Well, I’m convinced that the pytocertificate noise was just that; noise. Based on my international test, seeds are passing through ports of entry with no problems, and without being confiscated.
To reiterate, for those who haven’t been following along, I contacted 12 people in different countries, and asked them to send me a packet of unimportant seeds, being sure to mark “garden seeds” clearly on the outside, and to tell me the date they mailed it.
Eight correspondents---all of them DG members---said they were sending seed. A 9th said she would be glad to, but it might be some time before she could get to the post office.
Of the eight who gave me shipping dates, I’ve received seven packages so far, none of which took longer than a week or so to get here, and none of which appear to have been inspected, let alone stopped.
Those I’ve received came from:
Christine---Chile---9 days
John Yeoman---UK---7 days
Wintermoor---Germany---4 days
Evert---Finland---8 days
Mark—Ireland---6 days
Babalu---Brazil---9 days
Roger---Sweden---9 days.
Particularly pertinent: Both Evert and Roger attached customs declarations to the envelopes. This should have acted as a flag to alert inspectors. Yet the envelopes where not opened.
I was concerned especially about the shipments from South America, because a lot of that mail gets checked for reasons other than seeds. But both of them sailed right through.
So my conclusion is that it is perfectly safe for individual gardeners to ship seed into the U.S., and that APHIS is not, despite their proclamations to the contrary, requiring a phytocertificate on all seed shipments.
Thanks to everybody who helped with this test. Sometime in the next couple of weeks I’ll be sending each of you a more tangible thank-you.
phytocertificate test results
Brook, this is so good to hear..thought it was all just scare tactics! BUT, we really do not want hoof & mouth disease into our country either, so whatever they have to do, but do not think they have enough inspectors to do it.
Like everything else.....
>BUT, we really do not want hoof & mouth disease into our country either, <
Of course not. But the announced reason for enforcing the phytosanitary certificate rule wasn't because of disease. It had to do with "seed cleanliness" and the prevention of weeds.
Just another example of the worlds greatest lie: I'm from the government, I'm here to help you.
Hibiscus, Brook is right. It was/ is a part of the extermination programm for weeds and foreign plants from the landscapes. Also butterflies, reptiles and birds was/ is in this programm. Seeds only rarely or never carry disease. I know, that there was a big virus scare campaign of several fora around and after January 2002, but seeds don`t carry it as well. I must admit, that I isolate everything new coming into my garden just in case, but I never had any problematic plants or seeds in. I got a sample of wild aurea seeds collected in Colombia coming in from another European Country and that don`t scare me either. What scares me are the readyness to listen to scare campaigns and to take them for real, but history reveal that it wasn`t the first time, that happened and sure not the last time.
That's a wonderful news, Brook.
Also I do believe that gardeners are , in the greatest majority , very responsible towards nature and the maintenance of clean , healthy and variety of the flora in our world garden.
I will never send seeds that are not clean or that I may know to have any viral or fungal infectation.
Cristina
Glad to hear that your international seed test worked so well. Did you ask anyone in Australia to send you seeds? Just curious, since I have a pending seed trade with another gardener "down under".
"...attached customs declarations to the envelopes. This should have acted as a flag to alert inspectors". The person I am trading with in Australia indicated that they are required to attach a customs declaration. I assume that we do not have to do this in the U.S.?
Brook, the seeds that you sent to your test group ONLY had the mailing & return addresses? Nothing else was needed? I just want to be sure.
Thanks for testing the international "waters". So many more interesting seeds abroad. So glad that your phytocertificate test proved that it was a big "smoke screen".
Brook,
I sure hope it stays that way. It seems to be easy to get paranoid about "Big Brother" these days, with so many rules and regs..
Thanks for your efforts, Brook. Maybe more of us should do some testing. I am surprised that I can receive anything here in California. This seems to be a country unto itself.
A few years back when I had a nursery, some of the plants I received from out of state were quarintined (sp?). I wasn't allowed to receive my plants until they were inspected, but that seemed to be an isolated incident. It only happened one time.
Au, contraire, Shirley. If you mark your envelope as containing seeds, or if it's anything larger than a regular letter envelope, the PO will have you fill out a customs declaration.
When you do, just mark the contents as "garden seeds," with no value, and check off the box that says "gift."
Just to clarify, I was testing seed import, not export---which I have never had trouble with. The international folks sent seed to me for this test.
And no, I didn't test Australia for two reasons. First, I have no contacts down there. And second, it is all but impossible for anyone to legally ship plant parts (including seeds) into Australia.
Evelyn: California is one of about a half dozen states that requires inspection of plants and plant parts. Probably the toughest state is Arizona, with California running a close second.
Far as I know, those are the only two states that have agricultural inspection stations at their borders, for instance.
Florida has them but it's mostly for big shipments of plants/fruit.
About a dozen states have phytosanitary certificate requirements, but few have inspection stations permanently manned.
Most of the time what they're concerned with is fresh produce and plants, rather than seeds. The seeds they usually are worried about are those which are defined by that state as noxious or invasive.
And, yes, their emphasis is on commercial shipments rather than individuals. Last time I entered Arizona, for instance, they cared less about our cooler full of fruits and veggies, for instance.
Betcha, though, if we'd been transporting houseplants they would have inspected, and maybe confiscated.
Brooke
I'm now back from my holiday - do you still want me to see if I can send seeds from Switzerland or have you had a big enough response?
Also - now that it seems there is no problem - do you want some of my legumes as a swap for the ones you sent me?
Send me an email if you do.
How was your holiday?
Don't worry about trading right now. I'm covered up with seeds I haven't planted out yet. Just enjoy the ones I sent you.
Brook, thank you so much for conducting this experiment, and letting us all know the results. I also have had some experience sending/receiving seeds international, but it was never done with the envelope announcing "seeds". According to our local assistant postmaster, it was only necessary to ID and declare by customs declaration if they were non-seed plant material. That includes bulbs, seedpods (fleshy ones) and anything that is on the US noxious/invasive weed lists. Although I don't know why the US gov't would care if we are EXPORTING noxious weeds; wouldn't they be glad the seeds are leaving the country?
I would love to know of anyone's experience in international plant (not just seeds) trading. I know the commercial nurseries have many legalities they must go through; how about private traders?
>According to our local assistant postmaster, it was only necessary to ID and declare by customs declaration if they were non-seed plant material. <
Y'all ever looked at the book of postal regs? It's about 4 inches thick; and _nobody_ understands it---including (or, maybe I should say, especially) postal workers.
Ask six different postmasters the same question---any question not having to do with regular mail---and you'll get six different interpretations of the rules. Matter of fact, if you ask the postmaster one day, and the assistent postmaster the next, you'll likely get two different answers.
At my PO they always make me fill out the customs declaration. Got to the point where I just keep a bunch of them at home with my stamps, just because it's easier to take care of it here than there.
Brook, the time I tried to do that (fill out the Customs Declaration at home) the postal assistant made me fill out a new one and sign it while he watched!
I agree: too crazy to try to figure out all the rules and regs. I just go along with whatever the worker tells me on that day (mostly). Our PO can't even agree about the correct postage for the oversize (thick) envelopes: one day it is 48 cents, the next time it is 49 cents. Too odd.
Brook,
Thanks for doing the test. As you did not include Canada in it, I sent a package of seeds to tig. She should have them anytime. Will post here when she lets me know.
marilyn, did you note when you mailed them?
Marilyn,
I didn't include Canada because I don't know of any problems shipping seeds in either direction. Plant, yes---especially going into Canada. But everyone I know who'd traded seeds across our common border has done just fine.
Has anybody had problems that you know of?
I was part of a Round Robin that included people from Australia.We were trading tomatoes,which are allowed into Australia,but apparently someone included a couple packs of legumes(most of which are prohibited..go figure) and _everyone _ on the RR list that was included in the package got a nasty note from Australian Customs.In essence,it stated that because of Australia's unique flora and fauna,sending seeds into the country is a no-no.(this was the nice version)
The person I am trading with in Australia, sent me the following:
1. "Send seeds in a padded bag, or protected by bubble wrap, or in a small ridig box; to avoid damage by crushing during postage. Without this many seeds are seriously damaged in the post."
2. "Attach a customs declaration slip, stating that the contents are 'Seeds, Gift, No Commercial Value'. Customs slips are normally available at your post office, but if you have problems getting one let me know and I can email you one. Do not send seeds without a properly filled out customs declaration, as our customs will seize and destroy any seeds without one."
3. "Label each seed packet with their botanical name. If you need help with the botanical names then let me know and I can help, as many people only know the plants by their common names. Do not send seeds without each packet being labelled with the botanical name, as our customs will seize and destroy any seeds not correctly labelled."
BTW, he contacted me and requested the trade. He asked for flower seeds, not tomatoes. I will post again and give everyone an update as to whether my seeds made it through Australian Customs and if his seeds were allow into our country.
Forgot to tell y'all that the last package arrived (thank you, Dimitri). Took 9 days.
What I would like to see tested are imports from the pacific rim. Anybody got any contacts in China, Japan, Thailand, places like that?
Also India would be nice.
tig,
I mailed them a couple of days after I emailed you.
Brook,
I haven't tested it for the past couple of years, but no seeds are allowed into US from Russia. Russian mail authority automatically tosses them. Also Russia will not allow mail from overseas to be delivered without its being opened and inspected. Almost everything is rejected (trashed). Don't know if we have any Russian DG'ers yet, but I am trying to have some missionary friends there join us.
They could sure use some seeds, but they must be hand-carried/delivered, which does not frequently happen.
Same with Czech Republic: almost no seeds are allowed in/out of the country by their governmental postal office. Those are a few of the international countries I have had personal (limited) experience with.
Thanks, Lupine,
I knew about Russia, but didn't know about the Czech Republic.
Lot's of countries have some rules about the importation of seeds and plant parts. Usually the person you are trading with, in that country, knows what can or cannot be shipped in.
The point about the U.S. phytocertificate thing is, however, that based on the hoopla, _no_ seeds were going to be allowed without one. Which would have written finis to the international trading of heirloom seeds into this country.
I'm just glad is was all blue smoke and mirrors, and that we can pretty much continue as we had been doing.
I have to ask my Finnish friend who is living in Russia, do they really do that.
I hadn't heard that abotu Czech republic :O I wonder do other European countries do that too.
Ukraina or Poland neither...
Being on this side of the Pond, I wouldn't know. My concern has always been getting seed to the U.S.
We have both a European and International Trading forum here at DG, however, and I'd bet the folks on those forums have a pretty good fix on where you can, and cannot, send seed.
Actually the European forum isn't a trading forum ;) I'm always concerned will the seeds arrive to the US especially when sending to areads where postal code starts with 0, 1 or 2.
Obviously I can't answer that. I would be nice if a couple of people who live in those area codes would repeat the test with off-shore correspondents of their own.
My feeling, however, is that if there are problems they will arise between the ports of entry and the addressee. In other words, APHIS won't be the blockage.
Presumably, the seeds sent me entered at New York. Most Eurpean mail comes in either there, Boston, or Baltimore, and is then inserted into the regular system.
The info about Czech Republic is from 2000; family friends lived there, and when we in US tried to mail things to them, the packages were always opened by authorities, and all plant/food material was destroyed. Many other things were removed also. I don't know what their official rules for plant/seed trading are, but in reality, nothing is (was) allowed through the mail to them.
Same with Russia. When we tried to mail things to Russia, from 1993-2001, most of the time the letters/parcels simply were not delivered. The few that were had been opened, and most of the contents removed. Again, I don't know their official laws, just the what happened.
Letters/packages to and from a couple of the former Yugoslavia nations (I would have to check my atlases and old address books to be sure which ones) have not been getting through either. Friends who live in a couple of the different ones haven't received mail from us since 1997. My parents hosted high school exchange students from there, and we just were cut off that year.
I don't have any dealing with anyone in Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, or Romania, but I could probably find someone (missionaries, mostly) and try if y'all want. Having a family member who is a missionary gives me lots of ways to make friends in some countries that are mostly blocked.
I have a trading partner in Hungary, and have never had a problem in either direction.
It wouldn't surprise me to find that Poland is a problem area. The USDA has had a strong presence there for many years, and Poland is really buying in to the Green Revolution. So it's likely they have an approved list, which excludes any non-patented, or, at least, non-listed seeds.
I have no feel for the other two at all.
Brook, is he from Kístarcsa? =)
I just sent a letter to Belledonna last week, it was a small bubble wrap envelope. There was about 7 or 10 packs of seeds or something, packed to small zip lock bags. I put a customs label on the other side of the envelope and wrote "Unsolicited gift" and "No value - 0 €" on it or something... it arrived without any problems.
>Brook, is he from Kístarcsa? =)
?
Hmmmm, don't know what happened to the rest of the message, Evert.
What I had said was: "Just a lucky stab in the dark, right Evert? Yeah, that's the same guy."
Strange how some of the post appeared and some didn't.
:)
Brook
A big THANK YOU for doing this test. I am currently about to trade seeds with various African countries (yes, exotic stuff like crowders _does_ grow in the UK, if you make voodoo passes over it).
I have a good seed-growing contact in Australia, if you'd like to replicate your test with Australia.
Looks like you've got no excuse now, to forbid us UK yokels - joining in your next legume round robin!
JOHN
I've never had any problems trading with my friend in South Africa and Australia.