Insects in Brug seeds!

I just opened a few seeds that my daughter Amber accidentally dug up and they were infested with insects. Tiny larva that looked like worms. I don't know what they are, but I have found these in my own seeds before when the mother plant had not been treated with an insecticide in a while. So for those trading seeds we might want to think of soaking seeds in a light systemic upon first picking them if one is not sure when the last time one treated the mother plant. Seeds generally look very normal and one can often peel them and find everything inside looks normal. Upon peeling the skin off a few days to weeks later one can find from one insect to several eating happily away. Hope this helps everyone in some way. I for one will treat my own trees a bit more heavily with a systemic a few weeks prior to picking any fruit. These were not from my seed by the way nor were they from BGI. These were from a friend, but like I've said, these things will happen to the best of us from time to time. Especially when seed pods are left on too long or at least thats been my experience

Thank you for stating this! Quite a few seeds that I got last year, had the worms in them and I had 0% germination, this is what I found when I dug seeds up to see why they were not starting. Since then, I put insecticide powder in plastic envelope seeds are in, even if they were sent to me. So far, so good, no more problems.

Ok, I have to ask :)
Whose that in that picture? It's a nice picture, with all those brugs around it :)

Eric, It seems some of us had this problem last winter.
http://davesgarden.com/t/369919/

Eric, great shot!!!
I must have gotten lucky with the seeds I had (come to think of it, they were yours (!!) via TIG....lol)

The seeds were from me, I've sent my seeds to the University of Tennessee three times and finally sent them to the Dept of Agriculture in Nashville for testing(this was several months ago). They found no bugs, but in the seeds that were removed from the soil with little worms in them, they said the "worms" were fungus gnat larvae. I peel and germinate all my seeds on wet paper towels sealed in baggies. I have found no worms and got better than 90% germination, but the ones germinated in potting soil, I found lots of the little "worms" and the germination was poor. The University said the larvae first invade the "husk" of the seed, then work their way to the inside, so peeling should solve this problem.
I use Marrathon(imidicloprid) on all my brugs. It's a systemic and lasts 90 days. I use it to keep aphids and whitefly off the brugs.
The University did find surface fungi on the seed coats and recommended a 10% bleach dip. I asked another group to experiment with peeling and then the bleach dip alongside not peeling or dipping. The germination of the unpeeled/undipped seeds was about 20%, the germination of the peeled/bleach dipped seeds was 90%. We tested several hundred seeds.
edited to add: The University said the empty seeds were empty from the start, incomplete fertilization of the ovary. It happens with some plants. The seed matures like normal because there are enough plant hormones from the "good" seeds to keep them growing but there is no embryo inside.


This message was edited Sunday, Jun 22nd 8:20 PM

Susie, that may explain why all of my seeds germinated, I had peeled every single one of them, and then was told that it wasnt necessary to peel, I am glad that you have given us proof that peeling is a good thing...and I think that when I am ready to start my Brug seeds in Turkey, i will try the paper towel method, as I am taking a limited amount of seeds and wouldnt want to loose any.
thanks for your insight.

Pebble, do the 10% bleach dip too. I've found it works great, no fungus to attack the baby seeds or seedlings. One part bleach to nine parts water, you can dip for a few minutes or leave longer if you like.

Gee Cala, I do not think they were talking about your seeds, for everyone in the BBGA reported incredible success with all of the special seeds you shared. LOL. Look at all of Tracey's super bruglings from your seeds!

thanks Cala, I will definately go with the 10% bleach dip. Wonder if they have clorox in turkey??

Susie, thanks for the info. i had that problem too, with my seeds. guess i'll do the dip. do you think sterile soil would help? but then again, i have great luck throwing seed pods on the ground in the fall, lol. i have fever of paper towel starting, may be i should practice on some unfavorite seeds.
What an All American Picture..... our favorite Brugman, Brugmansia, Eric.

Ms Kell, they must have done the bleach dip at BGHA, i guess. No offense intended to anyone, but of 3-4 people i know, only 1 person had a couple come up, couple others had 1 come up. when i find mine i am going to bleach them and plant them!

I had about 150 seeds from Rosamond X Butterfly and only got 5 of them to grow. Dang little critters were getting fat on them. Must say that the ones that grew had not been treated, but I did peel them. Most were not peeled. Think I'm going to go with the paper towel and baggie method from now on.

OK, I'm doing an experiment. I peeled a bunch(all I could hold in my hand) of Butterfly X L'Amour, Rosamond X L'Amour and L'Amour X Butterfly. I wrapped these in a wet papertowel and placed them in a sealed baggie. I also took a handfull of each of the three crosses unpeeled, wrapped them in wet paper towels and placed in a sealed baggie. I will check them every 5 days to see if there are "critters" eating them and take a picture of them(plus send them to the University to see what they are)if there are insects found.
There is no way for fungus gnats to get inside the sealed baggie and the paper towels are new, fresh off the roll, so if critters are found, they had to be in the seeds.
Just a note, lots of the seeds had no seed inside, about 20-25% empty seeds. Some varieties seem to have more empty seeds. I picked a Maya pod and 99% of the seeds were empty. There had never been a "bean" inside the husk. I picked another Maya pod(growing on the same limb) and most of the seeds were good. When I pick a brug pod, I take 10 seeds at random and open them. If lots of them(or all of them) are empty, I take more seeds and check. I learned to do this after so many of the Rosamond seeds were empty.
According to my professor friend, many species are like that, the seed looks good but no embryo inside. Gerbera Daisies are really bad for empty seeds(even from a commercial seed supplier)

I peeled all of mine, they looked ok, about 1/4 had a bean inside. Don't think it is anyones' fault as we have no way of knowing they have bugs in them. I just make sure I put insecticide on all seeds inside the plastic baggie. Hollyhock seeds, especially, are VERY susceptible to worms eating the seeds.

Actually Cala had us all doing lots of experiments and she figured out the best way. The first batch of my brug seeds failed until Susie told me how to get rid of my fungus gnats and then she told me the best way to achieve germination at an incredibly high rate. She really knows her stuff!

Cala, you are a great one for these experiments, I know that you will keep good records and provide valuable data to the brug growers/hybridizers.
I look forward to your results.
But, how on earth are you going to manage these experiments on the heels of your move, on top of shipping all those brugs to people? and packing etc., I hope you aren't wearing yourself out.

Susie, i had the critter problem in my seeds too, i figured it was the same. the seeds of some when fresh picked were gushy inside if i remember right. had 5 of 28 of one of my seeds come up. it seems like Monika said some years are worse than others for seeds not germinating. btw, i thought your seeds looked like a pizza also.. nice pic.

Cala Thanks for all teh great info that you have shared with us.

Eric-- You in the BDU's gave me one big ol' flash back! I think I might wake up my DH and dig out our old BDU's out of the attic and low crawl around the yard. Oh forget it I'm to old and my neighbors probably have night vision goggles and will call the sherriff.

Arlene, some of the seeds last year were mushy inside, that's why I sent that batch to the University. They ran all kinds of tests on them. That mushiness was caused by a fungus. They told me to use Subdue Maxx and it worked.
The Maya seeds were perfectly formed, just empty. It was a first pod, and I've noticed that happening to several "first pods"(the first pod that sets on a new plant).
All those seeds in that pic yesterday have been bleached. They are drying on towels now. My whole house smells like bleach!

Susie, when do you use the subdue maxx? is it a spray that works on leaf spot also? guess i'll run google it...thanks again for the info! i have a few pods close to ready. guess i should run check your store too, see if the goodies are posted there yet, lol..

Arlene, Subdue Maxx is a systemic fungicide. It's used as a drench. It is one of the few fungicides that works to control pythium root rot. A fungicide with chlorothalonil as the active ingredient is a better choice for leaf spot. You should be able to find that at Home Depot or Lowes. If Daconil is still available(they are supposed to take that one off the unrestricted market soon) that's what it's active ingredient is. There is another brand called Fungi-shield that contains chlorothalonil. Green Light Brand has a good fungicide out too. The ones for leaf spot you just spray them on the leaves. None will cure the spots that are already there but will keep it from spreading.

Dr. Cala, I have brown spots the size of a nickle or bigger on my lantana leaves on 1 bush. Will these work for that also?

If it's a fungus causing it, it will work.

Hey lady, do not disappoint me, can't you tell from Tennessee what is causing it???? LOL

Just wanted to add something! On some of my pods I made a slit in them to check how the seeds were doing. A couple of weeks later...I had to harvest some of them early as fungus gnat larvae where inside...only lost about 3 seeds per pod which wasn't so bad! I really need to find something around here to get rid of those FG larvae!

Cala,
Thanks so much for the info...without you we would surely be lost....and mean it from down deep in my heart.

I had most of mine coming up and the few left in the pots still germinate sporadically. However lately I found some of the seedcoats was empty, but those could have been thrown off by the seedlings, but after reading this thread I am not so sure ...? I had falling disease in the first seedlings of suaveolens x unknown. They germinated in January to February and I imagine that both the air and the soil waqs too cool for them? I mailed out seeds and / or seedlings to Denmark, Germany, Switsherland, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweeden and Well, if it was my seeds causing the problem I will say thanks for the info as it will take care of the problem for a future :)

I've found the insects eating peeled and unpeeled planted seeds so I'm not too sure that simply peeling them is going to work. If they are getting into the soil and then getting into the seeds thats one thing, but if they are also capable of getting into a fruit and into the seed that is a completely different thing. It could be that the older fruit being dried and frequently torn open a bit is more prone to this insect. I can tell you that I have peeled a few from another nursery and found that they too had this same problem. What is odd is that I have noticed this phenomen with batches of seeds planted in the same dirt. Some types of seeds were affected while others were not. Now, I have noticed that some Brugmansia seedlings are more prone to insects than others while they are growing untreated. Could it be that some seeds as well are simply more prone to insects as well? I don't have all the answers and Cala makes for a very good argument. Clearly we are all going to have to make more observations. Whats hard is that sometimes the inside seed unaffected, but when one cuts the seed in half one can see a clear trail and perhaps just a single insect deep inside. Apparently they do bore into the seed itself.

do they start with eggs laid in blooms?

I found this little piece on fungus gnats for whatever its worth.

"Fungus gnats

These tiny, black insects seem innocuous enough as they buzz over your plants. While the adults rarely cause any problems to plants, if the young larvae are in large numbers, they can damage your seedlings. Fungus gnats search out moist soil in which to lay their eggs. When the eggs hatch, the larvae will feed on the roots of your plants. Healthy seedlings will often be able to withstand this feeding but any seedlings that have small root systems like onions and leeks and those that are showing symptoms of nutrient stress can be put back quite significantly.

The easiest way to prevent fungus gnats is to water your plants properly. Overwatering, which causes your potting mix to remain moist for extended periods of time, seems to attract fungus gnats. If your plants are already infected, allow the soil to dry out between watering. Alternatively, sprinkle a ¼" of sand on top of your soil to confuse the adults. Since the sand drains water quickly, it can sometimes trick the adults into thinking the soil is dry.

Potting mixes containing peat seem to be particularly affected by fungus gnats. If the problem is reoccurring for you, think about switching from a peat-based mix to one that only contains perlite and vermiculite. Lastly, if the adult fungus gnats are bothersome, trap them by making your own sticky trap. The adults are attracted to the color yellow. Make your own sticky trap by smearing Vaseline or Tanglefoot on a yellow surface and hang it up close to where the adults congregate."

I am horribly sorry to hear about the seed woes. I know some of you put so much thought and time into what to cross with what. I do realize I am somewhat of a newbie on the brug front, but one thing I am, is a whiz with growing from seed, even things that don't normally grow from seed. If any of you need help with growing some out, please let me know. I would be more than happy to help with your experiments, yet send back to you anything that grows. If nothing else, I am honest. I enjoy the challenge of growing from seed. Almost anyone can stick a plant in the ground, but sometimes it takes a bit more to grow from seed.

Oh right! Thanks for that Tonny! You can buy those yellow sticky cards here....why didn't I think of that!

Thaks to Bruno. Well, I knew, flies-paper, right. I didn`t think of that either. Well, we better go get some. That reminds me to flush the dw candida with the water hose. Spitermites haunts it again. The source was some large malvas (called Farmers Roses here), so I cut them down and threw out of the GH.