Milan...was cruising thru the PDB and noticed H. engleriana...which I was just reading, last night, is another made up name for H. serpens. Another "wrong name" is H. minima.
In The Hoyan, Vol. 11 section #1 there is a long article about how the name got invented...
Hope you don't mind me pointing that out.... :o)
H. engleriana/H. serpens
No prob, tell me a Hoya that is not in the PDB yet and I'll change it to that name :).
BTW saw that some of your pictures made it in now, TY.
Oh, and a copy of the article would be nice. Gotta check with Chris though if we can use it in here under serpens.
Are you sure I owned these two plants, they are definitely not the same, what gives? One had rice like leaves and crawled on the surface and did not climb, I also currently have serpens, perhaps two vaieties, one have very plump leaves the other more deflated. Something is not right. I'll check my other sources of information. Norma
I have this short description of H. engleriana, which is 50+ years old perhaps plants have changed in that time? H. engleriana Siam Epiphytic: L. 1.5 cm long, 4 mm across, upperside convex; Fl. 4 together, terminal, 15mm white, and violet. ? I also have a different spelling, could be a typo?
Mine looked as if the leaves were long rice? and opposite of each othe. Could this be correct. I never seen that mistake made in years. Could they have corected it in that time. Chris books are 30 years old now. None of my up to date books show it that way, and I haven't seen if for sale incorredtly labeled. I'm lost and can't follow what are talking about here?
Carol,
I also checked around and any reference to H. engleriana including pictures do not indicate and resemlance to serpens.
Also it is listed as IPNI 98455-1 thus it will remain in the PDB unless proven to me otherwise.
I made a mistake...it is Vol. #2.
The date of the writing is 1990...not 30-50 years ago.
The article is far too long to reproduce.
"....EXOTOCA III called it H. engleriana, but in the EXOTIC PLANT MANUAL (a smaller edition excepted from EXOTOCA III) which also called it H. engleriana, noted at the end of the description, "This may be H. serpens".
Chris' research backs it up...H. serpens has been called H. engleriana, H. nummularia, H. minima...and a number of others.
Not meaning to pick a fight...just pass on the facts.
Though from the above it may have been that H. serpens had been called H. engleriana by mistake but that doesn't mean that H. engleriana doesn't exist at all, right?
Don't know the answer to that...will find out.
BTW, IPNI is the Index Kewensis on line...and tho' it lists all publications, there is no assurance that the publication listed is valid, correct or standing.
I will try to get more facts...
Even Chris herself gave a short description of H. engleriana leaves which is not comparable to H. serpens leaves on the "The Hoya Page".
Please cure me of my confusion :)
Im looking at Cris Burton The Hoyan, that is what I am referring to. Vol.2, No 1 Issue July 1, 1980 Am I looking at the right book. If I can fig. out how to send it I have a scanner, I have done it before and it worked, I willing to try.
Milo, I need to be cured of confusion as well.
Carol volue 2 of what book? I don't have an exoctica. but I can check it out at the Huntington and print it off and send it to Milo and you can translate for me.
When I said 30-50 years ago, I am looking at old books that have descriptions. Not even CH books. I was just looking up descriptions to compare with each other. Did Cris write books that long ago, before 1979 that is? Are you saying that what others have researched does not count anymore? I should only look at information from 1990 on, okay, but what book are you looking at. Are you suggesting the ergleriana never exhisted. Or are you just saying that the name once was attached to H. serpens. What about H. franterna I think I have 8 of those with that name.
Thats no biggie, then.
H. australis, has how many varieties, aka known as. and they are still fighting over those. Milo what would like a picture of the flower I have but the leaves just a drawing, what do you need to prove what? I'm confused why this is even being discussed, I missed something here,
Norma
Well, as Dewey Fisk used to say "If you aren't confused you weren't paying attention".
YES...there IS H. engleriana and I will be posting a photo of it.
Here's what happened: I read the article last night in Volume 11, #2 of The Hoyan stating that H. engleriana was really H. serpens...and I lept to the conclusion that it was simply a case of wrong names. I apologize...but it HAS led to a lively discussion, hasn't it?
H. engleriana has small leaves and is shrublike...not like H. serpens.
Chris Burton wrote ONE book and she wrote 23 volumes, 4 issues each volume = 92 issues of The Hoyan. The Hoyan was the Newsletter of the Hoya Society International which Chris Burton stopped writing (the newsletter) in order to work on her book) a couple of years ago.
Norma...not saying anything if I haven't written it...and we are discussing this because I brought it up. :o)
Milan...perhaps someone has a photo of H. serpens and we could add that to the PDB as well?
Carol
Sure would like to have a photo of it in PDB but those seem to be rare. Even better I'll have to find me one of those to see it in person LOL. (I'm a hands on person with little imagination)
Eventually we gonna make the PDB at Daves Garden the one stop all info about Hoyas place Hehehe.
I enjoy the discussions and keep learning out of them :).
Milan
Posting a photo of H. engleriana in the PDB...sorry it is fuzzy.
Okay, I'll butt out. Thanks for telling me, I do appreciate all the research you have done, and thanks I would appreciate a picture, I didn't realize it was only a two way conversation.
Norma
Hey...relax...I had no intent to cut you out of anything, Norma....I simply wanted you to know that I said just what I said and there were no hidden meanings about Fraterna or anything else.
I posted the picture in PDB...and I have the comparison between H. engleriana and H. linearis from the publication data of H. engleriana if anyone is interested. Norma...you might find it interesting, as it "could" be your hoya with 'long rice like leaves'...
Hidden meanings about Fraterna? I certainly wouldn't think so. I was just inquiring if this was another case like the H. Fraterna one, several synonyms for the same plant? Norma I also have H.linearis. H engleriana, have tiny long rice type leaves, well mine did anyway.
Hey relax about the
Fraterna, I only brought it up as an example of how plants collect synonyms I certainly don't want to butt into conversations of others.
H. engleriana is the one, I already know that, I killed two of them already. This next one is not going to be grown here, I know better now that I can't grow it. I had it on my wish list, I do want to get another. Mater of fact I will buy two, or one that is longer than just 1" Norma
AH, H. fraterna. I thought you meant Fraterna the newsletter...must've been short some brain cells yesterday! LOL.
Yea..I have a possible real H. fraterna, but have to wait until it blooms...it and H. coriacea look identical in the leaves.
I know I have one H. fratnera and several that are similar. I am now hanging some on the branches of the fruit trees, at least it will bring the bees to fertilize my citrus flowers. it's sneeky but I don't care if it works, Im certainly not going to do it with a paint brush. hehehe. Norma
PDB where do I find this.? Carol I would love to see the picture that you are referring. The picture of H. engleriana would be a great one to have. Norma
Norma, PDB is the abbreviation for Plants Database.
Below find the link
http://plantsdatabase.com/go/57423/index.html
Let me say that Chris Burton has been misunderstood and misquoted. Chris Burton NEVER said that Hoya engleriana was Hoya serpens or that Hoya serpens was Hoya engleriana.
What I said was said in the early days of the Hoya Society International. The leading hoya seller at the time was one Ms. Loyce Andrews, who listed over 200 hoyas in her catalog. Careful research has proved that Ms. Andrews had only 7 correctly labeled hoya species out of those 200.
She and everyone who bought from her sold Hoya serpens mislabeled as Hoya engleriana. In correspondence she vigorously defended the name, even quoting Hosseus' original description, claiming that the leaves fit his desciption of the largest leaves of H. engleriana.
Prior to her selling it as Hoya engleriana, she sold it as Hoya minima.
Prior to her selling it as Hoya minima, she sold it as Dischidia minima.
There was a book which was sold in just about every nursery in the US during the mid to late 1970. It was published by The Merchants Publishing Company. It showed a picture of Hoya serpens and it was labeled as Hoya miniata (a Latin word which means red wax).
Hoya nummularia is probably a synonym for Hoya serpens. I have seen type material and it looks identical, however,Decaisne described very different flowers and the flowers on the species look as he described them, at least to the naked eye. I did not have an opportunity to examine them. I suspect they may have been only buds.
Several of us sent cuttings of Hoya serpens to Kew for identification. We were each told that the hoya was Hoya serpens and one of us had a note attached which said that Hoya serpens was the only hoya they had in their conservatory at that time that they could identity with 100% certainty.
I want it known that I NEVER said that Hoya engleriana was Hoya serpens or visa versa. What I said was, "The Hoya sold in US trade in the 1970s and early 1980s, chiefly by Ms. Loyce Andrews was MOST DEFINTELY Hoya serpens, NOT Hoya engleriana.
Hoya serpens has small, almost round, dime sized leaves. Hoya engleriana's leaves are narrow, about a half inch long by, about 1/32 to 1/16 inch wide. It's Hoya bella look alike flowers usually number only 4 to an umbel.
Please, if you are going to quote me, quote me -- stop twisting what I say around to mean the opposite!
Chris
Glad your carefully read all the posts, Chris. Apologies have been written, misunderstandings explained.... ;o}