's pretty hard to overdose. I've seen people talk about using doses at the level of 1 pint per 100 gallons!!! --- with no apparent effects on fish or plants. Of course maybe the fish are now all blonds!!! LOL!
Tom, as to what happens when you add hydrogen peroxide... it actually kills the algae not just suppresses further growth. The exact mechanism of how it does this is somewhat open to debate. Does it disrupt the cell walls? Does it go inside the cells? etc. But the bottom line is that it does work for string algae but not for the "suspended" algae. One thing you may notice is that after you've applied it about 3 to 5 days later you have a bit more suspended algae and the water may look a bit turbid. That's because of the 'stuff' (nutrients) released from the dead algae are being used by the “suspended” guys as well as the fact that string algae is actually quite effective in helping to keep the water clear.
Glad to hear that it’s working for you. Just be sure to get as much of the stuff out of the pond before you apply it. That way it won’t consume too much oxygen as it decays. In fact, when your water gets warmer (I think I saw the last iceberg sail out today in our pond) you might want to keep a simple air pump and aeration stone on hand to add supplemental aeration to keep the dissolved oxygen levels up. Shouldn’t be too much of a problem this early in the season and assuming you physically removed as much as you could before dosing with peroxide.
DRH2
It does seem to be working finally... I dumped in the whole pint this morning. This is a very young pond. About a month since I filled it and added the filter. We were using it as a simple bog garden before that. Just plants and fish. I used some of the same water when we recently filled it and added the filter. Wanted to have some bio things going on. Its only about 180 gallons and we are running a 500 GPH pump on it. That may be the reason we have had very few problems with cloudy water.It coulded about a week after filling and then cleared up within 3 days... crystal clear ever since. We do get floating masses of some kind of algae in the heat of the day, I skim them out with a net when I can.
The one thing that concerns me is the bubbles forming where the water flows down into the pond. I have heard that is a sign of high organic matter. We have had 3 goldfish die in the past week also. When the first one died the PH was 8.2. I brought the PH down to 7 after that. Several days later and another dead fish. I'm thinking maybe the pond is just not stabilized for them yet?? Who knows... any ideas? Tom
Tom, what you describe is what I'd call classic "young pond" syndrome! :-) First of all, I wouldn't worry about the pH - goldfish and Koi will be quite happy at pH 8.3 and even as high as 9. What they don't like is a fluctuating pH. I routinely add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate - the stuff in the yellow box) to my pond whenever the alkalinity (also called 'carbonate hardness' although it has NOTHING to do with hardness!) gets down around 80 mg/L. If you add baking soda the pH will be locked in at 8.3. Most of the traditional plants that I'm aware of that people use in and around their ponds thrive quite nicely at this pH. If you have the pH at 7 - while ideal from many standpoints - it becomes difficult to maintain adequate buffering in your water. The more algae you have in the water the more pH swings you will see between daytime and night (high pH by mid afternoon, sometimes as high as 9.3 or so; low pH by early morning as low as 7.5 or lower if there is inadequate buffering). The bubbles/foam that we often see in our ponds is a sign of dissolved organic matter. The source?? You say you have gold fish. Have you noticed them playing "chase" alot??? Think of it this way...you've got some rather randy teenagers loose in your pond without supervision! LOL! Not much you can do about that end of it but it's one of the reasons I have a bit more extra biofilter capacity to help breakdown the organics. As to the fish dying...you may very well have an outbreak of aeromonas bacteria or related microorganisms. Do you notice any open sores anywhere on the bodies of the dead fish? Or are their scales spreadout so that they look somewhat like pinecones? There are a number of diseases that can get going in a new pond as the ecology gets stabilized. You can look up treatment for them at:
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/sitemap.html which tends to push its own medications. You can also go to
http://koivet.com/
As a general treatment to try to get many of the disease-causing microorganisms under control take a look at:
http://www.pondpetsusa.com/water_treatments/koiZyme.html
Understand that I actually don't like to just throw things into the pond. Hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and KoiZyme are the exceptions to this in my book.
You are making me shudder to think of those chemistry formulas for determining the PH range of buffers... making my head spin as much back in them days and now.... Forget the formulas, I unserstand the philosophy perfectly, but about how much Baking Soda should I put in a 180 gallon tank?
Yes... I think we had some VERY "randy" fish for a while. I think they wore themselves out... the chasers were the first to perish. They didn't show any symptoms as you described. They looked very healthy even in death. I shook them just to be sure they were in fact dead.
I guess we will wait a while before adding any more fish. There are 2 goldfish remaining and a few minnows. Will see how they do. Thanks for the info.. Tom
Tom, I promise --- I won't put any formulas here! :-)) As to how much to add? That's an easy one. Bicarb is another of those 'forgiving' things you can add. It would be very difficult to overdose. You could add as little as a teaspoon (probably wouldn't do too much) or as much as two pounds! A bit more realistic dose, for your pond, would be on the order of 3-5 tablespoons. However, before you add anything you might want to get a good chemistry kit so you can measure things such as ammonia and nitrite as well as alkalinity. Because one of the possibilities is that with your pond being relatively new that your biofilter hasn’t established sufficient nitrification capacity to deal with the amount of ammonia excreted by the fish. This is why it’s important to measure it. You’d like to see no ammonia, no nitrites (not to be confused with nitrates). One of the problems with ammonia is that it can become more toxic to fish the higher the pH. So all of this ‘stuff’ is linked together. You don’t even have to look at a single formula!!! Just count drops as you add the chemicals/indicators to your test sample. I personally prefer the ‘wet chemical’ type tests - the ones that you add drops rather than use the dip sticks. I think the wet-types are more accurate and have a better shelf life. There are a number of combined kits out there; take a look at the Tetra Laborette Test kits (see link below as an example - do search for lowest price):
http://www.watergardengems.com/water_quality/test_kits.html
I like the Aquarium Pharmaceutical kits for even better accuracy and shelf-life (see link below as an example):
http://www.azponds.com/test_kits.htm
So now back to your bicarb issue. If your ammonia is low and your pH is around 8 or so just dump the stuff in until you’ve got the alkalinity where you want it (typically 80-150 mg/L). But if your pH is low, say around 7 or so, add - in your case - about a teaspoon or so, let it circulate in the pond for about 15 to 30 minutes then check your pH. Keep adding small amounts like this until your pH is sitting around 8ish. Then dump in whatever you need to adjust the alkalinity since at that point further addition will not change the pH but only the buffering capacity of the water.
See? No formulas as promised!!! :-))
Thanks... you had me worried there for a moment on the formulas!!!(actually I rather enjoyed chemistry, it was just something about 6.23 times 10 to the minus 23rd power that I couldn't seem to grasp when multiplying and dividing by similar numbers)
We have a test kit (liquid type) we been using on the aquarium and I did the amonia, PH and nitrite test. No amonia or nitrites detected. I just ran another PH test, at 9 pm it reads 8.2.The alkalinity measured out to 125.3 mg/L.
General hardness tests out at 393 mg/L which the test kit says is ok for goldfish and brackish water fish... but it is at the high end. I got the same results on our tap water, so apparently the pond hasn't increased any due to evaporation and filling with more tap water.
My guess is I needn't do anything but let the pond mature? What say you??
Tom
I have been using the H2O2 for a month now. It does work great on string algae but the algae that causes pea soup water is not fazed by it. Hopefully that will balance out as the plants grow and shade the water. The HP keeps the algae off the rocks and sides good.
Loretta
Pea soup is normal this time of the year because the sun is so intense and creates suspended algae in time mother nature always takes care of it when your plants grow and more shade is given, usually by the time winter sets in LOL.
I do use Pond Shade in my ponds as I do not have lots of plants to provide required shade and I just love the sightly blue water instead of the green pea soup.
JoAnn
hey look at that I managed to post reply twice my fingers must really be quick this morning sorry about that.
JoAnn
Opps, actually 3 times wow i am really quick.
Y'all are making me worry a little because I have not had the pea soup problem. I did hose off the filter this morning for the first time, seems we do have a healthy population of what I think you call blood worms. The H2O2 does seem to be having an affect on the string algae finally!!!
Tom, your water parameters look fine. Now it's somewhat up to Mother Nature. I typically add a few (about 3 dozen or so) water hyacinths to a help add shade, provide habitat for amphipods (the link below may be interesting - click on item 8) as well as suck the bejabers - highly scientific term! - out of the nutrients that the algae might want to use. I've now switched to over-wintering w. hyacinths under some grow lights. Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you want any drawings for a relatively inexpensive setup (1 bank of 4 - 4 foot florescent lights is the major expense - less that $35)
JoAnn - You're fast! I can't even get the one post work right - had to come back in and edit the blasted thing!! LOL!
This just added - somehow got clipped in the thick of everything else:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2129/index.html
Sorry about that.
This message was edited Apr 22, 2005 10:03 PM