I've been pondering the Brugmansias in relation to competition amoung some groups and the question of why individuals hybridize brugs stays on my mind.
Is it about fame, having a person's name immortalize?
Fascinated with the process and learning and being a part of the creativity?
For those that have had Brugs commercially introduced, what is the realistic financial reward? Will it cover their expenses now?
Is there greater potential for financial reward since Brugs are become more popular?
Interesting items to ponder, don't you think?
Judy
Why Do People Hybridize Brugs?
IMHO everyone should have the same goal. To better the gene pool in the US and to introduce Brugs that are more virus resistant, stronger and more beautiful than what's already out there.
I find the excitement of planting a seed and watching it grow, wondering for months what it might look and then to have it grow into something special is very fulfilling.
Powerful positive response, good to hear!!
Judy
For me, it is putting two great brugs together that fit like a glove and waiting to see what the seed pod produces. Then the fun begins. I grow a few and share the rest with people who are excited about growing brugs from seed. Sure, it is nice to be recognized by friends, but not nearly as much fun as it is waiting to see what is on the other end of that little seed. We need to work hard at growing only the best we can with what we have and not do willy nilly crosses. I know that last year I did some crosses with L'Amour, a beautiful brug, but not the best parent available. I'm still learning and appreciate the time that people like Monika give to me. Through her book and her friendship, I've learned to be more patient and too make the right cross, not just cross two plants because it looks right. In the US, we are getting more genes to work with, thanks to Monika and others from across the pond. I think we will have a good summer with our brugs this year. Terry is right... we need to work toward everything she mentioned and be brave enough to throw away those that don't meet the criteria for the best of the best. JMO.
By the way, I don't think you could sell enough to pay for what it costs to raise them. At least not in cold climates where you would have to heat a greenhouse.
This message was edited Mar 19, 2005 7:20 PM
Judy, for me it's the second one you listed.
Fascinated with the process and learning and being a part of the creativity? And like Terry says
to better the gene pool in the US and to introduce Brugs that are more virus resistant, stronger and more beautiful than what's already out there and not name every Brug we grow just because we grew it and like it even if the traits aren't different from others. We don't want to have too many look alikes that we can't tell which is which.
Equally powerful messages Brugie & Ahelms!!
What about insect resistant or at least less attractive to insects?
I do it just for fun. Oh sure, I hope I can do some of the great things everyone else listed but truly I do it just because I love doing it. It makes me smile. And when I look at all my seedlings all over, even in the bathroom, I get filled with excitement and the feeling of pure anticipation.
I am filled with awe for I know anything could be possible for them. I actually like the anticipation of what they could be more than the actual realization of what they are when they do bloom. The state of having all things being possible is truly a great mind place to be in. I hope I am expressing it clearly enough. A natural high!!
And secondary to all that, brugs have allowed me to share family style here at Dave's. We are an extended family of sorts that I so enjoy. I get to share knowledge, stories, fun, and a little part of peoples lives here. Their joys and as well as their sadness. My life is so much richer for it. Where else can I talk to people from all over the country and even the world. I have friends now all over this country including Hawaii, (Hi Carol!), and even in Austria, Germany, Holland and England.
What could be better than our beloved Brugmansia???????????????
Judy insect resistance is another good thing to keep in mind when crossing. However what may be insect resistant to me may not be resistant for someone in another part of the country.
I know they have problems in the south with catapillars, aphids, etc. and to create a Brug that would be resistant to them would be wonderful.
Up here I hardly see a cat all summer and aphids and mealybugs are a rarity.
I do have a problem with slugs though and would love to introduce a new slug resistant Brug. LOL
I was just mentioning today to a friend on the phone that a few of the seedlings I have, have not been touched at all by spidermites or whiteflies, even when the ones next to them are being treated for either pest. I was shocked when I realized it.
It makes so much sense what Terry says about different parts of the country having different pests and problems.. I never thought about that.. another good reason to trial plants as many places as possible before completely releasing it. (Plus you get the added security of knowing if some tragedy happens to you beloved brug, someone has a back-up for you).
That is like Sexy Lady. Last year I had spidermites on the brugs all around her and she never got them!! I was so thrilled. But Sexy Lady is one tough lady!!
This is a Susie hybrid.
Wow, Sexy Lady is a beauty.
She is so big Ada, she is dramatic. Susie did well. I think she hybridizes because she is so good at it and she likes to bring joy to so many of us!! LOL
I have a lot of Susies that will bloom this year.
WOW, 2 are 2 headed. Looking good Kin.
They're looking great, Kin.
Ooops!
I should have mentioned that I placed two seeds in several of them.
You have quite the eye Kell but no double headers.
Edit
I think this is why some hybridize so they can share the seeds of their work and see the results in other Gardens.
This message was edited Mar 20, 2005 6:10 AM
Not good enough, LOL, I now see the twin trunks all the way down.
I hope this thread returns to interesting discussion on Brugs instead of an "oh wow, picture posting thread" where all relative informaiton is lost
I lack a sufficient education on plants to be able to converse in factual terms but I would think as with people and animals, a plant’s immunity is of extreme importance in its ability to withstand insect attack. There are many humans who get every virus or bacterial infection with which they are in contact but there are many who are never sick because they have a very healthy immunity system.
Since there have been references to specific brugs which stand alone without insects while all around them there are plants which are covered, it seems further research in regard to their genetic structure and if it could be bred into the new generations of Brugs would be a most noble endeavor.
Brugs are beautiful no doubt but their popularity will be held in check due to the insect problems. Most people do not have the time or inclination to continually fight these problems.
Shelly221 - could you please post the names of the seedlings which did NOT have the insects.
Everyone - Any information/postings in regard to 'bugless brugs' from anyone would be appreciate by all of us I am sure.
Breeding is much more than just walking through the brugmansia path and pollinating a plant with another plant. It means, that the breeder has to know about the genes and problems of the plants, he uses for hybridizing. Sometimes, he has to use a none first choice parent plant to introduce certain traits like color in a strain. The next generation and their breeding partners has to be selected carefully to avoid the accumulation of the unwanted traits.
He must raise all seedlings out of one cross (pod) or share seeds with people of his trust to find out about the quality of the seedlings.
When evaluating seedlings, we should not forget that Brugmansias are tropical plants and adjusted to modest warm temperatures combined with a very high humidity.
For that reason, many Brugmansias grow and bloom better in regions with modest summer temperatures (appr. 75 - 80F). The flowers last longer than in zones with very warm temperatures.
Monika - I would appreciate any enlightment you can give us in regard to insects being attracted to some brugs but not others.
I am going to watch my plants and seedlings more closely this year. I have also experienced insects on a plant and none at all on the one next to it. I do not know if it is a true resistance because I did not keep notes and follow the brug the next year. This will be something I will be more aware of and make notes and mark the brug in some way. There are so many variables to why a brug could be more resistant and for me, it could be a brug that tolerates the heat more than others and therefore is not stressed and weakened and more susceptible. Good information could be learned this year if everyone is acutely aware of their brugs and takes notes regarding temps, humidity, placement, suscepitable or not and to what, and follows thru observing into the second year.
BrugNanny - Wonderful suggestions
Judy, this is a good thread. I hope it will keep going as I can see it being very valuable to a lot of people when all is said and done. Thank you for starting this.
I agree with BrugNanny that there are many variables as to why one Brug is more resistant to insects than another.
Through the years I have heard that c. Double White is a spider mite magnet along with others that have velvety leaves.
In the north I find that to be the opposite as when I had a bad mite outbreak a few years ago my CDW was about the only one that was not affected.
I also find the Brugs with velvety leaves are least bothered here by slugs and especially earwigs.
I would love to learn more as to why they can be resistant in one part of the country and a magnet for insects in another.
I plan my crosses out in a journal, then make the cross and record the progress of the seedlings, what they looked like when they flowered and any problems. For a while I tried to keep up with the crosses I sent out, but have since given up on that!
I cross for specific things, one year I only worked on getting dwarf plants. Another time I wanted to see what came out of same color crosses vs different color crosses.
This past Christmas really tested their cold tolerance, It was sad to see the most cold tolerant brug I had was the ugliest one!(thin walled flowers, edges brown too easy and the color was like mud). I pulled it up.
snowhermit - I'm not sure about some brugs doing well in regard to insects in different parts of the country because:
- Disinformation abounds. Some people are "manic" in relation to having a remark to post, therefore they make up things.
- Cloudy Memories. In studying many, many threads on this forum I have often come across statements made by individuals which were exactly the
opposite of what they had stated in a prior posting.
- Confusion. People post in a factual manner, then add an "I think" statement afterward, but the supposed "fact" is all that is retained and passed along by people reading the post as "truth".
- Lost Information. So many of the threads turn into "Puff & Stuff" causing valid information to become totally lost. There are few people willing to wade through these threads looking for relative information. Which is a shame since this Forum does indeed contain some very valuable information. Don't get me wrong "Puff & Stuff" is fun and I enjoy seeing the pictures and reading the remarks just as much as anyone, but most all of the threads seem to go this way.
Judy, here in Iowa...things are different every summer. One summer I'll have spider mites like crazy and the next year absolutely none. I've never had a caterpillar problem with the exception of army worms on one brug and the same summer I had white wooley worms on a couple of others. Once removed, no more. I do have a big problem yearly with cucumber beetles, but thanks to Renee, I now have a product that takes care of them for me and I actually get nice blooms now. Talstar is what it is called in case anyone needs it. I have found that mites like brugs with more suaveolens genes in them and since I've removed most of them from my stock, I have not had a mite problem in the last two years.
Brugie - I have recently read some USDA information on beetles. I will get back with you in regard to what I found, but it will take a few minutes.
Calalily - many people are so hungry for Brugs because they can't find them in their area and/or wanting them cheap that they raise their hand for any and everything. These people have good intentions but most don't understand that they are part of a very serious endeavor and should take their responsibility seriously also. That is one of the reasons I opened this thread. People who use this Forum are not well informed for the reasons stated above.
What's the problem here?
Brugs are fun
rewarding in their spectacular beauty
easy to grow as an annual
-or- overwinter as cuttings if you wish.
Where else can you get so much beauty for a few bucks ?
I have no specific probs with mites or other pests AND I do not use chemicals.
It only gets more difficult with poor garden/greenhouse management practices.
There are no secrets or tricks to growing brugs , common sense prevails.
Knowledgable hybridizers such as Monika , A.K-A. , Snowhermit ,Cala ....etc, etc
are a blessing to us who love our bruggies .............
Buggy and disease prone brugs are not from a good responsible hybridizer's work ...........
Who would be sure to trial it for testing against these things for 2 or three years.
If it passes muster it will be released. if not it's compost ! Period !
All these Cruddy , un tested , look-alike brugs floating around ........
coming from unknown parents/seeds are what will cause most of the problems.
Re your critique on posts saying things like ....... I think or IMO or I believe
It's only polite as you are only giving your opinion ...... IMO
The person that knows all does not exist on this earth !
How right you are scooterbug!!!! You don't have a fight with me in this area I assure you.
Opinions are wonderful because it gives us a starting point. I in particular like it when someone clarifies their position by using such terms.
Cucumber Beetles Traps
My interruption of the information provided in the below articles is:
¼ lb zucchini squash or buffalo gourd
2 cups water
Blend to make a paste spread it on three 10” round paper plates and set around the parameter of the area you want protected, if there is evidence of beetles being in the area.
http://www.umresearch.umd.edu/CGC/cgc2/cgc2_23.htm
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/miscpesticides/alphaalkyl-metaldehyde/cucurbitacins/cucurbaticins_pet_899.html
Please read these articles for yourself to ensure my calculations etc are correct.
SB, I live in SE Texas and you live in Wisconsin and out climate conditions are so opposite of each other. I live in a climate where if we do not get a hard freeze then we can expect the insects to be worse the coming spring and summer. We just don't get the freezing weather like you do which definitely lowers the insect population.
You statement regarding...."It only gets more difficult with poor garden/greenhouse management practices" has some truth to it, but definitely is not all inclusive. I wish it could be that simple. Insects are everywhere and will prey upon plants in the very best of conditions. Why some prefer one over another........I do not know. In hundreds of years, we have not really came very far regarding insect resistant plants. Viruses are another thing that all plants have that we have no control over and will never be able to stop.
It takes alot of knowledge and education and years of experience to produce worthwhile brugmansias. We are so far behind the European hybridizers, such as Monika. If it were not for her sharing of her knowledge and years of hybridizing and the sharing of brugmansia genes with us, we would not have some of the unique ones that we have now. If we were completely on our own, it would take us many more years to even come close to some that she has hybridized. Monika has spent years of trials and errors and documentation to achieve what she has. It is a slow process.
I think gardening and growing brugmansias is fun and exciting. I love the anticipation of seedlings. I also understand that there are those that just want plants and to have a pretty yard and I think that is good also. I don't get upset about what is out there anymore or how many look-alikes there are because you or I will never be able to control it. For me it is a waste of time to worry about it. What I can control is my own environment and what I have in it and that is my focus.
This is a good thread because it is giving us some deeper insight and making us think........especially those that are serious about hybridizing for quality brugs.
BrugNanny - I totally agree with everything you said and would like to add,
The opinions expressed here by those of you who are hybridizing, certain has made me, and I'm sure many others, more fully respect and appreciate the work you are doing.
Judy
Wonderful thread. Does anyone know of articles on hybridizing for disease resistance that uses lay terms. So that none science majors-can understand.
Thanks for the information, Judy. I may give that bait a try this summer.
Hi Barbara........you have been away too long.........good to see you here.
I don't know of any such articles. I was wondering about the resistance to disease of the brugmansias that grow in the wild compared to the ones used in gardens. I would have to assume the ones in the wild represent the survival of the fittest and the weak ones die off. Monika does not keep weak plants or seedlings at all and that is what we should be doing. Weaker plants are more prone to disease.
We have to distinguish be tween disease resistance and disease tolerance. Disease resistance can be reversed when a Virus or a fungi mutates and adapts itself to the envoirment in a disease resistant plant.
Virus, bacterias, fungi and other microorganism adapt themselves continuesly to the changing enviromental conditions to be able to survive. It is the process of evolution.
Tropical plants are adapted to their native envoirment and not to the cooler climate of the northern hemisphare and this has to be considered, when we evaluate new hybrids.