I'm a bit unsure how to start this one since I have actually decided not to trade internationally until I figure out the ramifications of seeds coming into Israel and getting "caught". However, before I realized that this was a problem in the first place, I HAD already made trade agreements with almost 20 people via emails rather than through the trade forum. In any case, I sent my end of the bargain the very next day for all of my deals except one (to someone who requested 4 kinds of seeds and one of those wasn't yet dry enough to send...and that ended up being the only one of my trades that didn't get sent). Yet only ONE of the nearly 20 people I traded with actually sent me seeds. In fact, when I found out it might be a problem to send seeds to Israel, it was already nearly 2 weeks after I'd made the agreements with some of these people...at least a week with the others. And still, only ONE person sent me seeds. I sent out nearly 20....only one sent me seeds. And now that some of them are receiving the seeds I sent (even though I emailed all of them and explained that there might be a problem "so enjoy my seeds and don't send me seeds if you haven't already"), these people are asking what seeds they are supposed to send me! I'm astonished that:
(a) they don't remember that I (IMHO) very graciously backed out of the trade leaving them with seeds and me with cash out of pocket and no seeds, in order to save THEM the hassle of getting flack for sending seeds to Israel.
(b) they don't keep track of what they are supposed to send to whom (is it really that hard to make a list of your own trades?!),
(c) that they are asking what the trade was for when in all but my first two trades I wrote very specifically in the note included with the seeds what they were supposed to send me, and
(d) someone initiates a trade with me and then waits until they receive my seeds before they risk sending me their end of the bargain.
(e) one of them even complained about the state of the seeds in a pretty terse tone having apparently forgotten (despite several emails sent back and forth about the subject) that she was getting the seeds fro FREE. (and no, I am NOT at all pleased that her seeds arrived in less than perfect condition, but if I'd received a packet or two that weren't viable, I'd chalk it up to the risk of trading...I certainly wouldn't be [deleted] about it...as it is I suppose I should be thankful that I got any seeds at all!).
Is this normal? If it had only been a few who'd been late in sending seeds or who hadn't sent me seeds by the time I emailed everyone and said not to send if they hadn't already, I'd not have thought anything about it. Yet ONLY ONE of the nearly 20 people sent me seeds on time even though at least a week had gone by ... for some TWO weeks...before I sent out my "cancellation" emails. Am I wrong in assuming that these people were just so un-trusting that they wanted to "see the goods" before they sent me seeds (even though THEY were the ones who requested the trade in the first place!....except one of them)? Am I wrong in thinking this is pretty discouraging to a new trader to see that the people on the other end ask for seeds and then wait to get the seeds before they send out what they agreed upon? I really think that sucks. I didn't expect to get ALL of the seeds after I eventually felt the need to warn my trade partners about sending seeds to Israel, but still, you'd think SOME of them would have sent them out in a timely manner. And you'd think that MOST of them would remember what they were supposed to send me and not ask me after the fact "Oh yeah, what was I supposed to send you?"
I'm sorry if this sounds less than upbeat, but sheesh, I come in here in good faith, feeling excited about doing some trades and generally feeling like this was a great place to do so. Yet the first time I try to trade (REGARDLESS of what eventually happened in the "Israel" thread), only one person managed to keep her end of the bargain.
Why am I writing this now? Because today yet again, for the apprx dozenth time, I got an email from someone saying she got my seeds and wanting to know what she was supposed to send me....yet again, one of those I'd sent a note to with a clear P.S. indicating what the trade was for....and I received this email 4 weeks after the initial deal was made.
I want to reiterate that after sending my cancellation emails to the people at the other end of the trades I DID EXPECT that this would mean some of the trades wouldn't come to fruition, but I didn't expect that only ONE of them would have already been sent!
Feeling rather disillusioned,
Julie
question about trade etiquette
one i did not get seeds from you had yours ready you e -mailed me said not to so was not sending mine.. her is what can happen i got pk.but had to go to post no note what for or screen name after finallly tracing it down i mailed her 14 pks. seeds... i had to feel good to get up to p.o. to pay the 12 to get it first...so thats way there was a delay this was not a trade she said had no seeds to trade...so hope this is all clear things happen.... Maybe mail to isreal takes longer to missionaries in africa its sometimes 2 months before they get it.. relaxe enjoy the trading things do happen but sometimes they don't then get hot if want to i been there..its not right but it happens... blessings Twyla
This message was edited Sep 19, 2004 1:01 PM
oh i do not remember a lot of times and i write notes which then i loose so maybe they have memory problems do to illness which is so aggravating i know they think i'm slow-- nut or senile which i am old senile hope not.... i just take each day as comes.. sorry you are disilliusioned.. life.. happens all the time i know this by experince..i think if packaged right can send you seeds...
hope43, you and I never made a final agreement on what seeds you had to trade with me. So there was never a deal. I don't even have your address, nor you mine. So don't worry about it.
-Julie
I did get seeds from you, but in your last e-mail you said NOT to send until you got back to me. I have not forgotten. The only thing is, that our postal service has very strong stamping machines and you sent in a regular envelope. Here is a photo of the crushed seeds. I feel really bad for you, and I want to send you some postage to cover your expense. But, if you are going to keep trading even with your own country, you should use a padded envelope. I am not trying to make you mad or anything, I just hate what happened to these seeds. These arrived in yesterday's mail. The mail takes almost a month, sometimes less, sometimes more. You just never know. It could be the other people have not received theirs yet. Give everybody a chance to get back to you. Again, they may not want to tell you the seeds were totally crushed.
Julie, thank you for sending them. I really appreciated it, but I do need to reimburse you for your postage.
edited to add: send me the amount of postage I owe you.
This message was edited Sep 19, 2004 12:22 PM
MY GOD! I'm in shock over the state of those seeds! I know other people have received their seeds in great shape. I'm really sorry yours arrived literally pulverized. Unbelievable!
As for reimbursing me, I honestly don't want or expect that - even if the seeds had arrived in perfect condition....but given the state of those seeds, I can't imagine anyone expecting someone to reimburse them for a pulverized mess! Yikes! I was just really disappointed that such a huge percentage of the people I traded with put off holding up their end of the deal until when I did ask everyone I'd traded with to hold off if they hadn't sent the seeds yet....well, it seems NO ONE had sent them yet. I didn't expect there to be such a common thread of lateness. I mean, people asked me for seeds and I sent those out the next day. But they didn't send theirs. Yes, I know that some people aren't as prompt as others. That's fine. But for EVERYONE to not be prompt??? That disappointed me.
What I'm trying to get at here is this: yes, in the end I asked those who hadn't sent yet to hold off on doing so. But if I hadn't asked them to wait, well....the situation would have been the same....people asking me for seeds and then not sending me the ones they agreed to send...or at least, procrastinating to a point that it is a bit absurd. That is, the amount of people who put it off is to me absurd.
I just want to know if this is the common practice here. I mean, I was really excited about getting seeds that I can't get here. I figured if half of them arrived in good shape, I'd be ecstatic. You see, I didn't expect all of them to work out great. I just expected other people to share my enthusiasm and therefore send the seeds when the deal was made. Does that make sense?
I'm honestly not angry. I'm just disappointed. And I would just like to know how to set my expectations in future.
I'm also very upset that 2 of my packages got so utterly destroyed. If I do ever trade again, I will make sure to use padded envelopes....but seeing the state of those seeds, I really can't see how even a padded envelope could have protected them. It looks like a giant ANVIL was dropped on the envelope! Really a shame.
-Julie
lol.. Julie, the thing is that with padded envelopes, they do not go through the sorting machines and stamping machines (because they are fatter, they get stuck and break the machines), so they have to be processed differently avoiding major costs in repairs, therefore, not crushing the seeds. In some padded envelopes I even use extra padding (bubble wrap or cut up a padded envelope in half and put the seeds in that section first, then into the padded envelope. The idea is that fatter the envelope the less chance of it going thru the sorters. You said you had two packages destroyed? How many have acutally made it?
I had some SASE postings where I was giving away seeds, It was three days that I had not sent your seeds when I got your e-mail. I was trying to fill the envelopes that had come in for the seeds I was giving away. Sometimes, people just get busy, In my case, I was going to mail them that week. Some people go to the post office once a week, not everyday. Which is normal if you are trading. Have faith, they may still come thru. I felt so bad when I saw the crushed seeds. Oh well, it just wasnt' meant to be.
EDITED: to include Date we made trade Sept 7, and you sent me your addy, on Sept 9 you sent me e-mail saying not to mail. That was only two days, maybe everyone has not had a chance to e-mail you. It is Sunday Sept 19, only ten days after your last e-mail. So it has not been that long. Some mail takes longer than that. I hope this helps.
This message was edited Sep 19, 2004 1:21 PM
I have had 9 people email me to say their seeds have arrived in good order. Then there are the 2 that got crushed (yours and another). That leaves 8 of the 19 still unaccounted for as no one has emailed me about those yet.
I was just emailing privately with someone else and said the same thing you did: that it must've been such a disappointment for you to open an envelope, feeling so excited to get the seeds in the mail, only to see them crushed! I think that's worse than not ever getting them in the first place! Again, sorry I didn't know about the sorting machines. And thank you for the tips about packaging. I'll definitely keep them in mind if I trade again.
-Julie
Hi Julie, I'm sorry to hear about your problems with trading. I do hope you stick in there and don't leave us! Give time for your seeds to arrive. I do a lot of international trading. So far I have only had 1 package not arrive to it's destination. This is out of a countless amount of packages sent over the year. I would absolutely love to trade with you. I hope you have a better trading experiences soon to come. I do not have my seeds listed on my trade page. I would be here all day trying to add them all. So hopefully I can start doing a little at a time. But if you're interested..Please email me and I can give you a list of some of the freshly picked seeds I have.
Kim
Please always use padded envelopes or bubble wrap.. I receive many crushed seeds, and it could be avoided..
Larkie
Yes trading can be difficult at times..I have lost robins that I have invested lots of time and money into, recieved enveopes with out seeds in them.. but
more often have had some special trades and met some special people.
Many people need to remember that this is a fun hobby and not life ending.
Be nice, and always think the best of others, that they have the most positive of intentions.
I have traded intl a few times both sent and recieved seeds with no problems but yes there are many rules so be aware.
I have only traded seeds a few times. A friend of mine had friends out of state that she knew had seeds I was looking for and she put us in contact with one another. I had a positive experience those few times. I think it is probably not a great idea to be trading outside of one's own country for many reasons. In the US, not only do the individual states impose restrictions on plant matter which includes but is not limited to seed but our federal government has imposed acts and regulations which impose restrictons and outline penalties which can be severe. The cost of eradicating inasive exotic species here in the US has reached astronomical proportions. The American taxpayer is shelling out over 125 billion dollars a year. That figure is low. It has become a public health issue to control, manage, and eradicate exotic invasives. I would suspect the Israeli Government is faced with comparable chalenges and therefore has similar regulations to protect indigenous flora and fauna. Bottom line is that I suspect many seed exchanges occuring between members of different countries are illegal and might carry severe consequences. salvia_lover was wise to have called a halt to her exchanges in my humble opinion.
Here's a site with many links of significance that address the issues facing many countries-
http://www.invasivespecies.gov/laws/fedacts.shtml
Thank you for all the feedback everyone. I think perhaps I was expecting too much in thinking everyone should send their seeds immediately like I did. But unless there was some agreement beforehand about delaying the pacakge (one person I made a trade with was going to send me Datura seeds which weren't yet ready...and therefore a delay was necessary), I don't see why a 3-4 week delay should be acceptable. I was hoping to get many of the seeds started while it's still warm here and then overwinter the small plants indoors until spring. That won't be possible now. And therefore I was/am disappointed. I'll know better in future if I decide to trade again, how to set my expectations, but for now I think I'll stick to trades within Israel with the handful of Israelis here on DG.
I really do appreciate all of your feedback on this.
Happy Trading! :-)
-Julie
I have been a member for several years and have traded with a lot of different people within the states and overseas. Although I have had one or two "lost" packages or crushed seeds due to improper packaging, overall, my trading experience has been very positive and it is very rare that I find someone waits until they recieve my seeds before sending them back. I have to admit that I've been pretty bad with my latest seed trades and have just gotten busy and have actually recieved a couple before I even got mine back but it had nothing to do with waiting for theirs to arrive to make sure that I was getting something in return. I have actually been surprised at how easy it was to do international trades and now just keep custom forms at home so I don't have to actually go to the post office every time I want to send out an international trade. Granted, some international trades, do take several weeks but that is because the mail is slower not that the intent of the traders is any different.
One thing that may cause confusion, which kinda irks me - is that when people send out seeds, they fail to use either their e-mail address or DG name on the package so if I have several trades going on, I may not be able to match the name on the package to the correspondenses since I "know" the person by their DG name or e-mail address and not necessarily by their real name. I usually will put my actual name and my DG name on the package so that it is easier for the recipient to figure out who I am and what trade this is.
I am sorry that you have not had very positive experiences with your trading. My experience has been the exact opposite. I think most DG'ers are kind and sharing people and more often than not, I have recieved free seeds with nothing wanted or expected in return. Most DG'ers are especially generous to those just starting out or those in special need. Over the years, I have only had one negative experience in all my dealings but that was just one bad apple within a whole garden of very nice and caring people.
Karen
I recently received seeds from Kaleem in Pakistan. I wasn't sure how that would go, but they came promptly (within 13 days) and in excellent condition. He also sent them "registered" mail. I emailed him a thank you and asked him about that, knowing it costs quite a bit more to do that. He told me that he has found that if he doesn't send them registered mail, they ususally get stopped at US Customs and destroyed. I found that very very nice of him to go to the extra expense, just to ensure that they would arrive, and he was just sharing, at his expense - it wasn't even a trade.
I have found Dave's to be a very reliable place to share seeds. There might be a few bad apples here or there - but it isn't common. There was probably a mis-understanding in this situation, and I hope that it gets worked out.
Trading internationally can be much more difficult than trading within your own country. I plan on sending things registered from now on whenever I feel that US Customs might interfere with the delivery.
I had one trade that didn't come through for me, internationally, and won't mention from where, as I don't think it was that person's fault. Sometimes it just happens and it is out of our control.
I do ask, when just doing a "give away" and not a "trade" that they include their Daves Garden name and a list of what they wanted so that I can double check it on my list (I keep a spreadsheet to track mine). I also always ask that padded envelopes be used, and the proper postage be there, as I have had many people forget to include the postage in the past. One out of 10 isn't bad, but 5 out of 10 can get expensive when it's not a trade, and it's just me sharing with others.
Also, if you write "hand stamp" on the envelope, it also helps - write it with a red marker, or ask your post office to stamp that on it.
Hope this helps!
Karrie
This message was edited Sep 23, 2004 4:51 AM
Thanks for the great feedback Karen and Karrie. What an incredibly generous gesture on the part of Kaleem too! Wow! It's good to know that despite some misunderstandings and perhaps a few rare bad apples, trading can be a really great experience here on DG. I'm still holding off on more international trades for now. But I hope that some day in the near future I'll have more info at hand which will tell me that international trading can still take place for me without me risking going to jail! Yikes!
-Julie
I recently received seeds from Japan in a regular, but beautifull envelope, all were in great condition, my trade will be when I go to the San Fransisco plant sale!! Things happen in the mail, and often take very long to arrive at destination. We should not jump to conclusions so fast. Remember, accept the things We cannot change, and realize things really aren't as bad as they seem sometimes. Most of the time there are reasons for things not working out the way they should. We go thru illness, surgeries, catastophies, and aren't always thinking just about what we traded and when. For myself at 54, I have an 12 year old who takes much of my time, and 3 grandkids, I have Fibromyalgia, 3 herniated disks in my neck, and protruding disks in my back, I just surpassed my 5 year with breast cancer, and complete hysterectomy, and have other family problems! Life happens, these seeds are so minor when you consider the whole in life, take it lightly, enjoy, and think of the good, I love this site, the secret succulent & cactus trade was a ball, and very rewarding, and Dave's keeps up my sanity, Happy New Year, Shalom, Annie