The Ruth Stout Method

Has anyone tried the Ruth Stout Method of gardening? There was a very interesting video and book about her (but she's deceased now). I think the title is preposterous, but on the other hand, am all for lessening drudgery whenever possible, especially if it entails organic approaches with no chemical fertilizers or pesticides. I'd be interested to know if anyone has tried her style of gardening of using a lot of mulch, etc. having been inspired by her in particular?

WOOPS! I just realized this is a redundant post. So sorry... I'll go seek out info in the previous threads.

This message was edited Monday, Sep 16th 3:21 AM

Hi Pala:
For years I planted my garden with the best intentions of keeping it weed free throughout the season. Unfortunately, I would get to busy and would let the weeds take over by July or August. Last year I too became inspired by Ruth Stout's book and decided to give it a try. I put about 10 inches of old hay and straw all over my garden last fall & winter.
This spring I marked the rows with a string. Punched small holes thru the hay mulch with a broom handle. Dropped in the seeds and filled the small hole with dried manure. No tilling-no hoesing. Very few weeds. I did have to add more mulch later in the summer to replace the stuff that had rotted.
We had a very dry summer here in Indiana. Most gardens failed.
I did water mine a few times and it stayed moist most of the season.
BEST GARDEN I EVER RAISED! Exceeded my expectations. I just hauled in some more old hay today.

welcome to DG danousley!

yes, there are many threads here about her method. i love it too!

happy reading ot you both.

tf

Hi Pala,

Can't be too many threads about Ruth. I inadvertanly woke the other thread from a three year snooze.

When I started gardening in the 1970's and later began market gardening, I began using Ruth's "method" (actually a method also used by other notable gardeners such as Helen and Scott Nearing and other earlier "pioneers."

The "permanent mulch" technique works well in many cases though every gardener needs to tailor it to their particular needs and circumstances and also to specific areas and crops within their garden. Unlike some current "method" hucksters, Ruth often admitted that her own method wasn't for everyone in all cases.

Up here in the northern mountains of NY, the soil in my raised beds takes a while to thaw after a long winter with temps down to 40 below. The mulch needs to be pulled back early in the spring to let the warming rays of the sun heat the soil, particularly for early spring crops. Beds with later crops can be left tucked in a bit longer but with heat-loving crops like peppers and eggplants, the beds are best left unmulched until later in the summer when the plants are growing vigorously with warm feet. This year, I made the mistake of mulching the eggplants with grass clippings too early and they grew extremely slowly. Next year, they will be mulched with black plastic strips which I'll be able to easily remove later when the plants are progressing and replace it with a real, soil-feeding mulch.

You're right about her book title; there is no "no-work" gardening method but in most situations, as you and a lot of us have found, her techniques do reduce the workload of tilling, weeding, watering and fertilizing. And unlike the Lasagna Lady and the Square Foot guy, Ruth offered a real, sustainable method that builds soil rather than making foolish attempts to ignore or bury it.

Wayne

here, here, Wayne!

Well said :-)

tf

I just ran into this thread, and agree wholeheartedly with the Stout methodology. In my years with the U.N. we would hand out translated excerpts of her treatise to peasant farmers (like me...lol) recovering their soils after natural disasters and the unnatural disasters of things like 'Green Revolution' rice, the ubiquitous VFN/ GMO pollution of the native germplasm and the contamination of precious soils with flourine via the use of Ureaformaldehyde as an N source. It didn't make us too popular with the chemistry representatives offering perpetual servitude and a lack of independence from their products, but Stout's obsevations were not only acts of intuitive genius but almost every thing she ever wrote on the topic has been scientifically validated. It's refreshing to see practioners here as well.

best,
don

it is nice to hear a DR. back her up. i hope she continues to have many followers!

it is nice to be independent from the chemical pushers LOL

tfq

As was alluded to above, I found that the "Stout" method was not effective in heavy soils in Northern climates. No matter how many no-till solutions seem to be tried, I have yet to see a system that works long-term in a full range of soils and using organic techniques.

When agri-business uses the term no-till what they really mean is lots of chemicals.

Tillage has worked for 6000 years of proven human history. Every time I try to fight it, it wins...eventually.

just an fyi for anyone, there is such thing as organic no till too ;-)

I know--I do it. I keep that mulch (a mix of grass clippings, leaves, pine needles, and hardwood mulch) as thick as I can keep it and I NEVER till. Keeps those Texas size weeds down and I just sheet compost--never do it in a pile anymore.

works good for these tomatoes, daylillies, LA irises, and a small live oak tree.

looks nice Debbie! maybe we will hear from ol' Shoe again. Last year when i was researching this no-till method, i found a thread from several years ago where he admitted to having used the method with success for twenty years! LOL i haven't even been gardening that long HEEHEE

Dmail Shoe--he always answers me. I asked him about how far apart heirloom tomatoes could be put and he took the time to write me a thesis....I was amazed at the time he put into my question--he's a real "gem" of a gentleman.

Thanks Tamara--a good word from you made my day (hey--I'm in public education and we don't get many positive words 2 days prior to spring break--lol).
Debbie

here's a green zebra tomato....with mega-mulch...actually you can hardly see it for the mulch. Well, you know what we say in Texas, if some is good...more MUST be better! lol

Hey TamaraFaye, weren't you saying how dry it was last year? There's the answer as to why it works so well for you.

+++
dmj1218,
How old is that bed?

+++
Folks in TX and others in the South are oftentimes looking for the cooling benefits and water retention of mulch. We are usually looking for heat and sometimes getting rid of excess moisture.

Mulch is great. I use tons of it. But, using mulch shouldn't be confused with Stout's method of just piling it on year after year and never exposing and turning the soil IN A COOL CLIMATE.

I really wish the Stout system would work here. It sure would be easier.

About 10 years old--although I've re-arranged it alot. The small live oak was planted form a 10" sapling about 4 years ago..here's a pic from another angle--pics don't really show the depth good and our climate literally decomposes mulch right before your eyes.

Jefe, it sounds like you'd really benefit from raised beds, wouldn't you? That would not only warm your soil but also help remove/reduce the "overly-wet" situation. Or is that what you do already?

As for Ruth Stout, she actually gardened her "no work"/"heavy mulch" system further north than me; she did it in Connecticut, and that was during the heyday of her book writing on the topic. (Or should I say "hay" day!) :>) As for cold soil/moisture, even she would recommend pulling the soil back for a few days to let the sun warm the soil, then plant your seeds, and then pull the mulch back to the seedlings when they were up in size. I wonder if you could try that and benefit from it? (I'm really just not up on your zone 4 climate/soil conditions so it is a new topic for me.)

dmj...pretty pics! Love it!

Horeshoe,

As always, I appreciate your input.

It has been a long time since I read the book and the years that we tried it. Yes, I think she did recommend pulling it back. I forgot about that.

Yes -- we already have raised beds in areas where we can use them. They help a lot! The rich black clay is so heavy here that even with a lot of earthworm and nightcrawler activity, it is like the soil stays sealed with plastic underneath the raised beds if the organic material is not tilled in.

We don't have raised beds in our two biggest gardens. We till in the fall. Then we let a few weeds grow in the spring and lightly till again to break up the crust that is formed by the weight of all the snow and kill those weeds. We then plant. In late June or early July when the soil has some heat in it, we mulch heavily.

Working in the organic material with tillage has created wonderful soil tilth.

dmj1218,
"...our climate literally decomposes mulch right before your eyes." Wow! We truly are talking about apples and oranges! I'd like to garden in the South someday.

Jefe--not in aug or sept--lol!

Jefe..." the soil stays sealed with plastic underneath"...the PERFECT description! I know exactly what you are talking about!

Here, in NC, unless we put something in the ground then our clay will, well...just that, remain clay. (How weird though...just north of town, another piece of land I use, the soil is not clay, is very friable, and a delight to work in.) But, back to my place, yep, due to quick decomposition we must always add something to the soild. And for the most part I do that by tilling it in. However, my "no work" garden is now going on 4 yrs ( an area I set aside, just for experimental work) and with only mulch added (straw, leaves, etc) the soil is much darker BUT is certainly not the perfect "TV Show" soil that we all dream of! However, I can see that at some point in time (maybe another few years?) the rotting of the mulches will really help that area.

My head is thinking...since the "no work/heavy mulch" system offers benefit, and tilling in compost/plant residue also does, why not do both? The tilling in process will help jump start the clay soil into becoming of good tilth, and the mulching will contribute to its sustenance, eh? (I know, I know...no new thought there, but just hope it will open up perspectives to many others.)

Happy Day to All!

Shoe.

I'm confused does the mulch dissapear even in the clay that you have folded in? Or do you mean that the top dressed Ruth Stout stuff dissapears. It takes years to break down here. Also I use a lot of pine needles and they never dissapear here. My worms travel through the clay via pine needle routes.

Here in the southland, the mulch disappears pretty fast, if you don't replace it annually. I use some hardwood leaves and mostly bales of wheatstraw. They are incorporated into the soil but dutiful earthworms, some look as big as small snakes. Parts of the garden that haven't received the mulch are heavy clay and very few worms and lots of weeds. One of these years I hope to get the whole thing mulched, maybe THIS year. :-)

annually?--in Houston 3-4 months it's decomposed completely to soil except for the largest pieces.

that would be a bummer. i'm glad i'm in montucky. Have you ever used pine needles. You probably don't have access to them. Anyway with worms that big they have no trouble with moving through the clay. How deep does the composted material get carried? In our Glacial Lake Missoula clay (white sterile, alkaline clay) the worms won't penetrate it at all unless we give them a throughfare. IE Pine needles and then they color the soil about an inch or two a year.

I use cardboard covered with chip mulch to "colonize" areas around the house that I want to turn from sod to garden plots, but for the big patches out in the yard, I use the tiller. It is not possible for me to get enough mulch to cover that much ground. I would need dump trucks of the stuff. So IME, heavy mulch works for some things and not others. One thing I did try last year in the yard plots was living mulch (of purslane). That worked well for most of the summer. Then it got so hot here it just was fried off. I am planning a lot of perennial beds this year, so I am going to have to use a lot more living mulch, plant things close to crowd out weeds, and do a lot of hoeing.

I used to live up in Moorhead and mulch would not be a good idea there. It is too cold and there are too many slugs, the way I remember it. I grew warm-season things in containers when I lived there. Otherwise, it's a great place for cole crops!

I don't till, but I do use a pitchfork to loosen the soil a bit (just by rocking it back and forth a bit as far down as it will go) before adding amendments. So far, so good.

It is so interesting to see how we all need to adapt to our soil and climate. It is too cold and there are too many slugs for permanent mulch, no-till systems here.

It is strange, so many extension agents and soil scientists swear that tillage kills earthworms. It may in some areas. I just don’t believe the theory holds up for our area (nor maybe any area with good moisture and clay soils). In three different gardens, experience has taught me that this is an "edu-myth" (like an urban myth, but one that seems to be perpetuated by the academic system).

I think conservative tillage is important here due to three key aspects:
#1 Placing the organic material in a more easily reached location.
In all three gardens, the earthworms seem to do the most work when we incorporate the organic material. Over tillage will kill them. That is true. Tilling twice a year in two of the gardens seems to allow them to use the organic material.

#2 In northern climates the composting (decaying) needs to be kick started.
My vermicomposting setup shows the same thing. I realize that my red worms in the bin and the night crawlers and other earthworms in the garden are very different creatures. However, according to my research and others comments on this forum, worms don’t eat the organic material. They are actually preying on the microorganisms that are part of the decaying process. (Check this page: http://www.wormswrangler.com/article10.html)

#3 We need to incorporate oxygen
A thick layer of mulch that is never tilled seems to suffocate our soils. They need aeration. The worms alone can’t seem to get the job done. They need some tillage help.

Interesting premise, Jefe...

My two cents....In warm and especially sandy soils organic material breaks down very quickly. Further north and with clay/loam soils things take longer to break down and too much left on top can leave a very wet, cold, clammy, and slimy mess in spring

Fortunatly we all garden in our own gardens and can do it what ever way we prefer and what results they achieve. After all my back breaking labor and soil ammending, and irrigation systems I will never admit that it was better any other way. So there Thank goodness for private property ownership here in America. Hee Hee.

Indy,
Your comment is worth a whole lot more than $.02. It is very valuable for the person that is starting a garden in the South or the North (or for that matter, somewherre in between).

I think we sometimes fail to realize what a great resource this forum provides for new gardeners. Although many of the folks here offer comments (and even a bit of banter) regularly, many of the new gardeners “lurk” like I did for a long time. They just read and observe. Knowing which methods work, where they work, and why they work helps them get a great jumpstart toward success.

Does anyone else do things that they really know better than to do but do them anyway. I piled about 24 inches of maple leaves on my garden last fall thinking I would try the Ruth Stout method this spring. Now this spring I have a frozen slimey mess. Some green matter would have helped or some blood meal, but I didn't think of that last fall. The ground underneath is ofcourse still frozen. I am raking it back little by little and will add bloodmeal and green matter as it comes but any other suggestions?

well, i dont' see why it needs bloodmeal. frozen isn't good, but though slimey seems yucky, i think that once it gets a little air in there [24 inches!] you will find the leaf mold to be a completely acceptable all purpose fertilizer. just ask farmerdill or horseshoe...

maybe you can bag what is on top to save for the fall??? you just don't need too much of anything.

but isn't that what we do, a little is good, so a lot must be better LOL. yep, i do it.

another idea, try to get a variety of leaves, they are all different. and in late winter, cover it with black plastic to speed up decomposing and to warm the soil. as a matter of fact, there are some herbs you could sprinkle in to speed up decomposing, i believe chamomile is one...

hope this is helpful,
tf

I've been known to mulch that heavy but the heat tends to decompose the leaves really quickly down here--next winter I'm aiming for 36 inches....so I'll have 2 inches of mulch on June 1st.....LOL....Tamara, you will know what I mean..I also try to mix some grass clippings in there for a bit of the green.
Debbie

oh, yes, wometimes i wonder where all my mulch went? surely some blows away...

synergy,

Be assured that I know exactly what you mean.

Here's what I have learned the hard way: Don't expect some of the methods that work for southern, eastern, or western gardeners to work here in the upper Midwest.

Yes, some things work. Others are a total and absolute failure as you learned this year (and I learned a few years ago) with the Stout method. It wouldn’t matter how many other ingredients you pile on to attempt to make it work. It will still insulate the soil, keep it frozen, make it slimy, and be a minus instead of a plus up here in the North Country.

I don’t want to speak for them, but I will take the time to compliment them - when horseshoe and famerdill chime in on a method, I note that they just about always are willing to add a “location disclaimer”. In other words, in their wisdom, they have come to realize that the one size fits all concept usually doesn’t work out too well somewhere. I hope I am slowly learning that wisdom too.

Jefe, you can speak for me (or about me!) and I'm comfortable with it! Your knowledge is more than you give yourself credit for. And you also have the great ability to be diplomatic, not just in your human interaction but also in your garden. (And yes, exercising diplomacy in your garden is important, and Folks, this is quite possibly what Jefe is trying to point out to us.) (Correct me if I'm wrong, please.)

"Diplomacy" in the garden means (my words/thoughts) using a proper mix, or negotiation. of things that will contribute to the betterment of the garden. This is done through the realization of taking all factors into consideration. Those factors could range from the foundation (soil, etc) to temperature ranges, length of growing season, materials used, crops being grown, labor involved (including handwork as well as machinery), etc. (Those are just a few examples, by the way!)

Although some (or all) of those above-mentioned factors may be naturally considered and recognized/learned by some of us I think it makes it easy to lump them all together under "garden diplomacy". This way it'll jog our memories and help us to remember to consider offering "politeness" to our gardens, eh!? In other words, while standing in your garden, or planning it, ask yourself, "Am I being diplomatic with this new life?" If you do so, perhaps those considerations will automatically come to mind in your answer to yourself. :>)

And now, in an effort to end my long-windedness, 'tis true, "constant mulch" (a.k.a. Stout method/no-work/etc) isn't for every garden in every area of the world. Various usages/forms of it could be utilized in some areas but not in others.

There could possibly be a way to augment the heavy mulch system to make it more effective but that would depend on a person's choice regarding the extra labor and supplies. For example, in the northen regions, using straw or leaves in a bed...instead of leaving it open to the elements, would erecting a small hoopframe over the bed help? It would keep the temperatures more regulated; would keep snow/ice from permeating the straw/leaves; it would also help to keep the soil temp warmer, and also contribute to the breakdown of the mulch thereby increasing microbial/bacterial soil life, perhaps? We'd have to have one of you to do an experiment for us, eh? ;>)

Isn't this a wonderful thread, with lots of wonderful Folks participating? I love it! Ya'll are great! Many thanks for your sharing.
Shoe.










This message was edited Apr 8, 2006 1:37 PM

I think in my case what I should have done was put the leaves in their own "heap" for the winter and then after the soil had thawed and warmed add the partially composted leaves to the garden. What do you think?

synergy~
i htink that would have involved a lot of labor, you would have to turn your heap regularly... but i bet someone who knows can give you a better answer

shoe~
couldn't agree with you more!

tf

synergy: regarding leaves: it takes 2 to 3 years to make a usable product (referred to as "leaf mold") from whole leaves. Leaf mold is a low nutrient amendment that can serve as a soil conditioner and also acidify (especially oak leaf mold). To accelerate the process, chop up the leaves first using a mower, a weed eater, or a leaf vacuum/mulcher. Then the leaves should be moistened and left to decompose, either in plastic bags or in a pile. Unlike compost, you don't turn them. You're letting them mold, you're not concerned about aerobic vs. anaerobic conditions as you would be with a compost pile. In 1 -2 years you will have some excellent leaf mold.

I do make leaf mold, but I have so many leaves I also take a shortcut by putting chopped up oak leaves directly around my acid-loving blueberries.

mmm, thanks for the great tip! now if visitors could just understand why i have all those piles of bags everywhere around the garden, LOL

i was just reading an old issue of Organic Gardening, from 1999 when Maria Rodale was in charge, and Tim McGraw had just left. They had a page about 10 things to do with leaves. Well, two of them were silly, just space fillers, but the others were interesting. If i get a chance this wekk, i will retype it and post it here!

tf

When I began Stout method 35 years ago in SE MN garden, I didn't really think about worms or clay. I needed the produce to feed a family. Now Elliot Colman says nature dos a better job with soil; leave it alone. He's dead right, I tilled for years and mulched what I could--afraid to NOT till. Someone said 10 worms per cubic foot of soil--I get 10 per shovelful. AT least 15 years no till. I never hit the yellow clay with a shovel of soil anymore. The soil is mostly beautiful if I dig into it. My tilling mostly ended when I put in asparagus along on side over which I needed to turn the tiller. I dig some grass along the sides now--that's all--by hand. A friend uses the tiller to dig lawn for his corn. I happily plant in that area next season--mulched then.

I tried raised "earth" beds--no sides--couldn't tell any differences. Ground warming seemed the same. For years I couldn't get things planted until Memorial Day--but now even earlier doesn't seem to matter. Tomatoes and peppers are just earlier to yield. Mulch won't stop frost so frost is the only problem--if anything. Yesterday I raked mulch from a 2ft X ?ft area to plant broccoli--only because the dirt looked so good. This year's tomatoes go in where I spread some "sort of compost" last fall. I see a little quack grass sprouting. I'll sort of spade that area and leave it bare until planting (using transplants).

As an aside: Anyone using Eliot Colman's four seasons harvest ideas?