I hate to bring this up, but maybe we do need to talk about it. Are we adding to the unID'd problem when we take cuttings this fall of unknowns and send them out? I hate to see a plant wasted if its good and healthy, but it has to lead to more confusion and mis-named trades later on. Is there a way to at least avoid some of it? I guess we could tell people this is not a named brug, no ID possible, just enjoy?? I for one am getting rid of everything that I don't know for sure. But am I compounding the problem by passing them on? we're having enough confusion with the ones that come to us named and are wrong even then. and I know that I sent some out with wrong names (please it wasn't on purpose)
whatcha think?
are we adding to the problem?
I am not sending out mass sase's.
my criteria is more of overall brug genes. i have composted unknown pinks and whites and seedlings this summer that are too similar to named ones anyway. i have given away seedlings that should never have a name, mainly to local people who call them bell plants and angel trumpets.
lots and lots of brugs come from nurseries misnamed. there are enough named ones to share without sharing unknowns. but if someone local wants a pretty good blooming brug without a name i am passing it on, including ones to Dee and Floridian, azalea took one home with her too.
i am keeping some that don't have names and never will have a cause i like them. if people aren't gonna keep them cause they don't have a name that's fine too. i am not doing mass sase's, and anything else i send out this year will have a name. i am composting my frosties, insignis pinks, dr suess, etc, but i don't think there is much a demand for these anyway.
i guess people who are into brugs have to recognize that are millions of different hybrids and they all don't need names.
like Ludger's he likes and doesn't name for confusion's sake or something.... his unofficial ones.
tiG - I think it's a problem that will always be there and there's not a lot that can be done to avoid it. It's the same with daylilies, irises, hostas and any other collectable plants. Gardeners loose the tags, forget to label them, mix them up, and some just plain don't care. A peach brug is a peach brug as far as some are concerned. What compounds the probelm are the comapanies that sell plants mislabeled - and there are alot of them. The best I think everyone can do is to keep their own plants correctly labeled - the best they can. If you don't know an ID than it's best to love it as an "unkown". I think it's nearly impossible to get a correct ID from a picture but there are plenty of plants out there that get their ID because the grower saw a picture that looks like it.
I think it is an individual thing.....each of us should do as we think best in our own minds. Myself, if I had unknown brugs but they were very pretty, I would keep them and enjoy their beauty. I would share them with others, but would label them as unknown. A beautiful brug, in my opinion, should not be trashed just because it is an unknown. For hybridizing.....probably best to stick with known named varieties of known pedigrees.
I think the problem lies with what comes after. New brug lovers think that any yellow is CG, etc. You can tell people all day long that it's a clone, unknown, no name, but there's something about a name that draws people in. There's no way that by us not sharing our unknowns it will stop the problem, I just hate to add to the mix. But just as bad hate to compost a healthy plant. :) just thinking too much this morning and that always gets me in trouble.
That is why I tell people I have some hybrids I won't release.Not that I am trying to keep a secret collection..its just that they aren't really great eneough for the commercial trade..but I like their qualities for whatever reason.Everyone should use their own judgement.But if you trade or giveaway these plants by all means label them as unknown hybrids.Be merciless in culling plants.Compare all in a series and choose only the best with the largest number of good traits.Because a plant is pretty the first bloom cycle doesn't mean it is wind proof,heat proof,strong growing,well branching etc.My early hybrids were missing some of these qualities.They are still around but not my best.Improvement comes with time....so if in doubt...toss or just keep in private collection.
we already have a zillion pink hybrids (frosty look a likes) and others comming on fast..soon if a plant doesn't have a known name..it will always be labeled unknown.Strive for named cultivars with known ancestry,makes for great record keeping and better hybridizing..by knowing the ancestry you can save years worth of willy nilly crossing and producing nice..but not outstanding brugs. Does that sound right??LOL :-)
Would it be better to put a name on it such as "frosty pink hybrid TYPE"?
not really speaking of seedlings here, although I agree that most don't need names. I am not really releasing Eric's, I've carefully chosen a few close friends to help me grow these that I did name next year and make sure they are what they appear here. Strong, gorgeous, heavy bloomers that are not bug friendly. Have quite a few that won't get names or a second chance.
But speaking more of those that are from cuttings that have been shared from many places, way too similar to others, and almost impossible to ID anyway. I'm leaning towards only giving them to someone who comes to my house, and understands that it will always be an unknown, a pretty baby without a name.
I have many beautiful Brugs growing outside that I have not seen flower yet. Some are seedlings and some are unknown.It's a very hard thing for me to do since I've raised them all this time to the size they are now but I'm afraid they are going to be tossed.I don't have the room to grow a bunch of unknowns and since I'm really enjoying crossing them for that special one someday I am only keeping the best ones to use next year for hybridizing.I don't want to send these out as I'm also afraid of adding to the confusion next year of a bunch of ???? out there.
snow, and it would also save us some time, right?? LOL!!! never fear newbies, I do have some that will get cut and have names.
Well,I have had unidentified brugs for years,and I admit ,for the serious collector ,the un-named do cause a problem.
But I feel like we'd be brug snobs if we said,ok,you don't have a name ,so you will cease to exist.No one will own you...
I am sending my cutting out to people and saying they are a type or frostyish,they are not named,and I will stress that they please not give it a name to stop any "NEW" names coming out for the same plants.
With all the vitamins in brugs i bet they make great compost.
Just a little something else to add, I think we do the same thing when we send out seeds to people. I love to share like everyone else, but I'm thinking that this is one kind of seeds that we should grow on our own and if we can't grow them all, oh well. In reading about the seeds, I have read that there is little change in viability after even 5 years, so maybe we should either keep our extras or just throw them away too. We all understand having our close friends help us grow seeds, it is mailing them to people who just want them that bothers me most. Every seedling can get a new name and maybe that person doesn't know names that are already given to brugs. Now we have two brugs that look totally different and have the same name. Next we do a trade for it and find out it isn't what we thought we were getting. It can just get really confusing. Hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say here.
Some of my "old" ons I've had for over 3 yrs. are beauties, bloomed when no others did, but they are going to brug heaven, as I want just the new, named varieties. I feel like Hitler, here! Only the fittest shall survive.
Brugie, there's probably not a lot to be done about that either. even if we all do what you suggest, there are a lot of bruggers who don't come here who will surely be passing out seeds. if they do frequent daves, they at least should know what cross it is. and the companies that don't get the names on brugs right also sell seeds. i'd as soon share with people on the forum who at least will know what seeds they are growing cause people who want brug seeds will get them from somewhere. hopefully BHGA if ever going will help educate people who come here better.
Hibiscus, i hope you don't regret giving up beauties that bloom well.
maybe we should add be like monika and send seeds while retaining naming rights? think that might help?
not really tig, if they are still with us we'll know what it is and so will they. if not, who knows?
There are some seedings that are getting names attached to them and they really are not special enough to have a name,besides the fact that like the experts have said ,the first flush of blooms may be different and the bug tolerence ,heat,wind tolerence,amount of blooms ,they should be grown out in a variety of climates before naming .They should be tagged with your choice of name ,but next years bloom may not be all you thought it would be.
Don't get me wrong,there are some absolutly gorgeous seedlings out there......
And back to composting my un named,if I had to have a name on every plant in my garden,and anything un named would get composted,......well, I'd have nothing in the garden and nothing to ever trade.Just because they are un named doesent mean they can't be enjoyed......
CC, i agree. i understand if people just want the named ones, but i have some i'll keep without names just cause i like them. my cannas have names but i don't know must of them, ditto other plants.
And most of us started out with un named (or miss named ones)
What could be better to learn how to root and care for a un named instead of a Pink Beauty,at least if it dies its not a tragedy
And it will get them addicted and want more.
When I ship out my cuttings I will be enclosing a letter stating that they are un named ,and why they should not name them,also the care and rooting.
Arlene, I will cry a lot, when I throw them out, they are like part of my family. I was so proud and happy 3 yrs. ago to have any brug! I was fascinated with the bloom, never had seen anything that beautiful.
I'm afraid the "love of money" will still make some people put names on some and send them out to people who do not know the difference.
When giving out seedlings or seeds from a cross that one wants to select something trully spectacular out of one runs the risk of someone else coming up with something almost identical or slightly better. This leads to two spectacular hybrids that are so close that neither can be told apart except by growing them side by side in some cases. Perhaps the shades on the two hybrids are the same, but not on the same bloom cycle each time. The end result is a lot of mishap and confusion even if both new hybrids with the same parentage are different from all current hybrids on the market. The point is that they are too close to each other to warrant both going out on the market. In cases like this it would be nice if one could keep both seedlings to perhaps breed together and come up with something that was better than both and simply release one of the seedlings. Again, this becomes hard when one sends out ones seeds or seedlings as I know that if two people both recieved a red versicolor type hybrid from the same cross that they would both want everyone to have them and both people would want to name them. As they would both be in high demand even if identical as they were red one can see that the confusion would mount soon after. As a hybridizer though...I would want both to work with to see if I couldn't bring out or increase other more desireable traits.
As for giving out cuttings of unknowns...I have quite a few unknowns that I hybridize with from time to time and my rule of thumb is to only keep what performs to my expectations to use for hybridizing and then only to keep those seedlings that out perform either parent. I see no harm in giving out unknowns to others for their enjoyment. As with Isabella, she was my best Insignis/suaveolens type hybrid as per amount of blooms and frequency of bloom cycles and as I don't know her parentage I still hybridized with her and was quite impressed with what I recieved from her. I have learned much from everyone here about hybridizing and a bit from my own mistakes as well. I for one am only keeping first year bloomers, but I will keep all first year bloomers for at least 2 years as per Monica's instructions. The reason for this for me is that I have had some very spectacular heavy blooming first year bloomers with good repeat bloom cycles in the first year. In the second year flower cycles went down and in the third the cycles and amount of flowers per flush went down again. Cuttings from this same cross performed just as if it was the same outstanding first year bloomer. Unfortunately they too slowed down within a year or two. So, I see the need to keep our seedlings for a bit longer to make sure they continue to perform. Not only that, but I see the need to get one or two close friends to grow the best of ones selections to see if they perform for them as well. If I had two red aurea type hybrids come out of my seedling bed with the exact same parentage and both identical traits I would keep them both for hybridizing with and even cross them to each other to see if I could increase certain traits. I would only give both seedlings to hybridizers and only one would be released with a name. On another note, I have a six pointed orange versicolor type of unknown parentage that is always blooming. Unfortunately it is extremly slow in growth and only has 5-6 blooms each time it blooms and as it is only 4 years old and a 2nd year bloomer it will be composted. Still, one might think of hybridizing with even a hybrid such as this if one were to find just one trait in it that one wanted to work with that showed in this hybrid like no other. I know, enough rambling...just my thoughts. Perhaps we could still share seeds and hybrids from the same seedling patch per say if we agreed to send the best of the best to all sharing from that same batch so we could collectively choose a name for the best seedling from that same said cross. Of course the actual hybridizer should have the most weight and the final say so in any name from seeds he or she should happen to share. Still, I think that sharing and a collective consensus of the best hybrid seedlings might be the best way to insure that only the best were named. For instance, if I were to grow 5000 seeds from Cherrie Amour x Rothkirch and I selected 500 of the best seedlings of that cross to grow to maturity and then selected only the best 2 out of that cross to work with and or name. If I were to also send out 2000 seeds of that same cross to 4 other individuals and they also selected out the best 2 from that same cross then we could grow a considerably larger amount of seedlings from one cross and as we would all send our best two from the same cross to each other then that would give us a much larger selection from which to select the very best to actually name. It would also afford us the ability to have each of our hybrids from the same cross tested in different geographical areas and in different growing conditions. Not only that, but it would allow us to hybridize with those same said hybrids before the general populace were to lay eyes on them and to use them in their own breeding programs. Just a thought....Trully enough rambling from me.
oh my goodness, i was just wondering what you would say about this. Brugman, i am thinking that each successive frost back, meaning every winter when they die back, may cut back the number of blooms, i have been so disappointed in my original dr suess this year. i'm going to overwinter as many as i can this year, and probably ditch that dr suess.
so good to see you here! take care, and kisses to your family.
This message was edited Wednesday, Oct 2nd 3:41 PM
Good to see you here Arlene. From your responses I must confess I find great warmth and comfort. Not to mention it is clear that you are going to be a much better hybridizer than myself in just a short while. I can feel it in my bones. Take care and keep up the good work.
Brugman, i figured it out...you like that i said brugs make good compost, lolol.
Nice to see you post....and read your thoughts on this, Eric. I think you have some mighty good ideas!
Good luck, wherever you are:)
Owen