Basic Genetics ..101!

Whenever a zygote it formed it carries equal genes from both parents.
The father's (pollen parent) genes are just as effective as the mother (pod parent) in determining the phenotype of the offspring.
However, environment also has as much effect as genetics on the outcome.
Therefore, it is possible to get just about anything out of any cross.
And this isn't even considering chromosome breakage, gene crossing, etc.
There is no rule that states some trait can only come from one parent and not the other.

Absolutely untrue on all counts.

Though very interested, I have no clue what is what in genetics but I do know that a discussion with differing ideas can be held that respects all parties and belittles no one!!

I would think such discussions will benefit us all and encourage others to speak up and share their thoughts without fear of being embarrassed.

There is a lot Mendel never knew.

The sweeping statements and generalities posted twice by Abutilon as a response to our discussion:

"Whenever a zygote it formed it carries equal genes from both parents.
The father's (pollen parent) genes are just as effective as the mother (pod parent) in determining the phenotype of the offspring.
However, environment also has as much effect as genetics on the outcome.
Therefore, it is possible to get just about anything out of any cross.
And this isn't even considering chromosome breakage, gene crossing, etc.
There is no rule that states some trait can only come from one parent and not the other."

These are clearly not true in the experiences of many hybridizers working with many genera.

In my opinion, a discussion of one's personal experiences is most valuable.

I will not get into a further discussion on this subject, but encourage anyone interested to do their own research, and to read about what others have learned from their own experiments with hybridizing brugs. Clearly there are cultivars which have already proven themselves to be good pod or pollen parents, and which will transmit certain desirable traits to their offspring more frequently when used as one parent than the other.

Yeah, what John said LOL, I do agree with him, I am not 100% sure about brug genetics yet... nobody is, but I, as well as a lot of other people will be as John was saying, doing our own experimentation, and that will lead us to the "rules" of brug color combos.

I could say more, also ..but will not be drawn into arguing with John or anyone else.
I have no taste to do.
There are very few 'absolutes' in the world. That we are born, live, die, and pay taxes ..I think is it.
'Absolutes' in nature, even less.

I have hybridized a long time. Other plants prior to brugmansia.
I draw from my own experiences and others I have been fortunate to be part.

One hybridizer friend told me a long ago, when you breed for excellence, you can expect excellence.
But same cross, you will also get many unworthies.
All hybridizers know that true.
Same hybridizer said the 'wild card' ..you don't know where it came from and not expected,
but if ever you are lucky to get .. is what will make your heart do flip-flops.
In my own experiences, that has been right, also.

As this is the USA and Dave's a somewhat public forum (answerable only to Dave, I would think) ..
who I have always given the highest respect .. as well as everyone and here the highest respect ..
The referred to post above is Sue's. And this one mine.
I did not think responding in 'our discussions' wrong to do.

Abutilon, not out for a fight, I was just saying you are not going to get a double red from CGxclare mills, also, monika, and other top brugmansia hybredizers all agree that the parent pod has more of an influince on the seedlings then the parent plant. Like, you will get more doubles from CDWxEP then you would EPxCDW.

I don't think Alice was trying to imply you'd get a double red from a cross of single gold & white flowers. In fact... I don't see where anything stated can be deemed untrue. Even in Mendel's pea experiments the F1 cross carries the genes of both parents. The dominant genes being visible in the F1, the recessive genes brought forth in the F2. Monika has said over and over in this forum that every seed in a cross should be grown out because there may only be one worthy offspring in an entire pod.

With most brugs we don't know the background of the hybrid. Even when we know parents we don't know grandparents and it's generations before. Just because you cross a red mom and a white dad does not mean you'll get pink babies. There are no set rules. White would be the dominant gene in the cross (whether it be mom or dad), but recessive genes maybe brought forth as well. 99% of the offspring might be white but there might be a "wild card" in the cross too. As Alice said... anything is possible.

Thanks, Sue. And Kell, thank you, too.
For your insights beyond the others.
And for your courage to repond here.
It is appreciated (o:

No one should need courage to post to a thread on a brug forum which is supposed to be a fun hobby for us all. When we feel like that, it is a clue that we all need to remember our Sunday manners!


Alice, I just wish I could be as smart as you and Sue are!

Well, I have the courage, just don't want to speak out on something I don't know much about. I do my own trial and errors on hybridizing.

Still learning lots from all of you.

Thanks

I am not near as knowledgeable or experienced as Alice, Poppysue Monika or Kell (yes, Kell you have learned much) but I do know that we should not make point-blank condenscending remarks of a person's expressing their opinion that is based on their knowledge and their own experience.

Kell is correct. We should stop and think before we respond and good manners should be imperative on a forum such as Dave's. I really enjoy coming and visiting here but it disturbs me when a person is treated as an insignificant person. I was not raised nor treated in that manner and I have a low tollerance for it . . especially from grown adults.

I am a person that believes that we can learn something from everyone on the face of the earth. Let's have fun and enjoy it here because that is what part of Dave's is about.
I like to visit and forget about my problems. There are so many of you that I respect and admire.

Brugnanny

Sorry,that my post comes so late. I wanted to reply earlier but forgot it about other things. My english is not that good, that I could easy write down my thoughts on this subject.
I fully agree with poppysue. I read Alice thread the same way as she did. I dont need to add anything further to poppysues post.

monika, you wrote about variegated brugs:

"Apparently, the trait (if I may say so), in Brugmansias is carried by the mother plant. We once had seeds from a variegated Tiara. The seedlings were all white."

Variegation has little to do with the basic genetic pattern.
Up to now, we dont even know, what is causing the variegation in known Brugmansias. Meristem propagation of variegated plants showed some interesting results.

This message was edited Dec 23, 2003 4:20 AM

Monika, you wrote about double brug seedlings:

" The percentage of getting a good double out of a single mother and double fl. father is smaller than by using a double fl. mother but it is possible."

So, do we agree that certain traits are more likely to be transmitted by the pod parent than by the pollen parent? In other words, the "phenotype" (what the plant looks like)may be determined more by mother plant when it comes to certain specific traits?

Dear John [Pardancanda],
I have resented your trashing this very well intention post of mine to where it became nothing.
You don't even know me. You have no idea to what my knowledge level is.
But you were very rude to me publicly.
I have many private emails besides the posts here.
No one has liked what you did.

Now you are into picking on Monika at MY thread.
I DO know the reasons behind that ..and has nothing to do with me.
As I have always stayed apart from brug politics. And will always start apart.
But I will not let you continue to trash people here.

Due to you that last days .. Dave's has not been much fun for me.
I have thought to quit the brug forum. I have thought to never post again.
My feelings have always been Dave's is supposed to be a learning forum and friends.
It does say 'Brugmansias and Friends' at the top!!!
I see no friendship here in you to me or anyone else.
And I see no higher knowledge level in you for a position above to judge others' good knowledge.

If the atmosphere of this thread doesn't change from here on ..
I am going to ask Dave to lock or remove it from the forum.

In the spirit of the Holidays .. Peace, Joy, and Love
Merry Christmas to All!

Alice Harris [Abutilon]

Dear Alice/Abutilon,

Have you asked yourself WHY I made the statement that your remarks were untrue?

This began on poppysue's thread about her white seedlings. Members were discussing their experiences as to the heredity of this trait. You discounted these experiences with the statement you made.

And not once, but twice. I did not see the need to start a second thread on the same subject, professing to offer us all a bit of 'basic' genetics put forth as facts, not opinions, and in contradiction of the experiences we shared.

I do not know why you presume to speak for "everyone", and I believe I contradicted your facts, without turning it into the personal matter you seem to have made it.

Monika has given information I feel useful to this discussion. She is a most respected hybridizer, and I would not 'pick' on her, as you subjectively call my asking for clarification.

I resent your personal attacks, and feel they have no place on this forum. I regret the need to have responded to such.

John

Maybe John, she feels that way because you posted one sentence and in that sentence you called her a liar.

I do not understand your strong feelings about this at all. Why would it matter to you if Alice or anyone started 20 threads on this same subject. We are all free to read or not to read them, agree or not agree, respond or not respond to them. Please start your own thread and call it Basic Genetics 101 and feel free to post whatever you feel you want to share.

This is Christmas and I can't believe among us all sharing warm feelings you feel so strongly about genetics that you persist in making some of us uncomfortable and unhappy. I think most of us are here for the friendly company even more than for the cold bare facts of brugmansia growing.

I wish you a Merry Christmas John and hope you will rethink this and let it go. Do you really want Alice to quit over this? I for one have enjoyed her posts here immensely and feel it would be a great loss if she continues to feel ridiculed and belittled and decides to leave!

Alice, you are a valuable member of our community. Please continue to stay and share with us.

Amen!! Tis the season to be jolly!!

A peaceful and merry Christmas!

We all hope so! With the terrorist threats hanging over us all, these are just minor disagreements.

Have a merry Christmas everyone.

This message was edited Dec 23, 2003 6:43 PM

I enjoy hearing from everyone. I don't like bickering or hard feelings. I know nothing of hybridizing, am just learning about growing. I have learned so much from you all. I would miss Alice's posts, and Johns too. Calla doesn't post much lately, I miss her too. xoxo

Happy Christmas to all....

Love

Ludger

Nothing is an exact science,and I am interested in everyones experiences,and I hate to see someone being afraid to post something that I may learn from, because they might get snapped at or told they are wrong.

I try not to post much anymore because I have seen too many people ,good people,get blasted for something they've said,and I don't feel like getting blasted,if I wanted to listen to fighting I'd take out my ear plugs and start listening to what Chuck is yelling.....

This use to be the best place on earth,but good things seldom last.......

think before you type.........

Awww..Karyn, does Chuck really yell at you? Maybe we should have a talk with that young man!

kell said "Maybe John, she feels that way because you posted one sentence and in that sentence you called her a liar".

Perfect example of what I am saying. I indicated that what Alice posted was not true. There is a huge difference between that and personal attacks and name calling.

Once more, I felt that Alice's posting discounted our discussions in too strong terms.

An appropriate response to my heavy handed reply might have been a request for more information, or clarification.

My personal opinion is that one's experiences are of most value. My own thought was to allow people to share such experiences without having someone feel the need to give them a "lesson" in "basics".

In the spirit of the season, I hereby apologize to all concerned for being the cause of this unpleasantness.

Alice, especially to you, I regret my overly strong words, and did not mean them to cause the bad feelings they did.

My wish is for all Brugmansia gardeners to be able to share our experiences and to learn from one another.

With best wishes for a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

John/Pardancanda

Thank you, John.
I am never a person to make enemies, and have felt very bad about all of this.
Whatever wrong to take from this post, it was never intentional.
I am sorry negative came from it. And that it affected you to react.
It was never meant to do.

I only want good things here and at other forums we both are.
I appreciate much we can go on from this with good feelings.

A very Merry Christmas to you especially (o:
And to everyone here Dave's Garden!

Alice

Yay....this is so good..hey alice got any coffee??? I brought cake (-:

(((Alice)))
(((John)))

§

Thank you, Alice. Now let's all enjoy a Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

OH NO. It is daytime and soon I must go out in this storm and buy some presents!! It is only 8 AM here! I have all day to shop!! HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

Happy ending........Happy holidays everyone.

Merry Christmas to all!!!!