7b clay clay clay

Thinking about landscaping plans, I'm faced with a field of hard, stickie clay. Does grass really grow in this "soil"? (I use parentheses mainly out of sarcasm .... ickie clay) In the pre-planning stages, can I honestly plan on the grass sod and seed growing? How do I prepare the soil for planting trees, bushes, and flowers? I don't want to do raised beds, and also don't enjoy the thought of having to modify the entire yard, but will if I must.

Hoping for suggestions ...
TIA,
-Jennifer

Depends on the grass. Bermuda grass will grow on concrete. (can you tell I spend hours trying to kill it?) lol There are many 'invasive' plants that will do well, and yet be under control, in icky clay soil. Otherwise, you will HAVE to double dig and amend your soil. It's a lot of really hard work, but when you see what a difference it makes you'll be out there sweating away.

Okay-then... gee, angie,... *smirk* >. tell me how you *really* feel.. :)

In all honesty, I certainly don't want to have to talk to my grass to get it to grow. I don't think I get a choice on grass... I was mainly asking in sarcasm ..

My main concern is what needs to be done to the "soil" ;) before I can put any sort of flowering plants in it.

Please elaborate on this "double digging" theory.. I didn't grow up in a "double dig" environment .. To me , planting has always been just that ... very little soil amendment needed.

:) Thanks,
-Jennifer

I got out with just me and my shovel (some people use tillers). Take out all unwanted stuff like grass, roots and all. Sometimes you will have to use herbicides or smother it with newspapers, etc. Then get digging. First go down a shovel full deep and remove all the rocks bigger than your fist, etc. Then go down once more deeper. Once this is all dug up, put in a good 2-3" layer of composted manure and humus. This will keep the soil from recompacting and add drainage and water retention at the same time. Great stuff really. I also add some balanced granular all purpose fertilizer and some clay cutter powder(lime), however much the bag says. Re-shovel to turn it all in like tossing a salad. Rake smooth and cover with 2-3" of shredded mulch. Make paths through big beds just so you don't have to walk in your new fluffy planting areas to reach the plants. Walk in it as little as you can. Install drip lines or soaker hoses before you lay the mulch if you can. Otherwise just water regularly. Your plants will grow like weeds. :)

AngelSong

Grass grows well on clay as long as the drainage is there and that's the key to growing anything on clay soil. Capped soil (forms a crust so the water doesn't drain) is a problem for many soils as is compaction of the top or sub soil. The only way to get around that on clay soils is to use boards or paths when the soil is wet.

Why clay is seen by many as the most awful soil is something I've never quite understood. OK it's heavy to dig, liable to compaction just by staring at it for more than 3 minutes and therefore tends not to drain quickly. That's the cons, the pros are a good, moisture retentive, fertile soil that anchors roots well. That sounds much more like gardening soil to me! While sandy soil is easy to dig, you can grow a good deal more in clay soils.

Anyone who gardens or farms on clay has their own methods. How clayey is your soil? It's rare to have pure clay, if you do then maybe a brick making or pottery business would be a better option than a garden *G* (I worked on a farm that had a field called Brickhill, for exactly that reason). Very often we're faced with a loam (mixture of soils) with varying degrees of clay.

Double digging is fine, although your back will scream blue murder and the muscles will try hard to escape out of the skin but it's a good way to get your compost down a couple of feet as long as it's not a regular thing (soil compaction again). Leaving the dug soil fallow for the winter will enable to frost to break up some of the bigger clods to produce a more friable soil. A low input of work solution is to simply sow a green manure as a winter cover crop and let that work it's magic, as long as you choose one that isn't invasive in your region. Plants with strong root systems can help break clay too, potatoes are used for turning old pasture leys into other crop growing fields. You will get volunteers coming up but surprise potatoes aren't always a bad thing!

Some people swear by adding sand and gravel, personally we swear at it. We tried that in the first year, it all sank, in fact, 4 years on, the hardcore rubble and gravel path is only detectable by putting a shovel in about 6 inches. Sand alone can cause your soil to turn into something similar to concrete if you have a very heavy soil.

Adding lime, encourages the clay particles to stick together to form larger crumbs (flocculation) at the very top level of the soil but no deeper, you will also have to test your soil pH for a while after. It doesn't make a great deal of difference but Rhododendrons might complain.

Our own way of dealing with it was to dig the whole lot over and incorporate various composts (and that gravel) in the first year. We then planted it densely to cover the soil as much as possible. The dead and decaying plant bits said their thanks to the soil for the food received. We use no chemicals, we don't dig often, we spread some compost and we plant closely.

Last year I had occasion to dig again for the first time in 7 years, the soil was very much improved and now supports a good deal more than it did in those first few years. OK, it's still clayey, it still lays wet in winter and it's never going to be ideal but what soil is? As much as I may complain, I wouldn't swap a lb of our clay for a ton of sandy loam.

This message was edited Saturday, Jul 19th 5:07 AM

I seen this thursday but didn't have time to answer and have though about it off and on If it was me i think i'd losen the soil just enough to plant buck wheat then till it in come fall this will losen the soil and put clover and winter wheat in this fall by spring it should be lose enough to to work some and then put in your compost and start to plant your garden

Baa - :) You like clay .... Well, at some point, I'll have to share one of my pictures of this awful think mucky goo. It's soo red-orange, and completely not like the "dirt" I'm used to seeing.

dave719 - I don't know that I want to plant that many different things .. I'm only going to make a few beds, and would rather dig up the clay and get top soil brought in .. might be less hassle..... if I had acres and acres, your idea would make a lot of sense.

I realize now grass won't be so much of a problem ... My larger concern is convincing perennial and annual flowers that they want to grow and bloom in their soil conditions. :)

Thanks!
-Jennifer

You can fight it or you can work with it, there are plenty of plants that like clay.

Try raised beds willed with stable/barn cleanings, shredded leaves, kitchen scraps, lawn clippings, spent(used)potting soil, peat moss, etc. We framed ours with concrete blocks. Most are 4' X 26'. We tilled before making some of the raised beds but not others. Can't really see a difference.

Angelsong, we have zoysia, and my DH laid the sod over unworked, unloosened packed clay. some of it just barely lived for years until he learned and aerated it some and this year he fed it. It's the most gorgeous lawn, it's like a blanket beneath your feet. We don't have to water it, it doesn't grow tall so we mostly cut for the weed areas we still have and it's dark green and lush.
it does go dormant in the winter, but doesn't look bad to me.
if you had loosened clay or just semi-packed, I would certainly recommend it, we have no amendments in the grass area.

I also live in Greenville so I know what you mean when you say red clay... If you just want to plant some trees and bushes you can just dig a big hole and enstead of filling it back in with red dirt fill it in with compost and top soil. This is what we did and all of our trees and bushes are doing great. I do the same for flowers. After I dig out all the weeds and BERMUDA grass I throw in a couple of bags of top soil and some compost and plant. Its not really a raised bed because Im just replacing the space the weeds took up. I have not had any problem growing anything in my yard.I use so much compost that my pile can't keep up with me. I buy alot of mushroom compost... STINKY but wonderfull!

We have the same red goo. Our solution has been to just pile the stuff UP lasagna-gardening style. Shredded bark, leaves, sand, spent potting soil, perlite, manure, grass clippings, just spread 2' high over folded newspapers. Add permatill aggregate or sharp gravel if you have a vole problem. And that is it. Don't bother to dig. After 2 years it will compact to 1' of nice, draining soil and you just add mulch and some fresh manure every spring.

The first year you do it it's easier to use annuals like cosmos, cleome, nicotiana, etc to get some vigorous root action to establish the tilth (along with the worms you'll be getting). By year 2 you can plant anything. RJ

We don't have clayey soil but I did want to add that the prof that lead our Master Gardener workshop on soil showed us how gypsum breaks apart the clay ions or whatever they're called so that water penetrates it and doesn't pond. There was a thread on this in another forum just last week but I'm not sure where. Sorry, maybe I can find it, I'll try! :) (he said just broadcast the gypsum)

edited to add: I found the thread - it is "Hi from Massachusetts" in the Welcome Mat forum. I'm not sure how to do a hyperlink on DG - have done it on the net. sorry!

This message was edited Mar 10, 2004 9:35 PM

No Bermuda grass! No! No! No!!!!!!! We have Bermuda grass and it had long ago escaped the lawn area and become a major weed in the flower beds and garden. Not only that, it turns brown in the winter. Actually, the Bermuda in the lawn turned brown. The stuff in the flower beds stayed green, out of sheer cussedness, I'm sure. We have managed to get rid of the Bermuda in the lawn and now have something much nicer. I think it is a form of fescue. Maybe the new hybrid Bermudas are o.k., but the old stuff we had wasn't worth a nickel. (The woman next door says that our house originally had a dichondra lawn that was later invaded by Bermuda grass. We still have dichondra come up when we remove grass.) Also, its supposed drought-tolerance was way overrated. I don't think there was any other plant in the yard that we referred to as "evil".

As for the clay, I have not noticed that gypsum or compost does a whole lot in the long run, though I've never added a huge amount of stuff at anyone one time. I've learned to live with the clay, rather than fight it. This means not planting things that don't like clay, and there don't seem to be many plants that fall into that category anyways. I don't know how all clay soils are, but ours is very fertile and the water-retentiveness is very desirable in this climate.

Remember, Bermuda grass is evil. ;-)

We also had clay to deal with, and were putting in new flower beds. First we rented a sod cutter and removed all the grass. Then we rented a rear tine tiller and ordered a mixture of expanded shale, and compost from Living Earth in bulk, and tilled it all in together. It was a chore, but necesary to have the plant health we wanted. It is paying off already. Expanded shale will permanently amend compacted clay soils. Living Earth will deliver all sorts of garden stuff in bulk cheaper than bagged. I think the site is www.livingearth.net

This message was edited Mar 22, 2004 10:34 PM

AngelSong- I have been to Greenville- really cute town. And of the soil you speak of- I brought a baggie full of it home just so when I complain about my Ohio clay I can look at SC soil and realize I don't have it so bad. Seriously! Greenville has the reddest soil I have ever seen- it's like Mars!
I feel for you.

Davena

Grass, Clay...
We have caliche, kinda clay-like, but not reddish, just harder than heck, desert dirt....most everybody i know with lawns, has what we call bermuda, it'll grow in this soil, no problem, as long as it's irrigated or watered in the summer. In the winter...they usually, shave it all the way down, and put a layer of steer manure, and sow rye grass. These are only observations, i'm not a grass person. I too have been digging it up forever.

This message was edited Aug 2, 2004 2:02 PM

I'd also have to vote against Bermudagrass. Yes, it grows fast. Yes, it tolerates clay soil. But those same characteristics are also what make it so thuggish.

If you're still tempted, let me express my thoughts on Bermadagrass this way. Imagine bringing home a cute little 10-pound pug puppy that you think will stay little and cute. The very next morning you wake up to find you are the proud owner of a massive, snarling 150 pound rabid brute that looks and acts like Cujo (read Stephen Kings' book if you don't know what I'm talking about.) That's how it is with Bermudagrass. Don't bring it home, please - for the sake of your shrubs, trees and any flowerbeds you *might* want to have.

Bermuda? No, no, no, no,no! Disgusting weed!! "Cujo" describes it perfectley!

I'm about 30 miles northwest of you and I have lots of lovely red clay also. When I plant I just did a much bigger hole than I need and refill with compost/peat moss/etc. After about 20 years worth of horse/chicken and goat manure, I acutally have a few beds that are not all RED !
charlotte

In 2 years, I turned out new home's heavy compact clay into soil that I could shove a 1.5 inch diameter blunt bamboo pole into 14" with my bare hands. In fact 8 poles shoved 14" in - to grow my scarlet runner beans on.

And I shoved those into the soil in May without rototilling the soil which sat through an entire autumn and winter of rain.

All I did, was work some organic matter into it.

Clay is primo soil when ammended.

I can relate to SC soil, I didn't know how bad it really was until I planted a camelia last April for my Aunt that she had potted. It's worse than here! However, our topsoil has much less organic material, but it goes deeper (in places that haven't been backfilled--arrg!). It was a humbling experience, and atleast the soil seems easier to ammend here.