shady problem area

This area has been a thorn in my side for quite some time. I'd love to hear any ideas about what to do with it...

It's the corner of the back yard, the West South West corner. It's shaded by a live oak (evergreen), which you can see in the pic. Also, on the opposite property line there are two oaks (not evergreen) which shade it in the AM. Plus, the neighbor's house shades it in the late afternoon. And the fence doesn't help. BTW, the small section of fence, from the neighbor's fence to the house, is going to be moving.

In this first picture, no flash was used and it's 3:00 in the afternoon. This is really how much sun it gets all day, except for a short time in the early AM when the sun passes below the branches of the trees on the opposite property line. It gets a bit more morning sun after October and before mid March (when those trees are bare).

The area will hold water after a heavy rain (I'm in south Louisiana, it rains a lot) so hostas won't survive in the ground. On the other hand, the roots of the Live Oak hog the available moisture when it's dry. *sigh*

The vine on the fence and in the tree is the neighbor's confederate jasmine. It's a bit sunnier on their side of the fence ....

I've planted Elephant Ears, and they seem to be doing well. EE's are invasive here, so I figured they would survive. I plan to put hostas in pots in front of the EE's, and caladiums in front of that.

But it's so dark and dreary! I don't think even caladiums will brighten it up much!

BTW, I can't till the area due to the Oak roots, or build up the area without risking the Live Oak.

to be continued ...
Cheri'

In this picture I used a flash, so you can see the baby EE's.

As I said, this is South Louisiana ... it gets hot, but mostly it's damp - lots of rain, high humidity - anything that is susceptible to fungus or mold is out.

Help?
please ...

Thanx!
Cheri'

Could Columbines work here? Mine grow in sun or shade, and flower well in shade as well. Once they are established, they can withstand drought. The foliage is so cute. Another that comes to mind is Pachysandra. I have heard of a variegated variety, that could be mixed with the plain ones. I envison something growing up the fence, or on a trellis. Perhaps a nice big striped hammock or swing. You really have alot of decor options... just something BIG and colorful!

It sounds a little like my shade section. I have pines and a maple that zap everything out of the soil. In the summer time it gets very dry.

Do you get standing water there? Or does it just stay damp after it rains?

Have you tried hostas in the ground? I would think they'd do okay as long as they aren't sitting in water.

I'm not sure columbines can take the heat here. I haven't had good luck with them. (ie I've killed several over the years lol) A nice trellis would be good, maybe white to reflect some light ... I don't know what would grow on it, tho, except maybe dutchman's pipe.

Water does stand there, is standing there now, in fact. It'll drain off in a day - rarely stands for more than a day after the rain stops, but it rains often here. I don't think hosta can take it. (the EE's love it! We've had about 4 inches of rain this week and they've grown a few inches in that time) The area goes from being flooded to being dry and cracked and back again, all summer long.

I'm considering planting ditch lilies there (Hemerocalis Fulva), to see what happens. Ditch lilies aren't common here, but I got some in trade last year. I've planted them in an old wooden crab box, to keep them from being invasive. Maybe I'll plant a few in this area, and see how they do.

Cheri'

Another plant that likes shade, tolerates drought, but also like water is bleeding hearts. I have regular & fern leaf. The most flowers were in Spring, but they continued all season. Once they are rooted, they don't mind dry periods. Another idea... is MOSS. It sounds like pretty perfect conditions for moss. You could add rocks for texture, & have the moss grow over them. Asparagus fern might also like it...always an airy looking plant!

I have a similar area, and am closer to your climate and zone. I've been looking into trying bright large flowering clematis. I haven't tried it yet, but my research has found several varieties available that "say" they live in partial sun, partial shade, and shade. I'm thinking of giving it a try anyway.

I was planning to put up a large white trellis, as you mentioned, and trying several varieties with different advertised blooming periods throughout the spring to fall season.

I already have liriope and ferns. My yard also gets a lot of rain at times, but my "standing water" areas are in the front yard, which does get some light, if not actual direct sun.

We live on the "downhill" slope of the street, so we had problems initially with everyone elses' water rushing down our yard. We have managed to redirect all that water down our fairly long driveway through one corner that we call "the flume." This shady area we have is at the end of the driveway, by the side of "the flume." So water doesn't actually stand where I would plant, but it is completely shaded all times of the day, all seasons.

If this sounds like an idea you might be interested in pursuing, I'll be happy to share the info on the clematis varieties I have found, along with a source.

I bet violets would also do good... I know they can be a weedy nightmare but when planted in mass they're really pretty. You might give some of the different primroses a try too...

I had tried bleeding hearts in that area years ago with no luck, but I'm thinking of trying them again. I got one as a bonus plant in a bulb order this spring, and gave it to DD. It's doing well and makes me want to try them again. Soooo pretty. =)

Does Asparagus fern tolerate standing water?

Judith, do you really think there are clematis that will bloom in deep shade? That would be wonderful if it were true!

Violets! that sounds good too. =) Primroses don't do well here. I don't know if it's the heat or the humidity that gets 'em, but they don't like it.

I'm not worried about stuff getting weedy or invasive in that area (heck, I planted EE's, which are a known 'problem plant'). I figure the conditions there are bad enough to keep anything from being a major problem. And it's only going to get worse, as the live oak keeps growing ....

Thanx, all!
Cheri'

I am not certain that ANYTHING bothers asparagus ferns! I have seen them grow along a stream, in sand, hanging in trees...you name it! I have one as a houseplant in CT, but I saw the grow wild in FL. It was a wonderful effect hanging over a wall, and used as ground covers. They trail more in low light situations, and bush out in sunny areas. My indoor fern hung down over 6 feet! It is one of my favorite houseplants, as it is so versatile.

On the Internet, go to brushwoodnursery.com, select "Clematis." As you look at the various pages of varieties of Clematis, you will note that some include "shade" in the description.

As I said, I haven't tried these, just found them this week. They're a bit pricey each at this source. You might be able to find them cheaper elsewhere. But at least you will have the names of the plants you are looking for.

In your situation, I would suggest possibly planting them in pots below the trellis, sitting on a built-up "shelf" above the standing water level. Just a thought. I found some of the varieties have light, bright, colors. But was disappointed not to find a nice large yellow. Another source, or later, perhaps.

I came looking for an answer about shade/butterflies, but when I saw your pic, I just had to throw in an idea. (I'm a landscaper) so naturally I thought that a bit of natural stone, terraced and stacked and filled with soil might get you some good space to grow. You've definitely got competition from the oak, but if you don't get too crazy and keep the bed small, I don't believe it would bother the tree at all. Maybe you could do an irregular shape with natural stones and fill in behind them, berming up in the center with topsoil. Then you could definitely do hostas, heucheras, japanese painted ferns, and a lot of other things that I can't grow in OK because of the cold winters.
Can you picture what I'm saying at all?
My question is this, does anyone know if I can attract butterflies w/hydrangea or fragrant viburnum. I have a client who wants a b-fly garden so badly, but doesn't have much sun in the area that we have to work with.
I'm afraid I know the answer.....all the b-fly attractants like sun, or at least the lists I've seen so far are all sun lovers. What do you guys think?
Pancha

I'm adding asparagus fern to my list of "stuff to get".

The clematis seems like it might work, especially Comtesse de Bouchaud. Everything I read indicates it's fool proof . . . I've never grown clematis before. And it's a very common clematis. Do clematis cuttings root easily? Maybe I can get a piece from someone later on. I've planted stuff that was rated to grow in shade, and this area defeated it. So, I'd hate to pay so much for a plant and kill it. LOL

Cheri'

The one thing I hear over & over is that Clematis like their roots kept cool. This may not be a problem in your shady area, but they suggest that something is planted around the base of the Clematis. I think I have Jackamanii, & it blooms where it receives very little direct sunlight. All the blossoms are under the eave of the house. The seed formations are pretty interesting to look at after it is finished flowering. Little wavy puffballs! Pancha - butterflies will go for almost any flower... grow them, and they will come...

Pancha -

Climbing hydrangea and wild hydrangea (arborescens) have been known to attact butterflies. I'm not sure about Oak Leaf, but possibly.

Tracey

pancha, I completly missed your post while perusing the recomended website ... sorry.

I'm not going to take a chance adding any dirt to that area ... Right on the other side of that fence, the neighbor built a raised bed a couple of years ago. I just about died! But, the tree has survived it, and I've since read that you can get away with covering 50% of the roots, if you don't come too close to the trunk. I think the neighbors have covered this tree's 50% ...

I've seen ancient oaks killed by less. It's so sad.

As to shady butterfly gardens -

I searched the PDB for plants hardy to zone 7b that are attractive to birds/butterflies and sun exposure ...

Sun to part shade - 696 results
http://plantsdatabase.com/advanced.php?nn%5B16%5D=0&nn%5B1%5D=0&nn%5B2%5D=0&nn%5B3%5D=13&nn%5B4%5D=2&nn%5B5%5D=0&nn%5B6%5D=0&nn%5B7%5D=0&nn%5B8%5D=0&nn%5B9%5D=2&nn%5B23%5D=0&nn%5B10%5D=0&nn%5B12%5D=0&sname=Plants&Search.x=31&Search.y=8

Light Shade - 156 results
http://plantsdatabase.com/advanced.php?nn%5B16%5D=0&nn%5B1%5D=0&nn%5B2%5D=0&nn%5B3%5D=13&nn%5B4%5D=3&nn%5B5%5D=0&nn%5B6%5D=0&nn%5B7%5D=0&nn%5B8%5D=0&nn%5B9%5D=2&nn%5B23%5D=0&nn%5B10%5D=0&nn%5B12%5D=0&sname=Plants&Search.x=27&Search.y=11

And Partial to Full Shade - 72 results
http://plantsdatabase.com/advanced.php?nn%5B16%5D=0&nn%5B1%5D=0&nn%5B2%5D=0&nn%5B3%5D=13&nn%5B4%5D=4&nn%5B5%5D=0&nn%5B6%5D=0&nn%5B7%5D=0&nn%5B8%5D=0&nn%5B9%5D=2&nn%5B23%5D=0&nn%5B10%5D=0&nn%5B12%5D=0&sname=Plants&Search.x=27&Search.y=21

Even Full Shade gave 10 results
http://plantsdatabase.com/advanced.php?nn%5B16%5D=0&nn%5B1%5D=0&nn%5B2%5D=0&nn%5B3%5D=13&nn%5B4%5D=5&nn%5B5%5D=0&nn%5B6%5D=0&nn%5B7%5D=0&nn%5B8%5D=0&nn%5B9%5D=2&nn%5B23%5D=0&nn%5B10%5D=0&nn%5B12%5D=0&sname=Plants&Search.x=31&Search.y=4

Apparently, it's possible! Good luck with that project.

Cheri'

Sundry,

Try an azalea over by the EE;s . It should like the acidic conditions from the oaks. You would probably have to improve the drainage for it though.

You could try abiliums also. I just bought my first house a year ago and I have three corners on the property just like your problem corner (minus the standing water) that I'm trying to deal with. I have one corner of my back yard that is a virtual box of shade, a towering redwood, high fences with even higher trees and shrubs along them and then my own house. The lawn wont grow under that redwood but moss sure does and there is an old camelia back in the deepest part where the fences come together shaded by the redwood that is doing super good but I dont think camelias like a lot of water.

another suggestion is a tub or container water garden. I have one in another shady corner and have grasses and some flowering water plants in there that are all shade tolerant and it is doing great.

Hope this helps.

woops.

I meant abutilon up there where I said abiliums.

I've killed a few azalea in that area already . . . it's way too damp. I've just been looking online at the abutilon that you recommend, but it seems they want part sun . . . too bad, because that would be gorgeous. I might try one or two on the opposite property line . . . it gets afternoon sun for a few hours.

I've added a diffenbachia at the back near the fence. They say I can't kill it, unless we have a cold winter . . . we'll find out. So far, so good. If it does well, I'll add more next summer. I also planted two Petasites - one variegated - that I got from hugeposiepatch. I'm waiting to see if they will take off. Again, I'm told I can't kill it . . . And I moved the EE's around a bit. The EE's are doing really well, getting big and showy.

I think I'm going to try some calla lilies there, as well. I'm waiting to see if my big white old fashioned callas are going to go dormant or not this summer. If they do, I'll divide them up and plant some in this area.

All in all, progress is being made. =) Once the petasites are up, I'll post another picture.

Cheri'

I did an advance query at plants.usda.gov, the USDA plants database. I asked for plants found in Loisiana, facultative wetlands+ (can be in wet or dry areas, but found more in wet areas), shade tolerant, and routinely available for sale:

Athyrium filix-femina (Lady Fern)
Fagus grandifolia (American Beech)
Fagus grandifolia var. caroliniana
Hypericum densiflorum (Bushy St. John's Wort -yellow flwrs)
Magnolia grandiflora (Southern Magnolia)
Stenotaphrum secundatum (St. Augustine Grass)
Thelypteris noveboracensis (New York Fern)


This message was edited Jun 17, 2004 3:10 PM

Sundry,

I know all the books say sun for the Abutilon but my dad has 7 or 8 of them in orange, yellow, pink and white. about half are in sun most of the day, a couple more are in dappled shade and two are in semi-heavy shade. The ones in dappled shade are gorgeous and have been there several years. The ones in the sun are nice but not as nice as the ones in dappled shade. The couple he has in heavier shade are also doing well and have been there several years.

He gave me a rooted cutting from a pink one in a pot almost a year ago and I almost killed it putting it in the sun. So I tried in in different degrees of shade and it finaly started perking up when I put it under some fairley dappled shade and re-potted up. After making sure it was going to do well, I planted it right where it was in some really good compost. I dug deep and wide and mixed in some potting mix with the compost to give it good drainage.

Since I put it in there about 8 or 9 weeks ago, it is ripping! It has more then doubled in size and is flowering regularly. Most of my dads abulions are bushy but I'm pruning and training this one as a tree.

I'm a total novice at this so I am really pleased at the way this one has turned out. My dad's got an orange one going for me that I have to grab the next time I visit.

The ones I've seen at nurseries are generaly pretty shabby looking imo. My dad took cuttings years ago from some he found growing at the city library.

Good luck if you decide to try one. :)

hmmmmmmm, that sounds too good. =)

I see there are lots of varieties - tall ones, short ones . . . very cool. I think there will be at least one Abutilon in my future.

Thanx!
Cheri'

Your initial ideas are good. We used to live in Florida and Elephant Ears and caladiums both work well. You may want to condition the soil with sand so that it drains better...the ferns are also a great idea. You may also want to try to grow some Bromileads under the tree (these did quite well in Zone 9 for us) and my husband suggests getting a Stag Horn Fern to hang from one of the tree limbs and make sure you feed it banana peels. Good luck and make sure you send us some follow up posts!

Sundry,

How is your shade garden doing? I just caught this thread and many things come to my mind, your zone is not so far off from mine and the rain and humidity are much the same.

At my old house I had 2 large laurel oaks shading the front yard plus the house added to that shade. Maybe an hour of sun in the morning. Raised that bed only about 6 inches and held it in with stacked stones. I stayed about 5-6 feet away from the tree trunks and since the raised bed was centered between the trees, it did not circle the trunks. I didn't feel there was any danger of hurting the tree doing it this way. Without the raised bed, there was no digging to be done. The roots on these trees are immediately under the soil for a very long distance from the main trunks.

I had hostas in there too, but I think it wasn't the moisture that retarded their growth, I think it was the inability for them to dig their roots deep that kept them from flourishing. Now in my new yard, I can dig holes with the shovel (no roots) so now the hostas are doing much better.

Anyway, I had very good luck with EE's, Macho ferns(these will grow out of a tree trunk at times) caladiums for color, begonias, and coleus. You can get so many colors of coleus these days. In the winter while waiting on the caladiums to come back, I put in impatiens as annuals. They are putting out some lovely New Guinea impatiens that are prettier than the old standard. Dusty Miller did well and maybe for some late season blooms, japanese anemone.

Show us some pictures Sundry, we'd really like to see it.

Molly
:^)))

Cheri, If it were me, I would build a raised bed with stone, fill with rich soil, but not very large and not covering a large section of the tree roots. The tree's feeders go way out past the crown's drip line and so if you only build a small raised bed, you're not going to hurt that tree. Another alternative might be to try a ground cover such as Bishop's goutweed. It is more white than green and really can brighten deep shade. We use it here for erosion control, but it is lush when kept moist. You'd have to water it during dry periods. I'm in Oklahoma, so don't know what plants might be invasive in Louisiana. I just know that we build small berms/raised beds below trees all the time with great success and no harm to the trees if you don't take away a very large percentage of their root zones. My trees actually seemed to improve when gardens beneath provided them with more water, feedings than they would otherwise have had. Hope this helps a bit.

Hi, Cheri, I'm new to this forum but have seen several people I "know" from other forums! Two comments: (1) I've always heard that clematis likes to have its feet in the shade and its head in the sun. (2) In addition to Lady Fern, check out Cinnamon Fern (Osmunda cinnamomea). If availability of water isn't an issue in the dry periods, why not go for plants that like moist soil and then water when they need it? I've enjoyed all the responses you've received.
Greta in NC

How about the Marsh Marigold-Caltha palustris? It is supposed to survive in shade, part shade or sun and needs damp soil or even shallow water. Also Mimulus cardinalis-Scarlet Monkey Flower-might be a candidate. Dotti

I haven't been around for a while . . . thanx all for the suggestions. I had a bad winter and didn't do much gardening. As a result I've got a lot of cleaning up to do this spring.

This area is still a problem. The only thing surviving is the elephant ears. Unreal! This area has killed several Petasites that DG friends sent me, 3 Diffenbachia (we had a cold winter), caladiums . . . lots of things, I cant even remember. =( I planted so many different things there last year, it's so upsetting to see how little is still there.

I'm going to totally rethink this before I put anymore time or money into it. It's a nightmare spot!

Thank you all for your great suggestions!

Cheri'

You could try building a raised bed or using containers so you don't have to worry about the water problems? Shade can be worked with, but too much or not enough water is tougher.

A friend of mine grows hosta beautifully in her wetland bed. It's a natural way of filtering black water from the septic tank using 2 beds, the 1st lined, the 2nd unlined, filled with gravel. The plants are grown hydroponically on waste water and get huge, and it's in partial shade and full shade. I'm thinking if hostas will tolerate that much water, they should work in your problem area. I'd be happy to send you some tough ones for postage, then you could see if it works without investing in more plants. I have the varieties that my friend grows in her wetland bed, so they might work.

I think a raised bed is the only way, ecobioangie! I'm just not quite willing to do it . . . yet.

gemini_sage, my understanding is that hostas can take having their roots in water continuously, so long as the crown is above the water level. My problem is that the area floods often and regularly all summer long, submerging everything there. Although the water drains off within a day of the rain ending, it can rain for days and days here.

Hosta's in containers do well (and I have some there now) but planted in the ground they just drown. Nearly everything does, except the EE's.

This project is on a back burner, for now. =(

Cheri'

Sundry,
How's it going? I was thinking-is it possible to limb up some of the branches from the tree(s) in your yard to allow a little more light ? Also a couple of ideas on some plants that like dry shade: Epimediums, they make a nice ground cover over time and bloom in spring with beautiful little flowers. According to the plantfiles some are hard to Z9 and some are not. I was also thinking of a fern Polystichum acrostichoides (christmas fern) but according to plantfile it is only hardy to Z8. I don't know if that is true. As for Hosta I have good ol' Lancifolia' growing in dry shade in the woods and is only watered by nature and also some growing in a soggy wet area (in the woods) that stays wet 12 months of the year. They have lived in both spots for 13-14 years now. I know Lancifolia is not an exciting Hosta, but at least its something green.
another thought-what about painting the fence white. that would help reflect some light. (do they make white stain??)
another thought-burry your pots. They would help retain moisture, although that may not be good when the ground is saturated. Hmmm..... I would love to hear how your bed is coming along.
S

Shadyfolks - I've given up on this area for the time being. =(

It still looks a lot like it did in that pic. Just more Ears (they are doing their thing, spreading, taking over) and the camphor tree that used to be there keeps trying to come back. Everything else that I have planted there has died. The hostas in pots are doing ok. But that corner is just a nightmare, and it's not going to get better any time soon. LOL. It's been raining almost every day this month, but I'll try to get an updated picture soon.

I can't paint the fence white, it's the neighbor's fence. That would be too easy . . .

Here is my 'plan' of sorts. On the other side of the short fence (between the long fence and the house) is a stump, which blocks water from draining (I had a trash tree taken out - cherry, I think). I need to get that stump ground. That might happen next spring, if nothing else bad happens. Once that is done, I'll move the little fence toward the front of the house. That will let in a small amount of late afternoon sunlight. So, then the area might be less waterlogged and a little less dark. What happens next will depend on how well the water drains once the stump is removed.

I can see that hosta are doing well in pots there, so they should do well in a raised bed. I may be able to build a slightly raised bed (not more than 4 inches up, at least 5 ft away from that live oak) and plant some tough old hostas, like Lancifolia (great idea!), Ventricosa, maybe something variegated like Fortunei Aureomarginata.

Down that little alley next to the house is a tiny semi-sunny area where two crepe myrtles grow. I'd like to put a bench or a glider back there, creating a nice little hidden garden area (which happens to be right outside my bedroom window), and build a path to it around that corner. Perhaps the path itself could help facilitate drainage . . .

But none of this is going to happen right now. There is too much else going on in 'real life', so it'll just have to wait.

Cheri'

Well at least you keep thinking about it. Best of luck!

That sounds like a great plan. When it comes to big projects like that I like to take it in baby steps as time and finances allow, each step taking you closer to your goal. I'm really bad about getting discouraged and just ignoring problem areas like that, so I've found if I break it down into small steps I can accomplish and see results, that's insentive to continue. Good luck!

I sneaked out before the daily afternoon thunderstorm and took this pic. It looks a little more 'alive' than I remembered. =) There are more weeds than there used to be, anyway. And where did that caladium come from? LOL!

Seriously, I had planted a few caladiums in there last year, you can see the sole survivor in this pic.

there are a lot of tiny illustris EE's in there that you can't really see in this pic. I realize now that illustris was not the best choice of EE for this area. Too dark. =( I'll add more plain green ones this summer.

Cheri'

Well another thought how about putting in a stone patio and add color with a couple of chairs and table and then put your pots around....Even if you never sat there the area would look like it had a purpose. Just some thoughts to share and think about. I too would rather wait and study an area and try a few plants as tests befor jumping in. I would still ask the neighbor if you are on good terms with them. they may not mind if you paint fence, especially since it would help preserve it :)
Have a great summer and please keep us posted.
S