We have hard, nasty clay soil in between limestone boulders that sometimes rise to the surface. I'd really like to see us get a better stand of grass in our front yard and in the back yard just off the deck. (The rest of the acre-plus may have to fend for itself...)
I've been reading that humic acid/humates can actually improve soil structure. Truth or fiction? If so, is fall an okay time to put it down, or should we wait until spring?
Humic acid - does it really improve soil?
This might be helpful . . .
http://www.greensmiths.com/humic.htm
I'm taking another stab at this. I'm very tempted to get some humic acid and apply to our front lawn this spring. Is there an optimal time of year to apply it?
This is my take on it..
Good garden soil does not come in a bottle. There are no "magic potions" ...
The best way to improve garden soil is to add OM (organic matter). Organic matter will eventually break down into humus, which can best be described as the end station for organic matter. However humates are a long way comming and there seems to be a lot of discussions related to when OM really reaches the stage of humus.
Humus has the ability to bind large particles together, hold water, and fertilizer nutrients, and break up clay particles. However, just as usefull is the decomposition process of organic matter as it (in it's less decomposed stage compared to humus) also holds moisture, fertilizer, and continously shifts the soil particles to allow air, and drainage. Just adding "humic acid" is no replacement for organic matter in the ground.
I personally believe that humic acid sold to be added to lawns are gardens can be added to the thousand of "wonder products" you can buy via mail order and delivered every weekend through your mail slot.. you know the type of magazine "as seen on tv, no more work, as easy as... can only be purchase here..."
I am not a subscriber to the whole A35-Nitron/Humates idea (Can you tell ??). I consider it a scam
This message was edited Apr 14, 2005 10:35 AM
I would say that the organic matter is the best.. Can't go wrong !! Happy Spring.
Humic and Fulvic acids can indeed improve soil quality under certain circumstances. However, I'm with kdjoergensen on this. The very best way to improve soils (and increase humic and fulvic acids) is adding frequent compost to soils. Many of these products are derived from rutile sands or are minerals themselves, ie; chlorite. And then some of them are derived/ harvested from lignites which can throw a ton of hydrocarbons into soils that aren't prepared for them.
I order to increase tilth, it is never a bad idea to add OM, and if you are a little "antsy" to open up a garden space 'double digging' or cross-ripping/ roto-tilling in as much OM as one can afford is always a good idea. If you want to speed up the process and kick start the micro organisms that turn compost into humus add a spraying of molassas [sic?]. The natural sugars will give the soil biology a real kick in the toosh, getting them going. Black strap is best, but if your soils are acidic, get unsulphured.
There are some 'magic potions' for soil that actually work, but they are few and far between. The organic industry has been invaded by the descendents of those snake oil salespeople from the 19th century...lol, and you'll almost never go wrong with compost.
Good luck to you Terry
Well, I think I've taken over just about as much of the front lawn with beds as I dare. (DH and the neighbors would not be happy if I dug up the whole thing. I agree that OM is great...but putting it down on an established (cool-season/fescue) lawn presents some challenges. I'm not going to convince DH to till up the entire front yard (forget double-digging) and the fear of killing the grass through smothering it with compost is a little unnerving.
That's why I was hoping that something (whether humic acid, or something else) could be applied...
I occasionally drop in on the lawn forum over on Garden Web. I have pulled a lot of great info from that site and it has started me towards a program to improve my lawn. I am not looking for a "golf course quality" lawn, but something that looks decent. I have been going organic to help improve my clay soil and so that I don't have to worry about harming the kids or pets.
What I have done so far: Last fall I reseeded my shady backyard (1,500 sq ft), spread about a yard of compost, and fertilized with 50# of alfalfa pellets. This spring I treated my entire lawn (2,500 sq ft) with Nitron A-35 and fertilized with 50# of alfalfa pellets. I plan on 3 more applications of Nitron this year. I might fertilize again this month with alfalfa, corn meal or Ringer Lawn Restore. In the fall I hope to spread 2 yards of compost and fertilize at least twice. (btw, you won't smother your lawn with 1/4" of compost!) Maybe I will aerate.
I have seen great improvements in my garden beds by adding compost; it only makes sense that it will improve the lawn. Organic fertilizers also seem like a great way to fertilize the lawn and feed the soil at the same time. Feed products are pretty cheap and by the time I got my spreader out and tuned in for Scotts fertilizer, I could have already flung 50# of alfalfa on my small yard.
It is too early in my program to call it a success, but my backyard is definitely in better shape this year than last. I have more weeds, but they are manageable. Is it in better shape because of the compost, the new seed, the alfalfa or the Nitron? I don't know if I will ever know. I have read enough good stuff about Nitron A-35 that I did not mind spending the $50 to get a gallon to try it out and it only took about 15 minutes to apply.
Okay...I have rambled on and never said anything about Humic Acid. Probably mowing high with a mulching mower (I have done this for many years) and fertilizing heavily in the fall (I almost never did this) are the most important steps. I seldom water my lawn, but I can see where the "water infrequently and deeply" advice would help. From there compost and organic matter can only make things better. I cannot really say if Nitron A-35 is needed or even helps.
- Brent
Brent, did you buy alfalfa pellets from a feed store? I do, and I'm trying to figure out if I could use our spreader for them, as they're pretty good sized. We have a spreader attachment for our riding mower as well as a regular ole' push model - and we have roughly 3/4 of an acre of lawn to cover. I hadn't thought of using alfalfa pellets on the lawn, although I do use them for a "home brew" I feed my plants ;o)
The other problem I've had with OM, specifically compost, is that it's high in weed content. Yes, I make my own, but we don't produce enough for me to put down on the whole lawn. And yes, we chop and compost our leaves, our neighbor's leaves, my MIL's leaves....basically any and all I can scrounge each fall. Clay soil seems to gobble up whatever I put on it and then return to its bricklike state. Grrr...
The compost I get for nearly-free from a local horse farmer is less weedy than the high-priced stuff from the nursery center. But they're both going to have weed seeds in them.) I can buy bagged mushroom compost, which is GREAT stuff and I go through many, many bags each year - for $3-$4 per 40-pound bag. That gets expensive in a hurry for big applications - although it's weed-seed-free.
I have been buying alfalfa at a TSC (Tractor Supply Company) store. My lawn is small enough that I found I can fling the pellets around in about 15 minutes. I just have a drop spreader which I am pretty sure would not handle the pellets.
The compost that I spread last fall was bagged. It may have been the source of the Henbit weeds that I am seeing this spring, but I have not noticed too many new weeds. This fall I hope to get 3 or 4 yards of bulk compost delivered so I can use it on my gardens and yard. Yep, once you start to learn the benefits of compost, you need a pretty significant home composting setup to meet the demand.
- Brent
Terry, you could top dress your lawn with a thin layer of composted manure or the like and it wouldn't smother the lawn. I fertilize frequently with cottonseed meal, bought at the feed store, and can put it out with a fertilizer spreader.
Terry, if you're still following this thread, I'll add some thoughts.
Clay is actually a good soil type for fescue. If you're having problems with your grass not meeting your expectations, maybe there is another problem. You didn't say what the problem was. Is it not thick enough, green enough? Brown patches?
Have you had the soil tested to see if there are specific nutrient deficiencies?
How bad is the clay--do you have a problem with water running off before it absorbs deeply enough?
You probably know this, but being a cool season grass, fescue shouldn't be fertilized in hot weather. Also, it doesn't like to be mowed short.
In our area--very hot and arid--fescue likes to be watered frequently when the temps are high. Never mind the advice to water deeply and less frequently, let your grass tell you when it needs a drink. Do you know the footprint test? If footprints leave an impression in the grass, it's time to water.
How high do you mow? Fescue likes to be a bit tall--about 2.5-3". Rule of thumb is to only remove 1/3 of its height in a single mowing. Do you use a mulching mower? Leaving the grass clippings on your lawn can actually provide about 1/3 your lawn's fertilizer needs, and using a mulching mower is a neat way to do it. But I bet you knew all that!
You didn't say specifically what kind of fescue you have, but I think all these comments are fairly general for this type turf.
If your turf just doesn't seem thick enough, you might need to seed in some more. Around here fescue doesn't spread. If there are bare spots, more seed needs to be sown.
If there are brown spots, you might have a disease or a nutrient deficiency or you might be applying fert when the temp is too high.
Your state hort department might do soil testing for free.
Just my thoughts --Pen
Thanks, pennzer
We aerated the soil this spring, which seems to have helped a little with the compaction problem. A mulching mower has been used on it since we moved in five years ago. (It's what we've always used on our lawns.) Footprint test, check. Mowing height, check. Our younger son took turf management as an easy-to-pass class this past year, so he is actually fairly well-versed in lawncare, although he doesn't always like hands-on application of what he learned.
The soil here is terribly clayish and thin (and I *know* clay from living and gardening in the south and southern plains for 20-some years now ;o) My guess would be that we have a couple feet of soil (maximum) before you hit limestone bedrock. In many places, the rock is exposed. The ground tends to dry out and crack quickly when we dont' have regular rain, and it doesn't drain well when we are blessed with some water from above.
I suspect the previous owners did little if anything (in the 20 years they lived here) to improve the soil or lawn - pretty much whatever grew was mowed, and that was that. The front lawn is gradually responding to our efforts (we eradicated several large patches of creeping charlie this spring, then patched them with a fescue blend.)
Terry, I figured you knew all of that but had to mention what I have learned. I am a real estate broker and for many years have been called on to manage and care for vacant homes, and turf management is always critical--especially the fescues because they can go down fast. I do well on the ones with sprinkler systems, but the ones with fescue that had to be hand watered were by far the most difficult, especially in the summer heat.
I would second the recommendation to broadcast alf pellets on your lawn, and that would be a good place to dump the slurry left over from your teas.
I have a patio house--no lawn--but a couple months ago I dumped some slurry from a big batch of alf tea on some grass growing in my neighbor's alley. I purposely put it all in one small area so I could observe the difference in treated vs. untreated. Understand that the "soil" in our alley is thin, rocky and on a caliche base. We have been in a drought since I did this, and this guy does not water his alley. Today the treated area is about 3x as tall as the surrounding grass, and it's thicker and greener. It seems that as well as giving it a growth boost it has also given it some drought protection! The grass is bermuda, but I would think fescue would like it, too.
I never cease to be amazed at what alfalfa does for plants and soil. Most people think of it as a plant food, but it is also a soil food. If you try this on your lawn, please let us know what results you observe.
Good luck on your turf and soil challenge.