New bog question?

Hi, I just put in a new 15,000 gallon pond and decided to make a bog area that is aprox. 10' x 10'. The bog is where the overflow area is and is an avg. of 12' deep with a trench around the inner edge that is 18". It is lined with a pond liner and the opening from the pond to the bog is a be barrier that water flows through but not dirt or solids. So far I have puut a layer of peat moss apox 6" deep and it has been settling for a month.The pond has a net over for leaves but I am letting them fall and settle in the bog. It is not in full shade but after 2:00 pm it will be mostly shady. Since there is free flow between the bog and the pond I am hoping I don't have to worry about stagnant water. What kind of plants can I put in there? Is it OK to add a layer of soil or should I do more peat? Here are a couple of pictures.

Closer shot.

Some ponders refer to the set up you have created as a bog. It isn't a bog but maybe some sort of a veggie filter. Sort of confusing but by practice and definition it doesn't appear you have a bog.

Here's a few definitions which sum it up better than I could-

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

Bog, n. [Ir. & Gael. bog soft, tender, moist: cf. Ir. bogach bog, moor, marsh, Gael. bogan quagmire.] 1. A quagmire filled with decayed moss and other vegetable matter; wet spongy ground where a heavy body is apt to sink; a marsh; a morass.

AND

From Encyclopaedia Britannica-

type of wetland ecosystem characterized by wet, spongy, poorly drained peaty soil. Bogs can be divided into three types: (1) typical bogs of cool regions, dominated by the growth of bog mosses, Sphagnum, and heaths, particularly Chamaedaphne (northern bogs with trees growing on them are often called muskegs); (2) fens, dominated by grasslike plants, grasses, sedges, and reeds; …"

You indicated that, "The bog is where the overflow area is and is an avg. of 12' deep with a trench around the inner edge that is 18". It is lined with a pond liner and the opening from the pond to the bog is a be barrier that water flows through but not dirt or solids."

Problem is the species of plants that are found occurring naturally in bogs that are commonly referred to as "bog" plants will not exactly thrive in your set up. Actual bog plants are co-evolved to deal with little or no drainage and nutrient deprived soil. I'm thinking the water flowing through your set up alone will preclude you from having success with actual bog plants and then there would be the added element of any chemicals you would need to use in the pond and those would pretty much wipe out any traditional bog plants. There are many other wonderfully beautiful plants you can grow in that type of an environment.

You might want to check this link out on bogs here at DG-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/461439/

Veggie filters can be wonderful things! I have one. We just need to use different plant material. If for any reason you decide to block the flow of water in there and swap your peat moss for a sphagnum peat/sand mix, let me know and I can share quite a few resources with you for bog plants. I have acid bogs as well as one fen and BogMan has more than you would believe over at his house.

Best wishes to you.

Thanks, so if I understand you my setup will serve as a type of filter? Cool since I don't use many chemicals in my ponds. In the past they have done more harm than good. At least the peat and the fallen leaves will be a great place for Japanese iris to grow. Thanks so much for your reply about my quasi-bog. lol

Lo

By the way... that is one heck of a knock down gorgeous pond set up! It looks as if it is set up right in the middle of a forest.

Me personally, I think you are going to end up removing all of the peat moss you have and replacing it with pea gravel as you might end up with some water quality issues but that would be more for someone else to comment on.

There's a member out there named adavisus. He/she can help with ideas for plants for you. I don't know if you are interested because some people won't plant anything other than native plants... but you did mention Japanese iris so I am thinking this suggestion is ok soooo... have you ever seen micro cattails? They don't grow much taller than a few feet and they can take some shade and I don't see any way they can escape anywhere from your pond. You do have to be careful planting other plants too close to them or they will jump pots. Those might be kind of neat in a grouping somewhere to add contrast to your Japanese Iris. I actually think you have a much broader selection of plants available to you because you aren't an actual bog and what's to say you don't section off the center and cut off the flow of water through it and create a sphagnum peat bog within a pea gravel veggie filter attached to a pond. You have a lot more to work with because of your design. You might also want to take a look at aquatic utricularias. I have my eye on a few beautiful bloomers for me and they can take shade although they prefer sun to the best of my knowledge. This going to be fun!

Thanks I appreciate the compliment. We put this in last month and it is the largest pond we have ever done. Of course there are some things we would do different if we had only known. lol But is'nt that the way it always is for this type of project? As for filters the waterfall is a biological filter that has lava rock and quilting batting as the medium and with the right plant cover it should be adequate.
It's funny you mentioned water quality because of the peat. That was an issue I wondered about. Does it discolor the water or cause algae growth? I thought the peat would be good for the Japanese iris, which I have a pretty awesome collection if I do say so. But I would have to bring the water level down in the winter because they don't like wet feet in the cold. I could put Louisiana iris in there but they might get out of hand.
We have some trees and pruning to do this winter. You might say we are tree rich around here most of our land is woods since it is rolling and not suitable for pasture.
You're right this is going to be fun. Since the winter is my favorite time to build beds and landscape I will have plenty to keep me gardening year round.

Loretta

PS What's a utricularias?

You did all of that in one month? Good job now come and visit me and bring your crew! Just teasing with ya!

You are going to have more issues than just tea colored water with the peat moss. Best to get somebody who can outline potential water chemistry issues for you. I suspect you will be removing it and replacing it with pea gravel to save your sanity. Much debate in this area and I suspect people are being silent because they were afraid to offend you. I looked at your post and all I could think of was you buying bog plants and losing hundreds and hundreds of dollars and I couldn't keep my mouth shut. Been there and done that already and lost mucho $$$ so I figured why let somebody else go down the "not so primrose path" with their wallet.

At only 12-18" depth, you could self contain your iris and snuggle their pots down in pea gravel and they should be fine. I have blue flag iris and that's what I do with them.

So, "What's a utricularias?" I am cheating right now because I cut and pasted the list of Utricularias out of a personal e-mail sent to me from a friend but you can cut and paste the names into a search engine such as google to get a feel for what the plants look like. Utricularias are Bladderworts and they get some pretty beautiful blooms! By the way, if you didn't guess already... my friend needs a self help course in self control as he WANTS all of these Bladderworts and I have no doubt he will succeed in acquiring every last one. Some are terrestrial and some are aquatic. The one that I have my eye on is Reversed Bladderwort (Utricularia resupinata). Back to the Utricularias, I was just thinking to myself that with your southern location, these insectivorous plants would not only be beautiful but functional. They're way cool! Look them up and let me know what you think! Should you think they are butt ugly, you won't hurt my feelings.

Horned Bladderwort Utricularia carnuta - Most Wanted
Hiddenfruit Bladderwort Utricularia geminiscapa
Humped Bladderwort Utricularia gibba (Utricularia biflora) - Most Wanted
Swollen Bladderwort Utricularia inflata - Most Wanted
Southern Bladderwort Utricularia juncea - Most Wanted
Common Bladderwort Utricularia macrorhiza
Lesser Bladderwort Utricularia minor
Dwarf Bladderwort Utricularia olivacea - Most Wanted
Little Floating Bladderwort Utricularia radiata
Reversed Bladderwort Utricularia resupinata - Most Wanted
Striped Bladderwort Utricularia striata (Utricularia fibrosa) - Most Wanted
Zig-Zag Bladderwort Utricularia subulata - Most Wanted

By for now!

Thanks, the peat will be removed this weekend. It won't go to waste. The longer I live it seems the less I know so not offended at all. This pond already blew the garden budget for the next year. Heck I might as well tell the truth. I blew the budget years ago. lol Any costly mistake I can avoid is a good thing.
Don't have to know the science behind the chemistry but would be interested in learning about if someone has the time.
I'll check out the bladderworts even though the name does'nt conjure up visions of something pretty. lol I will let you know what I think.

Hmmm, bladderwort isn't exactly a flattering sounding word that conjures up visions of loveliness now is it? I never thought of it that way until you mentioned it.

Here you go-
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_profile.cgi?symbol=UTRE

http://www.botany.wisc.edu/wisflora/scripts/detail.asp?SpCode=UTRRES

Not the greatest photos. They remind me of rare orchids.

I tried to post some of this info yesterday...but my connection was lost #%#% and so was my post and I didn't have time to repost. Equilibrium didn't mention that the peat while it will color your water of tea, it will not promote algae because of the acidity and because it is very nutrient poor.

I think bladderworts are very cool plants and really love them. When on vacation to the Upper peninsula of Michigan I got to see 3 different species either growing or in bloom. I will give you both a word of caution. I've found them to be rather short lived. I've had Utric. gibba and U. vulgaris, both aquatic and I grew them in my rain barrel. they proliferated and grew like weeds living on the water fleas (that I introduced) and mosquito larvae(I didn't). Anyway they have a tendency to just up and vanish. Even my botany professor friend has trouble keeping them going for more than a couple of seasons, and he's been growing bog plants since the '50s.

Ohhhhh...
I stillllllll want a U! Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and mine will live for years!

We had big thunderboomers tonight and I lost my connection a few times too. I hate that.

Thanks Bogman, I hate when I reply to something in detail and gets lost. I took some of the peat out but to get the rest need to bring the water level down. Would still like to hear why peat messes up the pond when you get a chance.
So are these bladderwort things pretty high dollar or can a gal try them out and still put a few tanks of gas on the credit card. lol
We have a storm coming. It was one of those perfect fall days, around 70F, partly sunny, and breezy. Then tonight a full moon, it don't get much better than that. About an hour or so ago the wind picked up and I can smell a good drenching heading this way.
Nice chatting with ya'll!

Loretta

Sadly for you and I, many of these plants are right up there with orchids price wise. I don't know how much you know about orchids but they can soar into the hundreds per plant. And the Utrics are difficult to locate and... this is the wrong time of year for us to start one out. There! Aren't I a big fat jerk! Here I go and give you a link to a gorgeous looking plant and get you hooked and now you are sitting there all dressed up with no plant and a nice big pond in need of some dressing up!

But, good news for you! I have a friend named Harry. That list I posted really was his personal wish list from an e-mail he had sent to me the day I posted it so I'm thinking maybe you and I should sit back for the ride because once Harry determines he wants something... Harry gets it. It is only a matter of time before he finds it at a good price. If you pm me, I will get you in touch with Harry. Harry's a trip but a very good soul.

Say, are you one of those gals who sits in front of her computer surfing online nurseries with a credit card in hand who is armed and dangerous too?

Hi Shadowgirl... Lemme try my hand at this, " Would still like to hear why peat messes up the pond when you get a chance". I know you are wrestling with removing the peat and the fallen leaves that you wanted in that area and it most assuredly is a daunting task removing and replacing it but you will never be able to establish any semblance of balance with your current set up as it isn't for that type of an application.

The problem is that peat. The peat is quite anaerobic and isn't capable of filtering much of anything anyway. A pond bog/veggie filter (call it what you want) isn't supposed to have the same components as a bog that is designed for actual native bog plants. A pond bog/veggie filter is only supposed to be pea gravel or large diameter sand media that is planted with traditional aquatic or marginal plants which is the direction you are now moving. The peat will stain your pond water with tanins (that tea color so many people find repugnant) and will also make your water acidic. That peat is going to continue to decay which will repeatedly reduce your ph. This means you will be constantly testing your water and struggling with adjusting that darn ph which is going to make you want to pull your hair out. Test kits are not cheap.

If you have a biofilter, it will be on double time trying to act as both a mechanical filter and a biofilter. Way too much strain on a biofilter to have to try to clean what is coming out of that peat/debris mix.

In a nutshell, you would be getting some pretty wild readings for your ph as well as perpetually tea stained water and you would be very unhappy in the longrun.

So If I wanted to build a bog garden I would need a space how big and how deep?
and filled with?
peat?
sphagnum?
sand?

I'm talking beginner size...LOL

Hi! You would want sphagnum peat. It's readily available. Here's a link to start up directions. Size of the bog you create is irrelevant. BogMan got me started with two 15 gallon planters that I recessed in the ground that were about 14" deep. Well, one thing led to another and to another and now we are excavating for the big momma bog that will be larger than a built in swimming pool. I caught the bog bug but BogMan has now caught ponditis. I call that fair, would't you?

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/461439/

I'm there
thanks!

Thanks EQ, actually removing it at this point is pretty easy. I took out part of it today and tomorrow will bring down the water level and take out the rest. Need to change out the barrier between it and the pond anyway. I already have a net to keep leaves out.

Loretta

Ugh, I remember removing mine. It was water logged and heavy and I whined and moaned the entire time having my own personal pity party. Hmmm... any chance we could get you infected with the bog bug and you could set that wonderful peat aside in an old kiddie pool so you could try your hand at a few bog plants next spring? I'm told bog bug and ponditis go hand in hand like a good marriage.

LOL bite your tounge EQ. You ever noticed how folks like to find new converts for their obsessions? Of course I do have 4 kiddie ponds that held the waterlilies until we could put in the pond. However that is not my style, I have to go whole hog, there in lies my downfall. lol Luckliy the peat will not go to waste. The azaleas and hydrangeas will love it. Right now I only have about a half a dozen projects in varying stages of completion going on but when do I not. Guess I have a short attention span. My plan is to get the place cleaned up, all the plants in the ground and the pots stashed away, We have worked our rear-ends off since we moved here last winter. Mark (DH) and I did the pond ourselves except on the day we installed the liner and did not even threaten divorce one time. A bog right now might be more than the poor man can take. lol He has already said he is afraid one day my plants will grow over him and I won't even notice.

Spoil sport!

Excuses excuses! ;)

Yes but you have peaked my interest and I fear it will only be a matter of time before I am all "bogged" down. lol