Nice winter subject to ponder on.
I have four KOI now in my first pond (10" X 40") from Walmart, they survived and have grown to about 10 inches.
Now I want to raise a few fry. Lots of questions!!!! How? Grading, Keepers. Lessons learned ETC.
Need everyone to teach each other.
Raising KOI
As a keeper of koi and indoor goldfish, my first suggestion is get some bigger ponds. My pond is 700 gallons, and the one thing I would change would be to build it bigger. I have several indoor tanks from 5 to 100 gallons. This is one time in life where bigger really is better.
There is a great book called Koi Kichi by Peter Waddington. He is a British koi fancier. See if the library can interloan it for you, it is a pricey book.
I have raised goldfish babies but not koi. I'm afraid that the biggest lesson I learned was that my baby fish were beautiful to me, but they were just mixed breed goldfish to fish stores. If you want to raise quality koi, you will have to start from better stock than walmart carries. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, if you are like me you LOVE those fish, but it really is true.
I hope my 2 cents is some help to you. Keep us updated!
This message was edited Jan 19, 2005 11:26 AM
My pond is 1500 gal's. I love the Koi for their colors. I am dipping out the Goldfish some spring and give them away. Got a good 200 FRY and all of them are goldfish.LOL
Will take them down to the bait store for fishing for strippers.
Will try with the walmart brand to start with.
No 200 doller fish yet until I learn the ropes first.
OH! I thought you said your pond was 10x40 inches, which is way too small. You must have 10x40 feet! No wonder you can keep fish in it! Sorry for my confusion. So you have experience with baby fish, that's great. I guess just keep those koi well fed and let nature do her thing.
That author is Peter Waddington, by the way. I had it wrong earlier.
This message was edited Jan 19, 2005 11:27 AM
Not koi but carp nonetheless. I raise goldfish. I only have two baby koi, too young to breed, lol.
There are about a zillion ways to do it- and most of them work.
This is just my two cents. (I'm not an expert.)
First you need to check and see what's selling- (if you wanna make money off them) and what always sells. Alot of people like good clear markings- not muddy looking fish.
Now, you can breed beautiful koi from walmart- but it might be a bit harder than starting with known lines. (check ebay for Koi- they have what seems to be very good deals.)
Right now I am breeding for 4 specific things.
Health,Markings,Size and Finnage. (you can breed for whatever you want- it's up to you. But these are good guidelines.)
My ponds are very simple to look at- but a healthy pond is extremely complex in it's workings. I do not bother with crystal clear water. I allow algae to grow. The fish eat it as well as the invertabrates that live in it. (green water) This is perfect for feeding new fry too.
I have plants on all three levels of my ponds. Bottom, Middle and Top.
I have a flat of aquatic grass my fish spawn in- (you can use a clean fish safe mop head and it works beautifully.) then I simply remove the whole flat (the eggs are stuck to it) and place them in a small baby pond. (a kiddy pool) I allow those fish to grow until they show their colors/finnage. Then I seperate the ones I want. These fish go into their own pond or aquarium. (baby fish in aquariums- no heater) Carp will soon outgrow most aquariums and are coldwater fish.
After they grow and start showing more characteristics I cull them again. I'm brutal and keep only what I know I want to eventually breed. (the rest become dog/cat/bird-etc food.)
You'll know for sure if you wanna breed fish after your first spawn, lol- carp are very prolific.
My fish get catfish food. I get a 50 pound bag for 10.00 It works and they are healthy. Colours are not harmed on this diet. I also give them fruit and veggies- but not enough to really count. The ponds support themselves. I used to fuss over clear water but I'm over that now, lol. The water is clear enough you can see the fish fine- but it also offers shade from the sun and predators.
You will probably need more than one pond if you plan to breed Koi- they get huge and are messy fish. Also, I've heard it is hard to keep plants in a pond with Koi- they like to eat them. lol
I use anything that can safely hold fish. Buckets, bowls, glasses- you name it and I've probably used it for fish, LOL.
There's so much more but I'll be darned if I can think of it right now, LOL. Imma watch this thread- it's gonna be a great one!
Hope this helps,
- Jocie.
Jocie I really liked your imput and that is what I was hoping this thread would lead to. I want it to get down to specific's. A Mop head from janitor's supply. Greart Idea. Ted
Glad I could help- Make sure to wash it with HOT water before using it. Alot of mops have a waxy coating- might harm the fish. Don't use soap. :-)
How do you grade and sort KOI. Going thru the fry what is a keeper and what is not? Looked on the net and could not find any thing to use as a guide line. I can understand by looking at some you throw away any thing that is solid color. Right? No blacks or orange. Example I Have several that are variations of black and orange. What do you look at? If buying some how do you tell what to buy without just having carp?
I believe "normal" carp are black and/or olive-grey. But- you can still use those if you want to make your own special strain.
I believe Koi and Goldfish were created by people who saw bits of colour in wild fish- they in turn bred those colours out and we now have our beautiful fish today.
After the fry are fingerling size (a few inches long) is when I do my most brutal culling. Keeping those with the clearest or most unusual markings/body/finnage.
If you're buying Koi- look for what I just stated- good finnage, no deformaties-etc. Don't skip over a beautiful Koi because it has fins that have been nipped off- just make sure it wasnt born like that. I can't explain how to tell the difference though. Sometimes you can't tell.
Alot of people see black as a bad trait- but it can still be worked with. Personally I like the black and white/platinum Koi. :-)
A three step/spot koi/goldfish with clear markings is a sure keeper. At least here it is. ;)
You have a beautiful clear white body- with three clear (orange or red- or whatever colour) markings over the spine. As evenly spaced and draped over the sides as possible.
We also keep our blues and blue gene carrying fish.
How I grade them, hmm...
I guess three catagories.
A. Best. Beautiful finnage and great structure/colour.
B. Good. Has most of the traits as A.
C. Food. I just use them as food what whatever I keep that wants to eat them. Too much work/money would have to go into bringing out the right traits for what I am trying to accomplish. Can also be sold as feeder fish.
Then we have our maybe group-
These are the ones I am not sure about- so they go into their own place and I check them later.
Sometimes I stray from this though- cause I forget what I'm trying to do, LOL. That's why it is good to get them seperated as soon as possible so you have time to remember what you have forgotten, LOL!
Hope this helps!
If I have contradicted/repeated myself- let me know- I have the flu and my heads all swimmy, LOL.
Looking at mine shows that I did not know anything. The one I thought was pretty, Black, white and orange spots all over is not good. Although I do have a fair one . All white butterfly with one light orange spot on the side.. Looks like I need to go shopping again.
No- doesnt mean it is bad!
You like those colors- you can definately breed for them- or breed to bring more of what you want out. Can you post pictures? Butterflies are great. Were breeding for that in my goldfish. Don't know if they call them butterflies though. Got a few fry that look promising. These all started out as walmart and other cheapo stores fish. (normal commets)
Lemme post a picture of mah baby, hehe.
This is a female.
Can 'O' Fish, lol.
Another thing- my sis bought a few feeder fish- one of which shows sure signs of being a butterfly. I've asked her for it- so we shall see, lol.
No telling what she'll throw when she's old enough to breed though.
Thats a nice looking fish.
How do you tell its a female?
Too cold out there to take a picture with them on the bottom.
Will post pictures when they start eating again.
Got to figure a way to trap all of the little ones with out chasing them with a 12" net.
Come breeding time the males normally get bumps on their gills, kind of like pimples. That and the females tend to be rounder.
Sometimes ya gotta chase them, LOL. Might be good to put the net in the water and feed them over it- then quickly lift them out. :-)
Do I see painted toe nails. LOL
Think I will make a minnow trap out of screen wire. Just limit the hole size so as not to catch a big one.
I have had my pond for about 4 years and I love it. It is about 8' x 10-12'. I have several koi and lots of goldfish. My favorite is an imported Blue Koi. Atleast I was promised it was an import. I originally bought 2, but one didn't make it. So far I haven't had any trouble with keeping any of them except for the solid white one's. I do not know why? I have bought about 3, and none have made it. Is there anything special that needs to be done for these?
Also, my koi have bred. I am assuming the blue koi is a male b'cause I have koi fry that have a great deal of blue in them and there's only one other w/ a little blue. And the babies from last summer have a good bit of blue, w/ orane and white. And so have the fancy goldfish and comets. I'm not sure if comets are goldfish, but I just assumed they were.
And is there a specific time that breeding season starts? And I have never put anything in my pond except plenty of waterlily's and other plants, including lots of water hyacinth's and parrot's feather. Should I put a mophead in there at the beginning of spring? Just a clean new one?
It used to drive me crazy whenever the water would get dirty, and once my water got a white milky color. I still do not know what caused that, but I bought a UV Sterilizer and I have 2 pumps, and that seemed to help a great deal. I do let the algae grow, until the brown algae gets out of control.
Sorry to ask so many ?'s but any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Traci
This message was edited Feb 2, 2005 8:04 AM
This message was edited Feb 4, 2005 6:53 AM
Fish and ponds are great! The only thing I have ever read about white koi said that they can be sensitive to too much sun, but I would think as long as there are plants to hide in, that shouldn't be the problem. I had a white koi for about five years, and he did great. Breeding season starts as soon as the water warms up. A mophead makes it easy to collect the eggs, the fish will breed just as happily in the plants but you won't see the eggs as easily. I can't wait for spring! My pond is frozen solid and my fish are indoors!
Hehe- yes, my painted toenails!! They are famous now!! :-))
Minnow trap sounds like a good idea.
Traci,
Sylvia is right- they tend to be sensetive to the sun. But with all your plants providing shade- that souldn't be a problem. Maybe you bought bad fish? I've done that a few times. Or the others might have bullied them to death. It happens.
I believe commet is a term reserved for goldfish. :-)
Mop heads just make it alot easier to harvest the eggs so you can move them. The larger fish will prey on the fry, and sometimes the eggs too.
Spring is normally when they start to breed. It's easy to tell because they get very active- chase each other then the water nearly boils with their movements.
The white water could be anything- contaminants to algae.
We have more than half of the water surface of the ponds covered in floating plants. (thanks to kind DG members that gave me floating plants!) That stuff really multiplies! LOL
Never apologize for asking questions! :-D
Sylvia- your home has been taken over by carp!!! Run for your life! LOL
Yeah, they live in a stock tank in our spare bedroom. They tried to eat one of my Newfs when he leaned in for a drink. My parents won't come over to visit anymore. It's getting pretty serious. Hurry spring!
LOL!!!! Wish I had seen that one!
http://www.ponddoc.com/Topics/KoiGoldfish.htm
Nice site to learn something on Koi
There is a great magazine for koi lovers that will help teach you what to look for in the koi you buy if you want better quality koi. It is http://www.koiusa.com I have had a subscription for many years now and keep all the past issues to look back over them for answers to questions I have.
Another very good site is http://www.koivet.com Hope this helps you get more addicted to the great hobby of keeping koi.
We cull our koi babies several times during the summer. We have to get a crew together to seine net them out of the pond but we make a fun bar-b-que day out of it and now have men saying that is the most fun they have had in their lives. I know I have a great time watching everyone work while all I do is place the food out. :~)
Lani
LOL Pond!
Great links guys. :-D
As for the white koi and the fact that none of them made it the 1st timed I tried and then I got them from a different pet store. I guess I could have just had really bad luck and got bad one's from both places, but makes me wonder. I still plan to try again. B'cause I think they are gorgeous.
Whenever I went out yesterday to check on the pond, I didn't see any of my fish, b'cause I think they were hiding under plants and lots of leaves I should have already gotten out, but w/ these icestorms, I haven't had a chance,. Maybe that will help to keep them a little warmer. The water was clear as a bell! As clear as it has ever been.
But I have one ? that I wondered if anyone else had ever seen this. In the center of my pond there was an odd plant/? growing. If it wern't underwater, the only way I know to describe it is that if it were in hot temp's and in the desert it looked like a starting nub from a cactus. I am assumng it has to be ither algae, or ????? Anyone ever seen anything like this? It is about 7-8 inches tall and just like a cactus looking thing. I'm sure w/o the spikes, but it was as I said 7-8 inches straight up and the top of it is rounded.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. And one more, Do you guys think that from the earlier post feeding them w/catfish food is ok, as long as I added some fruit to thir diet come spring?
And one more ? I have always trusted my pet store because they have always helped me get my problems w/my pond resolved. Whenever I came acoss the Blue ( I mean solid Blue) and was told it wasn;t a domestic but an inport, I really liked that. Do any of you have one? Or does anyone know the name of it.?
Ofcourse underwater you can't tell how beautiful he really is, but when he jumps for food he is spectacular, w/that blue-blue skin!!!!
Thanks,
Traci S
This message was edited Feb 4, 2005 7:03 AM
It is possible he's an import. Blues are sought after- so lucky you!
I said I feed some fruit to my fish- at one time I had a very elaborate diet I prepared for them. It had fish meal, veggies and fruit- along with other ingrediants. I then dehydrated it and fed it to them in flake form. The catfish food is easier and works fine. (cheaper too).
Do you have a picture of the plant youredescribing? It's sounds Sci-Fi!
Maybe it is a rooted algae? Musk Algae. I grow som of that cause it forms nice dense clumps.
christmascactus
Feb 04, 2005
Where do you find or buy catfish food-sorry for the dumb question.
I get ours at the local feed store. :-) Not a stupid question!
christmascactus
Feb 04, 2005
Thanks,Jocie for your help!!
Crimsonotavo,
I'm going out now to see if I can.
Wish me luck!
Traci S
I found a trap at Wally world for 6.95. I can't guarantee you would catch the one you want but otherwise it works well. Jessamine
Good luck!
You're welcome cactus! :-)
Ohh Wally world sells fish traps? Awesome!
You have to look very close off to the right of the center and at the bottom. I hope this is an ok pic. I have several more if you can't make it out.
Once again it looks like an underwater cactus looking thing that is about 6-7 inches tall and rounded on top.
Thanks, And I hope u see io!
And if you look off to the golden rocks and leaves on the left side it is just to the right of that.
Thanks,
Traci
This?
Looks like musk algae to me. Are there any limbs- or is it a mass of "branches" that feel kind of brittle to the touch? Smell some of it- musk algae smells..kind of musky, lol.
Looks like a wintering form of algae. I have seen it like that in our ponds in early spring.
I meant leaves- not limbs, hehe.
Better pictures. I have some of this and love it, hehe.
http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/charpic.html
Got it out of a Dollar Store pond! Had to climb a fence with a rake to get it, hehe. I had permission, lol.
Posted link twice, LOL.
This message was edited Feb 5, 2005 12:17 AM
Crimsonstavo,
Are you pretty sure that is what it is? B'cause it looked nothing like the photo's in those website's. I guess it could be that it just seemed so different. Not any of the photo's showed it to look like a Cactus/cone shape w/ that exact form. There are no leaves or brances, and I am just curious, And I wish you lived closer to help me ID this and to really get a good look for yourself. Should I leave it alone or try to get rid of it? Will it cause more algae prob's?
Thanks so much for your help,
abd you too Lani!
Traci
This message was edited Feb 5, 2005 3:34 AM