Restoring my pond... some basic questions

A while back I posted regarding my "pond quandary." The link below goes to that thread. I have a link to my Webshots album on that thread, and I made sure it still works, so you should be able to click on it and see my pictures even if you don't want to read all the posts! :)

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/461746/

Ok. Done looking? Here goes- before I start, when I say the "back" of the pond I am referring to the flat edge of the pond that is next to the house. The "front" is that curvy edge directly opposite the "back" edge. Then the left would be to your left as you look at the picture, and of course the right side would be your right, as you are looking at the picture.

First of all, my landscaping plan now includes a deck, or brick patio (haven't decided which) to the right of the pond. So, according to all design logic, I should put a waterfall on that left end so you can see it as you sit on the deck/patio. But every single picture I have seen of a pond with a waterfall has some height to it and it's up against a wall or landscaped with something that appears to form a solid back drop. Many times the pond is in a corner of the yard so the corner is where the waterfall is built. What's behind mine is just more yard, so to me it is going to look funny. I want to use plants along the back and front edges of course, but those two sides are throwing me. So, my second thought was to use a fountain in the middle as opposed to a waterfall affect. Thoughts there?

Second question involves just the basics as to what I need to buy! I am lost. Well, as a caveat, I have had indoor aquariums and "get" that you have a pump to provide oxygen. It moves water and powers your little bubble makers, etc. The filter is separate and hangs on the aquarium side or runs under the gravel. It has carbon and other media to filter solid waste, ammonia, etc. out of the water. I assume that same logic applies to an outdoor pond, but some of that stuff for waterfall making looks like it may be pump/filter combos. Is that the way to go?! What I have priced so far is a "fountain kit with pump" that was $70 and rated to filter a pond much larger than mine (still not sure what the total gallons are though). That would be my pump and fountain (and NOT doing a waterfall). The second item is "Fish Mate Pressurized UV and Bio Pond Filter" which is $235 online, but I found for $200 on Ebay. Again, allows for a much larger pond than mine. So I am estimating $300 to get it up and running. Of course I still need to patch the crack and seal it, as discussed in my old thread, but I have that all figured out now. And I do plan on having goldfish (Koi are too big I think) and plants so I DO know I need a filter and pump. I'm just not sure exactly what product I need. Any sort of basic advice is greatly appreciated! Once I am done with this phase I will be picking your brains about fish and plants. :)

Thanks,

Jamie

If you have too much movement of the water, your waterlilies will not grow good. That is why I don't use a fountian. As for the back of your waterfall you could plant bamboo at that end. It would look pretty lush and green. Also the general rule is to decide what size pond you want and double it or even triple it. There are some great pond building websites that can answer your other questions better than I. Just Google pond building and I imagine hundreds of 1000s will come up. I do not use a pump made for a pond but instead go to the section that sells sump pumps and such. Much more economical and it will be no different than one that has watergarden pump written on the box.

Good idea about the sump pump Shadow! Kinda like getting shop lights and not spending tons of money on "grow lights."

The deal is, my pond is already built. The "what size?" question is already settled for me. Whatever size that concrete hole is in my backyard is what size my pond is! :)

It is under a magnolia tree and I have 2 big oaks in the backyard. So I don't even have enough sunlight for waterlilies anyway. I thought if I put fish in I needed both a pump AND a filter. Do you have no pump and fish too?

I feel like I have read and read and read and I still don't know exactly what I need to purchase in the way of a filter and pump. I keep skipping the building parts of the info I obtain and go straight to setting it up for plants and fish since my pond is already built.

As for landscaping a waterfall area at that left side, I think it would be pretty from the patio area, but walking around and behind it will look kind of odd I think. I am leaning towards planting the entire perimeter a similar height and having a small fountain in the middle. I want it to be more bubbly than a spray.

Thanks for the reply!

In the past I have had fish with no filter in the pond. As long as I stayed within the recommend number and size of fish for the pond it worked fine. Oh make sure that you don't overfeed them. I've seen some beauitful ponds in the shade. And since there is no sun, algae blooms are kept to a minimum. I am partial to waterfalls myself but I imagine doing one with a fountian would cost less. And you could get by with a pretty small pump. My pump pushes the water up to a steep incline of about 12 feet and so it needed to push some volume for the waterfall to look good. The general rule is you want to circulate the entire volume of water every two hours. So if you have a 500 gallon pond and no need to pump the water to the waterfall a pump of 175 to 250 GPH would work fine. The higher you want your fountian to shoot up the bigger pump you need. However I have had water features where the pump was too big and the water splashed out. I am not an expert but have had ponds for years and built a few of them and this has worked well for me.

Loretta

In aquariums, pumps and filters are often totally seperate. In ponds, a pump is often used to drive a filter. I have the Fish Mate UV filter (8 watt) and I love it. My pond is about 700 gallons, and I use a 300 gph pump to run the filter. Keeps the water nice and clear. I also use water hyacinth as a filtration system since they are so good at sucking up "fertilizer" that the fish produce. I don't know if water hyacinth is legal in the south, or if it will grow in shade, though.

Thanks Sylvia. I have never seen a pump/filter combo for an aquarium at all- didn't think they even exited but I could be wrong! I thought you could buy a combo system for ponds, but that they were expensive. Again, could be wrong.

So you're saying you bought the Fishmate filter, which needs to be powered by a pump. So you bought a separate pump and hooked it up to the filter? Sorry to be so stupid, but I just want to make sure I understand!

My first step is going to be to clean out the pond really well and patch the crack in the bottom. Then seal it. Then I am going to get one of those attachments for my water hose that counts gallons and fill up the pond. That way I can get an exact figure for how many gallons I have. The pond is irregularly shaped and has various depths so I can't seem to get a good estimate. I already figured out the logistics of this part via my first thread regarding my pond!

Once I have a good number as to how many gallons I have, I will actually purchase the pump and filter. I just want to figure out WHAT I need before I get to that point. How did you know what pump to get to fit your filter? Is that a universal size or something?

I used to work in a pet store. One of the most confusing things for people was that you could buy an air pump or a water pump! Not interchangable items. You will almost always need a water pump for your pond but not as often need an air pump because a pond has a greater surface area for gas exchange.

Yes, I bought the fishmate filter and then the water pump to power it. The UV bulb has a power cord and the pump has a power cord. The pump goes in the bottom of the pond and a plastic hose goes from the pump to the filter.

Hoses come in a few sizes, but the product's packaging should tell you which size will fit the product. I use the same filter indoors in the winter as I do outside, but I use a different size pump and hose because the indoor tank is much smaller than the outdoor one.The water gets pushed through the hose and into the filter box.

The water passes under the UV light, over a sponge and some bioballs, and returns to the pond by gravity. The filter sits on the edge of the pond, and the returning water runs out the spout on the bottom.

You want a pump strong enough to push water as high and as far as you need it to go and still turn the volume of the pond over several times a day without creating so much current that life is uncomfortable for the fish. Not as hard as it sounds.

My pond is 700 gallons, my pump is 300 gallons-per-hour. Theoretically the whole volume of my pond gets turned over every two hours, give or take. Now, because of pump placement and shape of pond this is never totally accurate, but it is plenty close enough.

I hope this makes it more clear for you. Never worry about asking too many questions! Make sure that you patch with something that is fish safe. Those water meters for hoses are a great idea!

One other thing-are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle in fish systems? If so, great. If not, I will describe it here for you and you can do more research too. I just didn't want to type it all out if I was repeating things you already know!

Let me know!

Wow! Thanks Syliva! That IS what I needed to hear- very detailed explanations of what exactly I need and what it hooks up to!

If you link to my first post, you will see the suggestions for patching. I contacted the manufactures of those products suggested and found the most economical fix for the problem that is long lasting AND non-toxic to fish. So I think I'm good there.

So you have an above ground filter? I want to bury mine at the edge of the pond. Which is why I liked the Fish Mate one I looked at. Plus, the feature of pushing a button and the sludge comes out of the filter and you can use it in your garden, according to the info on the website. I may not get a fountain at all. Just a filter hooked up to a WATER pump and not worry about an air pump. Thanks for the distinction there by the way!

The nitrogen cycle- I am pretty sure I know what that means from having aquariums. My understanding is that fish waste is nitrogenous and breaks down into ammonia which is highly toxic. In nature, the volume of water per fish is high and waste products become diluted naturally. But in aquariums, it does not take long for ammonia concentrations to reach toxic levels. So you "cycle your tank" to establish bacteria in the filter to convert ammonia to a nontoxic form. That's why you aren't supposed to change all your filter media at once. Is that anywhere close to right?!

Whoa, bury the filter? Texasgarden, I am sorry, I think we are talking about different filters after all! I'll try to find a picture of mine.

You are really close on the nitrogen cycle. Good, that is so important to understand. Fish produce ammonia that breaks down into nitrite that breaks down into nitrate. Takes about a month starting with a sterile tank to get a good culture going. You can speed this up by adding plants or gravel from an established aquarium. Indoors, I could predict exactly how long a tank had been set up by the chemical levels in the water, but outdoors I usually see little or no ammonia, nitrite, nitrate even in the first few days because the plants are so efficient.

This is the filter I have:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=5292&N=62728+22768+2146960067

Is it similar to the one you were looking at?

I am thinking of ordering this one:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=10394&inm=1&N=62728+113344+113566

See where it says "can be buried above or below pond level?" I saw something like that in a pond magazine I read too. It looks like you bury it so it doesn't show, but that top part is visible. You pop the top to change the media, if I am understanding it correctly. What do you think of that one? May be a bit "over kill" for my pond but I just don't want a visible filter. Yours looks small though- like I could disguise it with some plants or something.

I just remember when I first set up my aquarium a looong time ago DH got impatient b/c I said it needed to be set up and running for 30 days before we added any "real" fish. Real = expensive. I called the first round of cheapies I put in our "test fish" and most of them did indeed die... except for the comet I threw in. Ha!

I was just wondering if I kept the number of fish BELOW the recommended number per gallon in my pond, if a full on filter would be necessary. Think I could just use the Stress Coat I used for my aquarium? Ha!

That's a sharp looking filter. Sounds good to me. I bet you could plant a large leafed plant next to that after burying it and never even see it. I hide mine in rudbeckia. The plastic and the leaves are almost the same color. Oh, it is hard to "over filter" a pond. Cleaner is better, as long as you don't sterilize everything and lose your good bacteria.

Any guesses on the volume of your pond at the moment? The indoor "1 inch of fish per gallon" doesn't really work outside. Since pond fish generally get fairly large, there is a really complex formula for estimating the mass of your fish and its waste output compared to the surface area and volume of your pond. I will see if I can find that formula somewhere.

One of my koi books recommends 100 gallons of water minimum to each adult koi. Well, an adult koi is 2-3 feet long. I have eleven fish (koi and comets) from 3 inches to twelve inches in my pond of about 700 gallons. I run the filter 24/7, I have 4 potted water lilies, and I cover the middle pool of my pond in water hyacinth. My system is three plastic preform ponds linked together, so I can keep the fish and plants in different areas. These same fish are in my house right now in 150 gallons of water.

Now, I wouldn't really recommend so many fish in so little water, but I am out of space in the house and hubby says no to enlarging the pond. I change 50% of the water every week, and I bring my pond filter inside to run with all the established bacteria in it. I check the water regularly, and they do fine. However, we had a power outage once that killed some fish and once a box that I was careless with fell into the pond, clogged the filter, and killed some fish. Boy I felt terrible when that happened! My oldest fish is 5 years old, but realistically speaking he is pretty stunted for his age. They are very healthy and give a good showing of "feeding frenzy" but they would probably by larger in a bigger environment. Nitrate (and various other pheromones and chemicals in closed water systems) inhibits fish growth. The cleaner you can keep the water, the bigger the fish get. It is just easier to keep a larger volume of water clean.

I love Stress Coat. I buy it by the jug. I think it is $25 for 128 ounces, which goes quite a long way. I also like Neutral Regulator by SeaChem, but I use that mostly because my tap water (city) is high in pH, almost 9.

Boy, you've got me raring to go now and my pond is still frozen solid outside! If I can get the camera to speak to the computer, I'll try to put in some photos of my pond for you.

Did you look at the pictures of my pond? I think volume wise I would have enough for a Koi, but I just think it would be kind of mean to keep one in a pond that small. We tried to come up with an estimate of the number of gallons but we got such a huge swing depending on how we calculated it, that I decided I will just fill it up and use that hose attachment to count the gallons.

It sounds like you keep yourself quite busy with your pond and fish activities! Do your dogs leave it alone? Mine like to drink that nasty water as it is, so I bet when it's actually clean they will just love it... or leave it alone since the "flavor" will be gone. That's why I am trying to keep it as chemical free as possible- not sure if Stress Coat hurts pets who drink it so I'd rather not use anything at all. They both hate water so I'm not worried about them jumping in or anything.

I think I will go with that bigger filter just b/c I want to bury it. I have a nandina I will bury it behind and that should keep it hidden year-round. I have to budget for this though, so I think I will just get it cleaned out, patched, filled and a water pump going. I have 3 pond plants now but I just keep them in a big container that I filled with water. For once I was happy to buy a plant container without holes in the bottom. Normally that irritates me. :) I will move those to my pond and just save up for a filter. I may also toss in a few comets and just to start the cycle, even though it won't have a filter yet.

Now I need to start researching pond plants that tolerate shade. Sure wish I could find something that bloomed! But I guess I can use pots of impatients around the pond for color. We'll see.

Thanks again for all the great information!!!

Sounds like you are going to do great with the pond. I did look at your pictures but I am bad at estimating size unless I can touch an object. I bet you could toss in a couple of comets, some plants, and a pump to move the water, and be just fine.

Make sure to get a pump with one of those sponge prefilters. It clogs fast, but it is great for growing bacteria and keeping gunk out of the moving parts of the pump. I rinse my prefilter inside at least once a week in a bowl of pond water, then I use that to water the house plants. Really helps to keep the water clear.

So go slow, there is no rush to do everything at once. I always get excited and try to do everything at once, but I usually have to go back and do things over again if I'm not careful :)

And the dogs-they love to drink pond water and eat water hyacinth. Of course I have Newfs-water dogs! Finally I put up a fence in the yard to keep them out of the water, the koi were complaining about the funny-looking dogfish! The inside pond is in a room they don't have access to alone, but they try to follow me in there when I feed the fish to get a drink. Once, the biggest fish bit the puppy on the tongue. That was really funny, you should have seen the look on his face!!

Oh I'm a "do it all at once" girl too! My husband tried to "talk me off the ledge" so to speak b/c I was ready to torch my entire yard. He said ok, we bought an 80 year old house with an over-planted, unmaintained landscape. You can't do everything from demolition, to planting, to pond restoration, sod laying and deck building in one year. You want to go from Blair Witch Project to Better Homes and Gardens over night! Ha! And it was so true! I want a 6 year old garden look in a 1 year old garden. Not happening! I am forcing myself to be patient with this pond project. :)

I knew you had Newfs so I was wondering how you kept them out! Our new neighbor had one who passed away just before he moved here from Minneapolis. He was asking me if I knew where he could get another one. I asked him to reconsider that if he was going to continue living in Texas and he said he had never even thought about that. Duh! Anyway, he said he used to go swimming in a lake and the dog would come "rescue" him. He could NOT swim in anything other than a pool if that dog was around because he swam out and herded him back to shore. Too funny! Mine would stand on the shore and bark at me until I came back, but they aren't getting in that water!!!

Newfies take their water work very seriously. We belong to the Great Lakes Newf Club. We know one dog who gently reaches into the bathtub, grasps his owner's wrist, and tries to pull her out of the tub! We know another one who has to be put inside if the kids are going down to the lake because he keeps them on the shore and won't allow them to be anywhere near the water! They are really bred for it.

Yep! Danes were bred to hunt boars and hogs, but Apollo doesn't do that either. I think now their sole "job" is that of couch potato!!! :)

Gee, I'm a total dope today! I'm sorry, I forgot you were Apollo's momma! I remembered that Jamie is Apollo's momma, but forgot that texasgarden is Jamie! Duh! And of course I remember Apollo, you just don't forget big dogs!

Well it's easy to remember Sylvia is sylvi74 b/c it your real name is part of your DG name. And, like you, I always remember the "moms and dads" of big dogs!

So how is it going with the pond? Has it been warm enough to work in water in your part of the state? I saw some parts of Texas were supposed to get snow!

Oh I haven't started! We had one good weekend (last weekend) then it got cold again. Grrr! We dipped down to freezing in some areas last night but not in the immediate DFW area. It's warming up today and supposed to be in the 70s for the next few days. But we have been getting rain so I don't want to drain the water out and clean just to have it fill up with rain again. Besides, I am cold natured so it needs to be warmer than the 70s to get me to mess around in my shady backyard in the water! I am going to order the stuff I need this week so it will be ready to go the second the weather will cooperate. The snow in Texas is normally up in the Amarillo area. We are considered "north Texas" but it's more north central. Amarillo is in the "cold" area of the state. We get snow maybe once a year and it is never in March.... knock on wood. :)

Never say never, Jamie!

I know, I know, that's why I'm knocking on wood!!!!

Oh, thats what I felt on my forehead!

HA! Good one!