I haven't gotten any response on my gardening club wesite so I thought I would copy and paste it in here. New to DG and love it so far!
The link below is to my webshots album. I have a few pictures of the pond in question out there if you would like to see what I am talking about first...
Ok, this thing has been the biggest problem for me since buying this house over 2 years ago. At first, I wanted to use it... then, after seeing that it leaks veeery slowly due to a crack in the bottom I changed my mind. On top of that, keeping the magnolia leaves skimmed out would be a year-round chore. Even in the summer it drops seed pods and leaves... they don't call them "trash trees" for nothing. So, we were going to fill it in and build a deck over it. Now I am changing my mind again. Typical woman I guess.
Here are my questions:
1. Do you think the location (under a magnolia tree) is going to make it more trouble than it's worth? No right or wrong answer here- just a "what would you do" question. My husband suggesting attaching a very thin mesh screen under the canopy to keep leaves out.
2. In a pond this size is a filter necessary? I have seen ponds smaller than mine w/ no filter and they aren't all green and nasty and fish live in it fine. BTW- it's about 2 and a half feet deep at the lowest point. You can see the length and width in the pictures. I am afraid there is too much big debris (waxy leaves and seedpods) to clog a filter. Plus, the power source would be an issue.
3. And the main question- there is a crack in the bottom. It isn't huge, but it's there. After a heavy rain, it takes almost 2 weeks to drain all the way, which made us dub it "the sess pool". If we clean the mud and leaves out of the bottom, the time reduces to about a week. So, if we wanted to use it as a pond, it would clearly not stay filled up. Can I just pour more concrete into the bottom and seal the crack or would it have to be removed (the bottom anyway) and re-poured? THAT is the kind of work I'm not willing to put into this. If it can be patched that's fine. I know people get cracks in swimming pools and they are just patched so I assume I could do the same here. Also, I can't just put in a pond liner b/c of the decorative rocks around the edges. It would need to be able to hold water "as is" with no lining of any sort. Should I use some sort of masonry sealer if we do go forward with it or is that not necessary? Would it hurt fish to do that?
Sorry this is such a long post! Thanks for taking the time to read/look at pics/respond.
Jamie
http://community.webshots.com/user/jamielaws
Pond quandry... should I or not?
I looked at all of your photos. What a great design. I loved the way it was aligned with the outer wall of your home and how the front of the pond was sculpted. Your deck idea sounds absolutely wonderful.
A few sweeps with a net and those floating leaves would be no more. Also too, this is a tough time of year for everyone. Leaves happen. I'd pass on a skimmer for a pond that size in favor of an efficient pond vac (many DIY designs available for little or no cost) and a standard net. The vac I use is a kiddie pool vac from WalMart for under $20. It works quite well. Your pond is so compact that you would easily be able to place temporary netting over the top of it for the few weeks the magnolia is dumping on you. Personally, I think the pond's desirability is increased ten fold being that it is under the magnolia. Trees overhanging ponds just seem to go hand in hand.
Is a filter necessary? Yes and no. If you are only interested in aquatic plants, no and you can purchase mosquito dunks to use in the pond. I do this for several of my ponds that have no fish. The mosquito dunks are, in my opinion, totally harmless to all life forms except mosquito larva. Pity those critters can't survive with a mosquito dunk floating around in the water. The dunks last a decent length of time and I would suspect one per month would be fine throughout the season.
Your pond is not large enough for koi. It is large enough for a few comets and a host of other species but not koi. I'm thinking it looks as if you have about 150-200 gallons but my volume guesstimate could be way off base. If you want fish, I think a biofilter would be in the best interests of any fish you might want to put in. Bio-filters are affordable and I am thinking there are several models out there well under a $100 that would fit the bill but then you could also DIY for considerably less money. A biofilter could very easily be integrated into your design. It could be recessed into the ground or placed under the wrap around deck you mentioned.
To the best of my knowledge, your crack can be patched. You could also easily add an epdm liner and the edge would not be all that difficult to landscape to hide the liner. I sort of like edges that have rock or stone around them but a plain concrete edge has its place too as think of all the plants that could be chosen for around that edge that would really stand out.
I really think you are blessed to have bought that house complete with an existing pond even if it does need a little tweeking.
Thank you! That's why I have been hesitant to go ahead and fill it in. I mean, it's not as if someone just dug a hole and filled it in with concrete. Whoever built that pond knew what they were doing. Our house is 80 years old and in a historic district. It's obvious to me that the person who did all the DIY inside the house did NOT build that pond as we have some crazy, messed up stuff to fix inside. :)
All I want as far as fish is a few comets or something. I know it isn't big enough for Koi. My aunt and uncle have a pond about a third of the size of mine, but it's about 3 and a half to 4 feet deep. They have several fish and some plants, but no filter or pumps whatsoever. That's why I thought maybe I could go filterless. My husband suggested the same thing as far as hiding the pump equipment, etc. under the edge of the deck. He also thought we could just clean it out real good and repour the bottom. I keep thinking about swimming pools as far as a liner goes. You don't line pools and they are made of concrete, so I was hoping we could get away with NOT lining. Those rocks around the edges are firmly set into the concrete edges so they would have to be knocked out with a sledge hammer or something so that the liner could be pulled up over the edge. Unless I am missing something here. Oh, and that tree dumps leaves and seed pods all year long. We have it fertilized by an arborist twice since moving in here and that has helped. No one has taken care of this house/yard for years so we had lots of neglect to make up for!
Oddly enough, we put an entire package of those mosqutio larve floats in that pond (that amount should have lasted us a year!) and it didn't work. The top of the water looks like it's moving b/c of all the larve. GROSS! Someone suggested we pour gasoline in the water but that seems dangerous, and besides, our two dogs drink out of it. :(
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate it!
Jamie
Your pond is wonderful and as Equilibrium said, has great potential. I hope you'll be able to salvage it. A big welcome to Dave's Garden, Jamie.
Thanks for the welcome- I'll let y'all know how it turns out! Jamie
"texasgarden"....... WELCOME! There is always room for one more. You'll find DG the Nicest, Friendliest, most Helpful group on the net anywhere!!!
I just started *really* reading this Water Garden Forum with much interest since I am working on getting our pond winterized.
I, too, have a magnolia right at the pond edge, but don't mind skimming the leaves. Don't consider that too much work at all!! It really gives me a chance to observe the fish, since they like to follow the net around, as I skim. Of course, I live in NJ and our magnolia sheds all its leaves in the fall, so no problems in the winter time.
The folks that I deal with and go to for advice (besides DG, that is) is Lilypons Water Gardens. They are also extremely friendly and generous with helpful advice. They have the expert answers! Would suggest that you give them a try.
My fish pond is pretty large, built by my father...years ago, and it holds about 1,500 gal. of water, and nary a leak in all that time! It is of concrete with wire reenforcement built into it.
http://www.lilypons.com/texas.htm
839 FM 1489 Koomey Road
Brookshire, Texas
What brand of mosquito dunks are you using if you don't mind my asking? I use one dunk and let it float and it lasts at least a month.
As far as dumping gasoline in it... ouch, not a great idea for too many reasons to go into. What you can do is drain it completely and waste the contents into your front lawn for now. Ponding season is coming to a close anyway and we enter the planning stages for next spring. Oh what fun!
I really don't think you will need to repour the bottom of the pond.
Taking a break from the yard. I got to thinking I never did try to help give you information on fixing that crack so you could get cracken with making a decision on which way you ultimately want to go. I hope you ultimately opt for keeping the pond.
You know, I should have posted this link-
http://www.raycrete.com/application_pondcrack.htm
I am thinking this might be a viable option for you. My parents had a concrete pond at their old home and they used something very similar to repair a huge crack. It held up for at least a few years but then they moved to a much smaller more manageable home. I have no idea if it is still holding up or not but it wasn't one of those fixes where you had to fix it again in 3 months.
There is a product called GatorGard which might be worth a looksee however I don’t know anyone who has ever repaired concrete using this system. The other issue is that I don't think you can do it yourself. I am pretty sure you have to hire one of their people to come out and apply but you do get a 25 year guarantee and you do get your choice of color. I am thinking this is going to be expensive.
http://www.gatorgard.com/
There are other spray in pond liners but I have no idea which companies manufacture them.
This site it worth a read-
http://www.backyardponds.com/advice/repairs.html
I had heard that repairing concrete with cement wasn’t ever deemed a permanent repair but they offered other comments which were appropriate to your situation.
If it were my concrete pond in need of repair, I think I would seriously take a look at liquid epdm which is painted on and you can buy this yourself and apply it yourself. I don't believe you get a color choice so it would be back to the basic black of preforms and standard epdm liner-
http://www.epdmcoatings.com/
Hope this helps!
Wow. That Raycrete seems to describe my situation exactly AND answers my question regarding toxicity to fish. The Epdm site has a picture of a pond, so I assume you can use it for that. But I sent them an email question anyway since their site focuses mainly on roofs and such. I will compare prices/how long it lasts and decide what to do. The crack in mine is MUCH smaller than the one described on the Raycrete site so I think that would work. The GatorGuard does seem a little pricey! Thank you so much for going to all that trouble to look up the info and post it here. :) BTW- we are leaning towards keeping the pond... I figure I have all winter to research what we need to do.
To answer your question- I don't recall the brand of mosquito dunks we used. It was just whatever they carry at Lowes. But ours was infested with TONS of larve by the time we put them in. It may have just been too much. I think those work best if you toss one in at the beginning of mosquito season rather than after you have a million of the nasty larve in the water. Ugh.
Hi There!
The Raycrete, or similar, was what my parents used and it was still holding when they moved. Getting this information was no big deal as I knew the names of the products already in my head and I had dealt with the same situation a few years ago at my parent's home. The GatorGard is a well respected product but the $$$ with it would be a little difficult for me to stomach when there are viable alternatives out there but some people want that 25 year guarantee and are willing to pay for it. By the way... looks as if you and your husband may very well be digging out that pond and repouring some day... to build a bigger pond. He he he, it is called ponditis!
Don't use gasoline! Try cooking oil, it makes a film on the surface and the larvae drown.
Oh we never even considered really using gasoline- it was just what someone suggested. What a redneck fest that would be- "Dallas couple burn down own home and surrounding houses damaged by flames... trying to kill mosquitoes with gasoline." Kind of like killing a mouse with a shotgun! :)
My husband actually suggested the vegetable oil thing- don't know why we didn't do it as it's a great idea! I have also heard dishsoap will work.
Hey Equ- I don't see us doing that at this house just because we know we want something bigger after he gets out of school and we have kids (God willing). Our other addiction is historic homes, which ours is, but we eventually want one of the HUGE 3 story ones in our neighborhood. We just had to start small. :)
Oh good. I'm sorry if I over-reacted to that idea, but sometimes people do really goofy things that seemed like a good idea at the time! My husband, for example. He tried to get rid of ground nesting bees with gasoline. That was a mess. Hey y'all, watch this. . . !
Good for you for starting Jamie. House size is insignificant. I grew up in a ranch home that had less square footage than my attached garage here where I live now. I drive past that home and am flooded with nothing but happy memories. We had a historic home just before the one we built that we are in now. A friend of ours rented us the movie "Money Pit" and made us watch it. We laughed so hard we cried. I would have to say that restoration can be challenging and no matter how you budget... it always ends up costing 200% more than what one could ever imagine. We survived that home and our marriage is still going strong! If we made it, anybody can do it! Very humbling experience and I would recommend it to anyone. I learned so many invaluable lessons those years we were there. I hope you go for that 3 story home! And toss in a bigger pond while you're at it for ambience!
Oh, at this time of year you might want to consider opting for draining your pond. You have nothing in there dependent upon water for survival other than mosquito larva and spring will be here all too soon! The oil will work wonderfully as long as you don't have fish in a pond.
Sylvi- You didn't overreact! I just wanted to make sure I was clear that we didn't/aren't going to use gasoline! Funny you said that- I just got a "redneck" email joke and it said if you ever hear one say "hey y'all, watch this..." stand back b/c that may well be his last words! Ha!
Equ- Hopefully when I get it filled up and it has fish, the mosquito issue will be no more and I won't need to add the oil! I will also toss in the mosquito dunk early in the season... which here would be about March! We do love our house- it's 1800 sq ft so it isn't tiny or anything. And our big one will have to be something that requires less work than this one did. Man have we learned. Who needs marriage couseling? We survived home remodle... maybe we should get t-shirts made! You are right about the cost- for each project we estimtate veeery carefully what it should be. Then immediately add 20%. Same for time. We have a "add 4 days for each week you think it will take" philosophy. Husband was deployed with the National Guard 2 weeks after we closed on the house in 2002 so I did a lot by myself that first year. I found my only limitation is the brute strenght part. I can hang drywall, tile, refinish wood floors, scrape 80 years of paint off woodwork, till the yard, rip out foundation plants, etc. but there is only so much I can lift on my own. When I refinished my floors, my neighbor (who has daughters my age) was mad that I lugged that big floor sander by myself and even got it out of my truck on my own. He was stunned that I was even able to and asked me how I managed to even lift it. I told him it was like everything else... sheer will! :)
Tee he... what a woman! And you did the blunt of it husbandless! I would have tossed in the towel and put the hosue on the market if my husband hadn't been around to savor the experience side by side with me. Experience is the best teacher isn't it! We tried scraping the way you mentioned. We found that there is a tool out there that looks like a blow dryer that helps when one is scraping off centuries of paint. Oh that was my miracle tool when we were working on all the crown moulding, floor moulding, windows, built in book cases, and basically everything that was covered in wallpaper that had layer after layer of ever dreaded paint underneath. I don't envy you!
The stuff I thought would be easy was the most difficult and vise versa. After a few rounds with the paint solvent stuff that makes the paint bubble up, I gave up and bough one of the "melter" things you mentioned. It did work out much better! Ok, not about ponds anymore so I'll stop! :)
Ok, I have decided to keep the pond for sure so right now I am in planning mode. I decided that the rocks that were set into the concrete around the edges will take away from a "natural" look so I am removing them. And since that was the only reason I didn't want to put a pond liner in, well, my "leak" plan changed. I am going to patch the leak with one of the above mentioned products, and then put in a 40 mil (or maybe I mean .40?) Epdem liner. I am thinking about one of those "Falls" filters or whatever they're called b/c they automatically make a waterfall. To make it cascade, you have to fold in the liner and use that to make the falls look natural. Anyway, that's why I am leaning towards that rather than the paint on kind. However, nothing is set in stone yet. :) That filter works with a skimmer that you put on the other end of the pond and it supposedly will handle the magnolia leaves. We'll see.
Okay, so here is my next question. I know it's irregular shaped so I can't just calculate an exact volume to tell what my gallons are. But I did try to estimate it using a forumla I found online (length x width x depth x 7.4805). My pond is 16' x 9' x 18 inches deep. So I get total gallons of 1615! That can't be right can it? I did take the longest, widest, deepest part of the pond for these measurements, but even rounding down, that is much more than I thought I had. I even plugged in the numbers from the example I found online to make sure I had decimales right and all that. The only other method I know is to fill a bucked and note how long it takes to fill the bucket one gallon. Then fill the pond and time how long it takes. But I don't WANT to fill it up right now- I just want to make my plans over the winter. Based on the pictures I posted at the beginning of this thread, does someone want to venture an opinion on whether or not 1600 gallons is even in the ballpark of "reasonable?" It just seems like a lot to me...
Thanks!
Jamie
This message was edited Oct 24, 2004 4:01 PM
Oh Jamie! I'm so glad you are keeping the pond.
I can't help you guesstimating volume. I couldn't help myself. You are going to laugh but I determined volume on some irregularly shaped ponds by filling the small ones up one 5-gallon bucket at a time. I know, I know... considerably more sophiticated means by which to calculate volume but you are going to have to get help from somebody else or revert to the "Lauren" method of volume calculation. Pathetic, yes. Will you get a decent idea of how much volume you have, yes. I will stick my .02 in and say that your pond does not look as if it is 1600 gallons but I've been wrong so many times before I stopped keeping track. My guess is under 1000.
My husband has a formula at work which utilizes length x perpendicular measurements taken at intervals but maybe I am not getting what he said correct. You also have a shelf to calculate into your equation. It didn't sound all that complicated. I asked him to e-mail it to me. He said he would photo copy it and bring it home. Not that he can ever remember to do things such as this but if he does manage to remember, do you have a fax machine I could send it to?
There are water measuring gauges that screw on to your hose and count gallons as the water runs. I have no idea how much they cost, might be expensive. What kind of water meter do you have? Could you write down the numbers on it, fill the pond, and then see how the numbers have changed to calculate the volume? Just a thought.
Didn't know about the hose attachment- great suggestion! I don't know what our water meter does- I assume it measures in gallons since that's what the bill comes to me measured in.
Equ- I'm assuming you're Lauren?! :) I guess great minds think alike. I was going to fill my one gallon watering can with the hose and see how long that takes. Then, put the hose in the empty pond w/o changing the water pressure of course (don't turn it up or down). If I time the filling of the pond and compare that with how long it took to fill a one gallon container, I should have an idea how many gallons are in the pond. Right? Oh, my husband is an engineering major and works part time for the engineering department of a company here. I made the mistake of telling him what I did and that boy was drawing diagrams, busting out the graphing calculator, etc. He is so funny! Anyway, he came up with everything from 900 gallons to 1400. Ha! There is also a saline method but I don't want to do all that. Too lazy! I mainly wanted to know b/c I am pricing pumps and filters.
Thanks for the help!
Well, my husband eyeballed your pond and guessed it at about 800 to 1000 gallons but then he said not to count on that as he hadn't dealt with any of this in about 30 years so I didn't add that he had taken a stab at your volume. When I looked at the photo, I was thinking around 1000 gallons. You'll have to let us all know what it actually is when you figure it out. Maybe we could start a contest of "Guess the volume in Jamie's pond". The closest person gets the honor of coming out and helping you set up but the runner up is welcome to come on over too!
And yes Jamie, I am Lauren. Equilibrium is a user name my husband goes by at his techie site. I wanted him to be able to remember my user name if he stopped in to look at posts here so I took his. No way for him to forget who his wife is this way. Not exactly the most creative user name selection process.
I'd think the best way to go would be the hose attachment as you could use it in the future for water changes and such. If it is somewhat affordable. I can't imagine such a device costing all that much but then what do I know.
Check out pump and filter prices at AZ ponds on line. And, you can call them on the phone and they will take the time to answer your questions.
I like that game idea Lauren- but I think it's one where no one will WANT to be the winner! Ha! Well, once I find out I will post a new thread and make it a game. I will give the length, width and depth and of course show the pictures. So the game will be to account for the shelf and irregular shape, then decide what you think the total gallons are. I do agree- if it's fairly cheap I will go with the hose attachment simply b/c I want to know for sure. I guess I can do the "bucket" method too and see how close they are. Oh, and check my water meter before and after. Man, being lazy AND a psycho control freak just aren't compatable sometimes! :)
Thanks for the pond supply info- I will check them out. I checked Drs. Foster and Smith but the carry like one or two filter/pump sets and the one I would be interested in was almost $1100! OUCH! :)
Hmmm, best to post a question and start a new thread and try to find a work around if at all possible. I know for a fact that price of $1100 can be easily slashed in half. There are a few members who are virtually expert at DIY and they could easily walk you through it.
In the interim, check out this site just for the heck of it-
http://www.azponds.com/
Saved that link to my favorites. Thanks! More in my budget for sure!
I don't know how big your crack is but at Home Depot they a product that you dip the end of your tools in. It hardens like rubber but not rock hard. If you poured it in the crack it might seal it up. The best part is that it only cost 6.00 per can so even if you needed a couple it is affordable. Especially if you decide WG it is not for you and remove it. If it gets all shade you won't be able to do the usual pond plants, like waterlilies. Maybe someone else could tell you about shade plants, I am not familiar about WG in the shade. But you should have less problems with algae. It is very easy and inexpensive to do a biological filter and the sound of water running is nice. Even with mosquito dunks I still had some problems with the larva but fish will help with that. Also I don't know if you have cats or coons around there but with that sloping edge your fish might disappear unless they have a real good place to hide. A net could help with that as well as the leaves. You can buy one for a pond that is 11" x 11" for about 15.00 on Ebay. Good Luck!
If you're interested, we did start on the pond project! I have a new thread to chronicle our progress.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/518725/