H. cardiphylla-Carol Noel

I'm not sure of the spelling it's one of the plants I purchsed while in Florida last year. I thought as long as you are in Australia perhaps you can find out about this plant, if it is for real. The leaves are definitely cordate, coming to an abrupt tip. Some have wavy edges, the leaves are granny Smith apple green from the central nerve it shows three set of veins branching out from themain nerve it has a husky vein of just under1/4 " Carol I hope you don't mind, I know where you are in Australia, and I really shouldn't intrupt your vacation time. It only seems that the young fresh leaves are wavy, the old ones are not. It has a rachis at this time, but no signs of developing the flowers. I can't find a listing of this one yet. Thanks,

Hi Carol Noel , I think I found the name, mine was a matter of mispelling. Got it now, thank you. Norma

Norma....what was it? What did you find out?
Marcy

No worries, NOrma...H. cardiophylla...subject of tomorrow's conversation at breakfast before we start work in the shadehouses.....

Hoya cardiophylla Merr. was published in the "Philippine Journal of Science 28(30): 310 (1920). It's type (Ramos & Pascasio BS #35160) is housed in US Herbarium (Smithsonian). I have seen it and have a set of photomicroscopic pictues of its flower parts.

I bought cuttings of a hoya sold by west coast and Hawaiian growers when the "name" was introduced by them back in the 1990s. At first I had no reason to doubt its authenticity because the leaves were, indeed more or less as described by Merrill but they didn't stay that way long. They began to grow. They got longer and longer and in a couple of months looked no different than all the other clones of Hoya incrassata I had been sent from the Philippines by Dexter Heuschkel. I still wasn't suspicious so didn't get out my file on H. cardiophylla for further checking until the flowers bloomed and I got photomicroscopic pictures of them. Sure enough, Both of the cuttings I'd been sent were just two more cuttings of Hoya incrassata.

When I got out my Hoya cardiophylla file, here is what I found:

Leaves of it are smaller than on those two cuttings I bought. The type specimen shows quiet thick stems but very slender and extremely dark petioles. The veins are arranged pinnately, On the type specimen, they appear fairly conspicuous but sunken on top; someone raised on the bottom. That is in the dried stage. They may not be noticeable on fresh leaves, however, Merrill said they were, in the last sentence of his publication (this in the English part) he said, "A species well characterized by its broadly ovate, rather prominently cordate, shortly and sharply acuminate, conspicuously and laxly reticulate leaves."

The leaves on the two sets of cuttings I bought did not fit that description.

Unless you were sold a different species than what was sold to me, you do not have Hoya cardiophylla. The one in Mr. Kloppenburg's book is definitely not Hoya cardiophylla. It is the same species I bought mislabeled as that. -- Just another clone of Hoya incrassata and not the most colourful one either! Look at the leaves of his plant -- hardly a vein visible and you can't see any cordate leaf bases either. Plus that, the petioles are the same diamter as the stalks.

Another difference in Mr. K.'s picture. The flowers are reflexed. Merrill said (in English part of his description), "Corolla rotate." He added, "Tips more or less inflexed."

If anyone is interested, I can make Xerox copies of the type specimen, Merrill's original description and a sheet comparing the flower parts of the flowers of the plant I bought and those from the type specimen. You must be able to accept rather large files.

Chris Burton

Marcy what I found was that the tag the vender put on was misspelled or I couldn't read it properly, it wasn't my writting. Mine matches the descriptiion exactly. It is a very vigorous grower. I live the cordate leaves, It will need more light I think to flower, the flowers don't seem to exciting however. Norma

No wonder I couldn't find it. It wasn't spelled correctly. Now we know why spelling is so important. Norma

Marcy, sorry typo error, it should read I like the leaves. Now I'm going to do what CB suggest, look it up in what books I do have. I think I may have the type sheets as well. The leaves are the correct shape, but the petiole are large like the vine. The leaves may be too large but not the young ones, I don't have measurementsl, but some species vary so much depending on the clone you have. I'll check it out further, CB has told me what to look for, thanks, Norma

Norma...I have brought back a H. cardiophylla from David Liddle...it is a clone from Sweden, with impeccable "papers"....David 99% sure it is the correct one. Of course, only flowers will tell.

Carol

Thank you, I wait to hear about your observations of this plant, Norma

Just how does one define "impeccable papers?" I've never seen a hoya that originated with papers of any kind, much less impeccable.ones. I have a bet. You don't have Hoya cardiophylla!

The only "papers" I'd consider important or "impeccable" are the original name publication and, even more important, the type specimen, which cannot be obtained from Sweden because it is in US Herbarium in Washington, DC. It is Ramos and Pascasio's BS-35160.

This name was published in the Philippine Journal of Science vol. 17, page 310 in 1921 per Index Kewensis ---- my notes show that the publication I copied it from was dated 1920.. Merrill published it in Latin as required by the Code but, unlike most such publications, he included a complete English language translation.

Since David Liddle's collecting has not included the Philippines, where this is labeled, I'm sure that the hoya he has so labeled is the same one distributed by California and Hawaiian growers. That hoya is NOT Hoya cardiophylla.

My offer of copies of the original description, a Xerox of the type specimen and pictures of flower parts of both the true Hoya cardiophylla and the phony sold as that, need only e-mail me. I offered before but no one was interested enough to do so and some claimed that they knew what they had was correct because it matched my description! All I can say is: FANTASTIC!!!! Fact is, I never wrote a description that one could compare their plant with and make an identity!

Chris Burton

Carol,
I would be very interested in your plant. I have both, H. incrassata and the one labeled as H. cardiophylla. They sure don't look the same to me, but I'm a beginner. I'm waiting for the flowers. Now I'm more sure than ever that they are not the same. I must have the right one.


How does one know where the other has traveled? Carol where have you traveled and collected.
Some make claims that they have gone here and there, and collected, or grown whatever, when they really don't, and haven't. How would any one know?

Did you have fun working with David Liddle, I bet you could write a book on your experience. Why don't you, It would be interesting to know what you have learned, all the little tricks of the trade. Does he indeed grow all of his own plants? Or does he have them shipped in from other growing grounds, Thailand perhaps? Just courious, that all.

I actually had to put the heater in the hot house already, the temperatures have been dropping down to 55F+ at night. I just didn't want to take a chance. Norma

Carol, H. incrassata was the plant that the Huntington took down from the rafters. I was cutting it up most of the day to make baskets for the next Huntington sale. I thought I would never get it done, it looks nothing like the plant that I surely must have purchased with the wrong name on it. LOL ( this plant came from D. Liddle) I guess all of mine must be wrong. LOL Most Hoya we have in our greenhouse are either a David Liddle or R. van Donkleer plant. Norma

Chris, I would love the documention you have so generously offered!!!

Of course hoyas don't have papers!!! It was a figure of speech.

Norma...yes, David Liddle grows out his own plants and does not sell or part with them until they have flowered.

David Liddle is the only grower I would trust to get plants from...he is impeccable in his research and his integrity.

Norma..I am still digesting all I have learned...soon will have it up on my site....

No, Chris, my H. cardiophylla is NOT the same as that currently being offered in California and Hawaii.

Carol, Either is mine, I have looked at the two plants in question, one has a cordate leaf and the other doesn't
the H. incassata does not, so now I know the difference, and can see the difference even in the leaves.
H. cardiophylla holds the shape of the leaf even as it gets older, it does not out grow it.

Carol, my cardiophylla did come from David Liddle, so it must be right, my incassata also, so it must be right. I have never seen H. cardiophylla, offered in Calif. where? I sure would like to compare my plant with those that are offered. My plant came from Florida ex: David Liddle They can not give full location data in order to protect the plants from raiders. They will not give exact location of African swarm of Gasteria for instance it would be suicide for the plants. Norma

Carol, the Huntington plants in general have papers. They will not offer them usually on the ISI list without their papers. Hybrids, they list both parents, we have location data and some times for a few generations back, in the case of the Schick hybrids we are talking at least 25 yrs of birth records.

Some plants have old patent #'s like the Roses, that is their documentation. I'm so glad that you had a good time.
I am hoping to go to England next year if my husband is well, I never have been to the Kew, we have missed it every trip, this time I won't miss it for sure. We plan to see the National Flower show, there is so much to see and do in England, and I always feel that I'm at home, I am comfortable there. Norma

CORRECTION: I did not bring back H. cardiophylla from Liddle's Nursery. I brought back H. sp. aff. cardiophylla which means "the hoya species that is very near to the publication description". David (and I will carry this on, as well) and other reputatable growers and dealers use the "sp. aff." or "aff." when they cannot be 100% certain of it's ID. While David told me that he trusts his source, he himself will not give it a name until it has bloomed and he can be certain.

I was most remiss (bad, too) in leaving off the "sp. aff."....not done intentionally...I just spaced!

Carol

My label was not labeled as such, I won't change it. Norma

Mystery solved: H. aff. cardiophylla has bloomed and it is NOT, I repeat N O T the type H. cardiophylla. So, we have an aff. still...and still waiting for the REAL one. :o{

Carol does it fall in the limitation of the description. The bottom end and the top half, if its in the middle it works. I have 22 clones of Crssula ovata, no two are alike,so this seems to fit into the description. With other species, we take the flower apart and check out the key, I have only 6 C. Elegans, each of the squamosa are different, but they are still C. Elegans, just from different valleys, or from a swarm with two different extremes. The one in the middle could be the type selection. The ones growing on each side are still from the same species just with different color or hair. I am an only child so this was very hard for me to learn. My mother's family is a perfect example:My Grandfather red hair green eyes, the grandma dark skin, short and dumpling, grandpa tall and thin.The five children, my mother dark skin, red hair thin, my aunt, thin, red hair green eyes, uncle, blond blue eyes, uncle Aaron, uncle Harold dark like grandma, aunt rose dark like grandma, but thin. They are all called C. The Stein family.

Well - it was David who told me his H. aff. cardiophylla bloomed and that "our" plant is definitely NOT it...does not match the type. I have not seen it and trust David knows what he is talking about.

I agree with you Norma...too many people are looking for too many differences. The "official" stand is that 2 differences are all that is needed for a separate species... Flower color and leaf color/size are not a determination....

I have even moved to simply call H. pubicalyx cultivars...H. pubicalyx...that is what they are. Even the original cultivar published is now NO longer THAT specific cultivar....

In the forest, there are no species.....

I would like to know just who said that the "official stand" is that two differences make something a different species. I have searched for 50 years for such a definition and I haven't found anything except a very unscientific, off hand statement by Ted Green in Fraterna. As soon as it went out, I got a letter from a taxonomist PhD who quoted him and follwed the quote with a line of HaHas!

We know that the lowest major division is the species but there are also a number of minor groups below species. We have subspecies, varietas, and formas. I believe that formas is the lowest and pure reasoning says to me that a "forma" might differ in at least 3 ways. Next lowest is "varietas" and pure reasoning says to me that it must differ in at least 2 ways. Subspecies is only one degree below species so it must differ in at least 1 way. However, what I've never found officially defined is if the number of differences might start at two instead of one, which would make each of those categories have higher requirements.

Just Who or What is the "official" dictator of what makes a species?

I really think that before someone who didn't know a hoya from a doughnut hole 3 years ago starts spouting off about "officialdom," "impeccable papers" and other such hogwash, that said someone ought to learn the true facts before trying to pass oneself off as an authority with unlimited knowledge. Lean the language first! And then be able to cite sources!

And by the way, I received David Liddle's picture of his H. aff. cardiophylla the day after the claim of "impeccable papers" was mentioned. Even the "aff. cardiophylla" is misleading. It doesn't in the least fit the Hoya cardiophylla description. It doesn't in the least fit the Hoya cardiophylla type specimen and it doesn't in the least fit the phony Dale Kloppenburg pictured as it in World of Hoyas. Actually, it is about a thousand times prettier than either the true Hoya cardiophylla and Kloppenburg's phony.

My offer of documentation still stands. The only person who has sent for it is David Liddle, who sent the day after this thread started. That is how he knew it was not Hoya cardiophylla. His reply to me was to instruct me to keep off forums and stop wasting my time trying to educate people who didn't have the intelligence or the desire to learn. I think he was right and I could advise him to "Go and do likewise."

Goodbye folks. I'm out of here.

Chris Burton


Chris Burton

Chris...It was David Liddle who told me that the ID must vary by 2 factors and that "this" was determined by - I have forgotten the name. While we ARE all novices/newbies compared to research and collecting folks like you and David...it is only thru correct information from people like you and David that we are able to learn. Perhaps we use a wrong term, wrong spelling...but our intention to learn and advance in our knowledge is not lessened by those human errors.

Also, Chris, I asked you for a copy of the papers you offered(Sept.30), on this forum and have not received them.

Carol, your slip is showing!

What you said earlier was that it was the "official stand" that if two plants had two differences that they were different species. I asked for documentation and you say David Liddle told you.

If you are going to spread such ridiculous propaganda, as "official" anything, you ought to be able to cite title, volume and page number. David Liddle is a friend of mine and I certainly have a lot of respect for him and his opinion but David Liddle is not an official source. He isn't even a scientist. Like me, he first studied hoyas in his spare time while working for the phone company (or that is my impression) and then took up this study fulltime after he retired from his day job. His friend, hoya collecting and "study-buddy," Dr. P. I. Forster, is the professional taxonomist among us and he considers a large number of hoyas with a large number of differences to be a single species. Dr. Forster's opinion is no less valid than David's but it isn't "officia" either. I don't always agree with Dr. Forster, nor does David. I don't always agree with David and he doesn't always agree with me but one thing I'm sure of and that is that David did not tell you that there was an "official stand" saying that two differences between two plants made them two different species. Just look at the various subspecies of Hoya australis which were published by David and Dr. Forster. If two differences made them different species then we'd have no Hoya australis subspecies, we'd have a half dozen or so different species.

You talk such a good line (but "line" is all it is) that I'm sure a lot of beginners are very impressed and believe every word you say. You are doing all of them a disservice by spieling off your pseudo-facts as if they were gospel. I'm sure you will tell me that your words were only a "figure of speech" -- maybe so, but how does one distinguish between your "figures of speech," which are intended to mean nothing, and true facts? If you were to say, "It is the "official stand" that drunk driving is against the law, should new drivers say, "Oh I can drink and drive because Carol Noel says that "official stand" is only a figure of speech? -- doesn't mean a thing?" What's the difference?! Of course not.

We all know that you feel very insecure because of you lack of a higher education. You don't need to become and instant authority on anything to impress people. You'll impress more by following the example of of my friend, "Miz Jeannie, age ninety-some-odd, who says, "I hope I look every day of it, especially when I open my mouth!"

The fact is that determining if a plant is a new species or the "same old, same old" is not an exact science, no more than the practice of medicine. I believe that it will one day become an exact science but that day isn't here yet.

I have discussed this with serveral degreed taxonomists and none agree 100%. The most prevalent opinion is that many minor differences could exist between two plants and they'd not consider them different species but that a single difference, if it were great enough, might convince them that the two were different species.

Please, confine your dogmatic statements to things you know!

Chris

I was told there must be 5 points of difference before it is called a different species. I also read that the clone type, is in the middle of the range of the species, that there are extremes, on both ends of the this range of the clone type. They are still the same species. There is also subsp. and there are keys to be followed.
One does not declare themselfs an expert but is accepted as so by thier peers.
Real experts never claim to be, but are, they claim to be students of the species. My species is Crassula, and I'll never be an expert. I just hope to be knowledgeable.
Now I explained this as best as I could, this is just a discussion, and these are just facts as I believe them to be and as I read about. I'm not claiming anything, and you can all jump all over this and pick it apart and twist words if you wish.

Norma

I learned something, I should not trust my memory any more, I do forget where I get plants, never used to. Norma

Too right, Norma...I keep thinking I will remember but then...uh...

Now I have to write it down!!!

this thread is fasinating to read. It sounds more complex than breeding showdogs.
I think of you guys as "hoya fanciers".

I have one beautiful new hoya I purchased at a yard sale. It is my first.
It stands about 31/2 ft tall completely covering a trellis. The leaves are very dark green and I'm told the flowers are pink. I think it might be from the phill.The woman I bought from was from the phillapines and her friend who gave it to her had a name for it, but she couldn"t remember.
Can anyone rec. a website for me to learn good solid beginner info?
Norma, I think I'll send a sample with the stapelia to see what you can tell me about the leaves.I also bought 2 perfect cattelayas, told white with a little pink flowers, a good size cymbidium,color unknown, a very large dark purple flowered epidendr.I told her I would like to have a hoya as I was loading my car.I was very stunned when her son carried this one out. I'd like to know what else she is growing!
I'll keep looking in on this forum and learning from you pros.
Thanks,Debbie

Debbie...don't form any opinions from this thread...it was a "bad day at black rock" for all of us. We are fanciers...

Have you checked the PDB on Dave's Garden? There are some pictures of H. pubicalyx 'Pink Silver' and some others...perhaps you can find something close there...and later refine the search thru personal queries. Can you send pictures?

Hi Debbie~
Good to see another "Long Beacher" here! I have been collecting hoyas now for just a year & a half, but can tell you, watch out... they are ADDICTING. Ha
Hard to say what kind you got from that yard sale, but here is a site that has pics of hoyas with the leaves, so maybe you could start there, although a possitive ID is futile without the flower to compare as there are MANY that look alike from leaves alone. Here is the site:

http://botanova.tripod.com/blad5.html

Have fun
Marcy
PS: Where was that yard sale?

Thanks Alohoyan and Marcy,
I came back here after reading newest thread, Nicely done.
I love this site because new collectors like myself feel welcome along with those of you who are obviously very experienced. I respect your ethics and those of you who stand by the group when members are confronted by competiveness or hostility.
Debbie

Carol, I deliberty didn't ask Christine to mail me anything. She had already put it on the forum, so didn't need to. She was insulted, because I didn't consult with her on the forum.
It's a shame she is not accepted by the professional as an expert. I rather ask Hermine Stover, who knows her well, and I should have listened to her advise. Norma

Norma, My hoya has silver flecks on it's leaves.
Debbie

Debbie being that you live so close feel free to visit my garden. Just email me first. I like to have it at least picked up before I have a visitor. My best hoya are already housed at the Huntington where I know they will not die due to lack of warmth. We are now looking for the space to keep them, they have a habit of growing into other plants and climbing. I am so glad that you joined our group. I am a beginner, but I do a lot of studying, I needed to be up and running fast, we need to fill the new tropical house with interesting and very different species of many tropical genus of plants. Thanks, Norma

Hi Norma and thanks for the flexibility. I've just returned to work x 2 weeks and John has been diagnosed with diabetes.
IOur computer crashed a few weeks ago, I was considering writing you by snail mail but my brother in law returned our computer just yesterday afternoon. That's why you haven't seen me around.
I woould love to visit you and your garden. Just way to much to talk about. This is my first winter season and I'm suprised how much is going on outside. I thought it would be a time of rest and hibrantion. HaHa.
I'm gaurding two cymbidium flower spikes nightly. I now have a Phalinopsis (?). I'm still very concerned about my Hoya and a friend told me this morning they saw 'succulent wreaths' at HD in Hunt. Bch. yesterday.
Norma, I have to go to the office and punch out now, but I'll be in touch.
Debbie

Home Depo probably purchased them from Western from Vista. I saw them all made up. They do a good job. I hope Carol Noel reads this ----------------------------------------------------------------

Carol the word is documentation=(papers)( unfortunate choice of word.) location data, collector, and his collection # and may even say growing with, and they name the other plants they found with the plant. Often taking pictures, and measurements, and tell what kind of soil they are growing in, elevation. They usually will not print out GPS positioning information, however. Norma

Right you are, Norma.