K, Big Daddies thread reminded me to ask about these two things. Thought it might be neat to have a whole thread dedicated to thrifty ponding if there isnt one already. Y'all game?
I was reading and saw a website that said the woman used Silo Cap for her pond liner- it is suppsoed to be VERY cheap and she said it works fine. Where can you buy this stuff? I looked online with no luck.
Does anyone have a rubber roofing lined pond? Where do you buy that at?
Thanks!
Thrifty Ponding Thread
Crimsontsavo
If you can find someone getting rid of an old water bed it makes a great liner. Much thicker than reg pond or roofing liner.
Betty
Ohh- that's a really good idea. Wonder who has a waterbed and if they'll miss it, hehe.
Will be watching this one!! Thanks for starting this thread.
John
No problem! Im gonna post some money saving stuff when I get my head together. :-)
www.freecycle.org might provide the 'link' to a free waterbed mattress, or perhaps contact a waterbed company, to see if they do upgrade setups and if so ask about the old waterbed mattress.
So glad you opened this thread, a new thread was exactly the place for this discussion.
This message was edited Mar 11, 2005 8:27 AM
Ohh- I'll respond better to this later- gotta go to town right now.
Thank you!
Here's a question for all the thrifty ponders: Have you ever heard of using a waterproof woven polyethelyne tarp as as a pond liner?
My pond has delusions of grandeur and now I need a liner that is at least 22 x 35. I just couldn't stop digging! I've read all the threads I can find on using roofing liner and waterbed matresses (they don't make 'em this big). I've been to the Bend Tarp and Liner site, have checked Ebay, and have done several hours worth of Google searching.
Hope someone at this site has some more ideas.
Pixydish
We wait.
Sorry guys- forgot to post here.
I have never heard of using a tarp as a liner. If it holds water and wont rot I don't see why not but.. it might be bad for fish if it's posionous.
I did a search and couldnt find anything on it.
If the tarp is cheap enough you could give it a go and then add some cheap goldfish to see if it's toxic.
The tarps I've looked at are industrial grade pvc or polyethylene like the ones at http://tarpsplus.com.
One about the size I'd need would be 200$ plus freight.
ON Ebay, Ponds4Less sells a PPL-24 liner in the size I need (22 x 34) for $320, including shipping. This is the same stuff that Bend Liners in Oregon sells, only the shipping is included.
I haven't checked on the cost of roofing liner yet. I'm wondering how hard it is to clean off the powdery stuff so it will be safe. Also, there really are a bunch of scare tactics out there about using roofing liner instead of the "pond' liner, but I know I've read on this forum that people are out there using it.
Basically, I got carried away, and now my budget is being stretched thin by the liner problem.
Here's a photo of the pond as is. I'm reinforcing the sides with concrete to keep them from collapsing, hence the forms you see. The middle part of the pond is almost 3 feet deep. The shelves around the edges are 18 inches, and in the very back what you see is the bog area. The water from the bog will spill over a stone into the deepest part of the pond. The front area is a sloping beach.
Now to research using a sump pump for the pumping action...
Dang, DG spazzed on me and I lost my post, LOL.
Here I go again...
It looks like it may be the same or just a little bit more expensive to use the pond liner in contrast to the tarp. Shipping costs can be really high. Worth checking into I guess.
I wont tell you to find Rubber Roofing Liner and use it because I havent tried it yet. I have read lots of stories about people using it with no ill effects though!
I also read you can wash it off with the hose several times. (don't use soap)
You might want to use a clean (brand new) mop to gently scrub it down as your washing with the hose.
Maybe even try adding vinegar as a cleaning agent.
Streach the whole liner out flat on the ground and scrub and rinse away!
I am still looking for Silo Cap/Silo Capping. I can not find it ANYWHERE online. Any help would be appreciated!
It is supposed to be very very very cheap and you can double it up and use it as a pond liner.
Here's what i am talking about!
http://www.littlecountryvillage.com/pond.shtml
Yep, I've seen that website. Here's what I've found for silo cap:
http://automotive.hardwarestore.com/11-28-plastic-tarps/film-gard-heavy-duty-plasti-tarp-and-silo-cap-198911.aspx
Looks like it's just heavy plastic to me, just like that landscaping plastic sold at Lowe's except at Lowes I can get 6 mil plastic tarp and this is only 3 mil.
Here're the other alternatives I've found:
http://pondliner.com has an excellent selection of different kinds of pondliner, including the 20 and 30 mil polyethylene. This weighs MUCH less that EPDM so it's less to ship, can go UPS rather than truck for a liner my size. The 20 mil is 180.00, and the 30 mil is 225.00. http://Justliners.com has the same stuff, plus a couple of other kinds, but they cost more. I've put so many hours into researching this that my husband is starting to get worried. LOL
AT this point I just want a *** liner!
Pondliner.com also has some decent prices on pumps, etc.
My biggest concern in choosing a pondliner is doggie and critter toenails. I know my aussies will get in the pond, in fact I'm making it easy for them so they'll be nice. I'm making the sloping beach using a deep bed of gravel and river rocks. The river rocks will be mortered onto the liner to stay in place and hold the gravel in place.
Bigger concern than the dogs is the number of critters of the night who live up in my trees - especially racoons. I love the little devils, but their toenails are sharp. The black plastic silo cap or landscaping plastic is not likely to hold up to claws. Although the woman from Tennessee (I think?) with the cute pond lined with plastic says her dogs swim in hers...
I'm up for suggestions for pumps, etc.
Pixy Dish,
That pond is going to be increadible... Some people's pools are not that big. Do you have delusions of granduer? That's quite an undertaking for one person....I give you a lot of credit. You must be young too. At my age, I have trouble digging a hole to plant a petunia!! LOL
Good luck..will be watching.
Nancy Lee
Hi NancyLee,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I confess that in most things I do in the yard, I have delusions of grandeur! Alas, my body is not so young, but the boys who dug this pond with me are!
They shoveled 5 wheelbarrows of dirt and rock to my 1! I just kept remembering that I had heard of lots of people whose ponds were too small, but never anyone whose pond was too large! Plus, I have a big yard, so it just seemed puny when we first started.
Thanks for watching the progress.
M
pixydish, i got my liner from lilyblooms, it's 45 mil. http://www.lilyblooms.com/product.php?bigcat=2&cat=15
you might want to check them out. belinda
PixyDish,
Your pond looks Great!! Bet ya can't wait! Good that you are putting steps (so to speak) in your pond. You will need a flat surface to stand on if you have to get in. slanted slides get slippery and can be hard to move around on.
I would suggest you spend the (sometimes considerably more) on your liner and skimp somewhere else. 1) Inexpensive liners are not UV resistant and will decompose in a few years. 2) Liners build an algae slime on them in a year or so and that is your firend. It is easier to maintain your clear water if that algae is consuming nutrients. If you have liner problems down the road, you will not only be looking for a place to put all your critters, but you will also be loosing that wonderful coating. 3) At some point in time, you will need to walk or place heavy objects in your pond. It is a painful experience to inadvertently put a hole in your liner and be looking for where you need to put the patch especially if it is on the bottom.
There is this "forever" discussion about the difference between roofing rubber and the Pondguard by Firestone. It is a tough decision that one has to make. Although I haven't used roofing rubber, I have talked to several folks that have used it with no problems. Most recently I have heard that now-a-days the Pondguard is only marginally more expensive than the roofing stuff . Whatever your choice, my preference is the rubber liner. I know it is gonna be there in 20 years no matter what I do to it. (Consider, thought, this is not for the ponder who is going to realize in a few years that they didn't make their pond big enough .)
Patti Rose
www.rosepond.com
Great links Pixie! Thank you.
Ohh doggy toenails. That wa sthe farthest thing from my mind. Maybe you need a concrete pond? LOL
I'm doing some thrifty ponding surfing now. Will post back soon with results.
Belinda, thanks for the site. This is the lowest price for the rubber liner that I've seen yet. I'll check out how much it would be to ship. Thanks much for pointing me in this direction!
Patti Rose, thanks as well for your comments and advice. I am concerned that the liner hold up over time, which is why I haven't purchased anything yet. The PPL liners sold on ebay and on justliners.com and pondliners.com come with a 20 year warrenty and are UV treated. They are also fish-safe. They are basically industrial liners that have been used for very large containment ponds, wastewater treatment areas, etc. They are allegedly more puncture resistant than the butyl liners, and are also almost tear-proof due to their woven inner core. They are lighter weight, which means I can handle them myself, and they will have smaller 'folds' to fit into the pond. My guess is that these industrial material manufacturers saw an opportunity to sell their product to the home-owner market and jumped in to give Firestone a bit of competition. You are so right about wanting the liner to last for years, and about not wanting to disrupt the ecosystem once its established.
Hey, thanks, too for the link to your website! I'll be checking out your plant offerings!
The clock is ticking. I must choose a liner soon, or I will never have a pond. Will it be the butyl liner, or the PPL? Stay tuned for more excitement.
Pixy...
My HD has liners... have no idea how much they cost...have no pond....yet!!
Nancy Lee
I am always into thrifty gardening. However, your liner is the most important aspect of your pond. Even with the most expensive liner available you could still have bad luck and end up with a hole. My idea is dont skimp on the liner if you have any choice at all. What a pain to get everything in place and then have to take out plants, fish and seasoned water to plug a leak. I put 45 mil EPDM in my pond because the roof liner was almost as expensive as the pond liner I found at pondliner.com. Recenly AZ ponds had a good sell on liner and I got a small piece of my lotus pond.
Now having said that, my 75 year old aunt has a goldfish pond "in a shaded area" and she has used thick double black plastic for a liner for several years and no problems. I'm just not that lucky ! LOL
My first pond has a rubber roofing liner
9 x 14 and 4 1/2 feet deep
It was given to us for free
I've never had a problem with it
Trying to find more of it for free(yeah right)
My second pond has a old pool liner in it
Again,never had a problem with it
The blue color is the only drawback
but the alge that covers it helps
My third pond is built ,but as of yet,is still unlined
The pool liner I was given has too many holes to make it worth while to patch
It did sit for months and my creatures got at it
I now have another pool liner that I think will work but we still have a lot of snow so it will have to wait a few weeks before I can see what my options are
I was also given some HUGE peices of styrofoam
(8 x 3 x 4 approx)
I am going to try to somehow sculpt them into a waterfall and use some cement or bondo to make it look like rock
Pixydish, You are going to have a wonderful lilypool/pond. You live not far from where my yoiungest son and his family live just north of Sumner.
The fellow who works for me when I have the money and he has the time, and i built my two ponds about 10 years ago. I bought regular heavy duty rubber based pond liner, and I have never been sorry. Don't to cheap there. I have sandy soil and we used a kind of hyper-tufa mix on the sides of the deepest area to hold the bank in place. We also used old pieces of rug and underlayment material to protect the liner from roughness, rocks etc. We used local (10 to 15 miles) rock slabs for the top border and to cover the edges of the liner.
If I can find it i will send a photo of my pond. If I can be of any help just ask. DonnaS
crimsontsavo, I agree...doggie toenails! Our yellow lab fell in our pond yesterday, while going through some 'greeting disorder' when my brother arrived. It was several moments before I could reach him, during which time he was kicking the side of the pond trying to climb out; it's 2 ft. deep with straight sides and 300 gallons. At that moment I was glad that we went with a pre-formed, Fiberglas agricultural pond for our small garden. Between birch tree roots, space limitations, long-term use and raccoons, we decided on pre-formed. But if I were using a flexible liner, and I certainly would have if we had a larger space to work with, I would go with Charlotteda's advice and save money elsewhere. It’s not worth the headaches later on and there are always accidents…like large, yellow labs!
Speaking of saving money, we have all the plants we want (a neighbor gave us papyrus, taro, rush, hyacinth and frogbit – and we returned the favor with Chinese Ground Orchid and homemade boysenberry jam), and we bought several oxygenating plants but still need hardy lilies. Any tips on where to buy Rose Arey at discount? I saw a thread about Wal-Mart, so will check there. They were $28.95 at the San Francisco Flower and Garden show this month, and I just couldn’t see plunking down the money without further research. Any tips?
Trigradener,
I love it, I love, "Greeting Disorder"...I knew my Shih Tsu had a medical problem and not just a loony-toons.. Our poor babies....What's a mother to do?
Nancy Lee
I don't know much about waterlilies I'm afraid. Walmart seems to have a nice assortment of them- but I wonder if they are what they say they are. They get mixed up alot with roses. :-O
For free plants- try checking places people are developing, most times you can dig native plants if they are gonna be killed by bulldozers and the like.
Won't be any fancy named things though. :-(
I don't know of any non-natives that are illegal to dig.
Good luck with your lily hunt! I'll keep my eyes open in town for one.
Here's a thrifty plant idea for your pond- try carrots around the edges! They have ferny foliage and are soo pretty. (cheap too!)
There's lots of veggies you can use to landscape, I'll post a list when I can.
Your carrot idea is a good one!!
This has been my own personal experience building ponds. I've built at least five over the last 10 years, each one a little bigger than the one before. My new philosophy is figure out what size pond you want, then double it. lol
We put in a very large pond last September at our new house. It turned out beautiful and I love it. There is a "bog" that acts as overflow and an extra biological filter . My bog (10' x 12') and is lined with a reinforced tarp that was used to protect the baseball fields from rain. My pond is lined with pond safe rubber pond liner. It was a 30' x 35' piece and cost about 400.00 dollars or .39 per square foot. I drove 100 miles and picked it up myself from a pond supply distributer (wholesale) Now I have used roofing EDPM rubber before, which some say will kill plants and fish due to the fire retardant on it, but I did not have a problem. It can usually be purchased locally for around .35 per square foot but I don't know if there are 30' widths available. Look in the yellow pages for roofing supplies or ask a roofer where they get their supplies. Before using it I washed it very well with a mild detergent. And if you have to join seams to make a larger piece make sure you use the rubber tape and primer that sets the seal of the tape. The seam it forms is as strong as the liner.
However if I had to build another pond I would never use the tarp or anything other than EDPM 40 mil rubber. Especially a large pond, I have had to patch the tarp for leaks three times since installation and the aggravation and time it uses up has ended up making it not so much of a bargain and I got the tarp for free. The seam between my rubber liner in the pond and the tarp lining the bog has been the major problem. Finding and repairing leaks in a large pond is a big hassle and if you have to pay for your water, not to mention whatever product you use to keep it clear, after you have to refill a few times it has'nt saved as much as you might think. One thing I did not consider is the cost of keeping a large pond algae free. The additives you can buy at Home Depot and Lowe's are to treat ponds around 1000 gallons or so. A large pond can be 8000 gallons or more depending on the depth. My pond is around 16,000 gallons so if they leak out after I treat the water it is expensive at 50.00 per half gallon.
So I guess my point is always buy the best you can afford and you will never be disappointed. When figuring what you can afford always factor in repairs, water, time, and supplies it takes to maintain it. When building the pond figure the cost and add 25% to get a better estimate of the cost. We ended up spending about 2500.00 on a pond that would have cost at least 10,000.00 if we paid someone to do it. The extra 75.00 dollars it would have cost for a rubber liner in the bog would have been well worth it. I agree with Rutholive, the pond liner is not the place to save money.
But if you figure the footage carefully you can build a bigger pond for less footage than the calculators suggest because they add about 2 x the deepest area of the pond plus 2', for the depth and extra for overhang. Our depth is 18" to 48" and slopes from the most shallow to the deepest. If we would have figure the liner size using the standard method we would have purchased a liner that cost at least 100.00 more than what we paid. If you want to know how we calculated it you can e-mail me and I will give you the formula.
Having said this my pond was was worth every penny and the aggravation and I would not hesitate to do it again, just would do it a little differently. I would have made a shelf 12" wide and about 6" deep, around the pond to place my rocks on. It would look a lot better, the water would go up the side of the rocks so it looks more natural, and you would not need as much overhang.
By the way I have seen some awesome hypertufu waterfalls in the forums that are not too expensive to make. You can also make your own skimmer using landscape timbers stacked (2 ' x 4' x 4') lined with pond liner placed at the top of your waterfall To make your overflow leave the top 4' timber off on one side. Circulate your water through the resevior with your pump after adding a layer of volcano rock, then quilting batting then another layer of volcano rock, Make sure the rock is'nt dyed red. Filters out the algae and such and saves a lot of money.
Sorry to go on and on. Hope this helps you with your pond.
Loretta
Thanks to everyone for the informative postings! Thanks especially, Loretta, for the long and detailed post. Looks like I need to go with the rubber pond liner if I'm to listen to what other's have learned! I always start out trying to save $$, then almost always decide to just stop trying to 'reinvent the wheel' and do it right the first time! When I get into my research mode, my husband just looks at me and shakes his head. He does this alot! Twenty three years of marriage will do that to a man.
We went down to Oregon this weekend to visit our daughter at school and there was an awsome small pond right outside her dorm that I hadn't noticed before! I'll post a picture later.
Also, visit this website: http://www.thewatergardenshop.com.html The way I read it, their highest postage is 9.95, including pond liners! Also, they are just outside of Portland, so I could drive there and back in a day. Wish I had been able to visit the store on our trip, but no time to do so. I was referred there by another nursery owner in the Salem area who said they are very nice folks and quite helpful. Check them out.
Pixydish
Check on EDPM for roofing in your area. There are places that sell building supplies to roofers and such and at .35 a square foot is a good deal and no freight. It might cost more in your area due to the cost in getting in there. The size pond liner you want (22' x 35') would have ship LTL (truck) because it weighs about 225#. + some places charge a pallet charge of 25.00. Anything over 150# cannot ship UPS. Don't you just love all the little hidden costs? That is what the extra 25% covers. At HD I think the liner is about 2.00 a square foot but should check because I am not sure.
Here is the pond right after we got through with it.
This is the bog last fall. It is situated at the edge of of culvert and the edge at that end is about 1" lower for overflow.
One more of the pond after we built the deck and fireplace pit at the edge. Notice the water level. Low because of a leak.
Do the tree roots present a hazard?
I've heard of tree roots puncturing a liner.
Yes, tree roots can puncture a liner as well as sharp rocks in the soil.....but that is what you put the pond liner (not the rubber one) made of felt, old carpet...something to protect the rubber from the soil below it.
I used both a felt liner and some old carpet under my rubber liner. I have some pretty invasive trees around my place who like to send roots half a block away from the mother tree. With a big pond such as mine, I didn't want to have to repair the rubber liner if at all possible.
I get in the pond once a year to clean out a little scum off the bottom of it. I wear rubber bottomed beach shoes so I don't slip and fall....With my swim mask on I think the fish would die of fright if they suddenly saw me. LOL
The water feature that my mind keeps going to is a small creek winding through the garden. Any thoughts?
John
For a creek you definately wanna keep it on a slight grade.
I did some research last year into this.
You can do a concrete creek- you just have to treat it to make it fish safe.
If you do concrete why not add some pockets to plant in. You can also add some native fish from local creeks/streams. Flag Fin Shiners would be great!
We are thinking alike! How do you make concrete fish/plant safe? I don't think you need much grade if the pump is strong enough.
Saves you enegry if it has a grade- prolongs the life of the pump too- doesnt have to work as hard.
You wash it with some sort of acid or something. You brush it on- rinse it off, repeat repeat.. lol.
Lemme go check.
These are all my gardens- yes.. they stole them from me! hehe
If you get the time- check out their gardens- man they are GOOD!
http://www.victoria-adventure.org/water_gardening/pond_building_paradise.html
I'll get more links.