Late last year the USDA announced that it would start enforcing the requirement that all imported seed---including individual packets from gardeners---would require a phytosanitary certificate.
If you recall, this raised quite a storm from seed traders and collectors, not to mention commercial seed houses who deal internationally. Initially they said they’d start enforcing in January. This was later changed to July 22.
USDA and APHIS web sites have conflicting information about what will or won’t require a certificate. And seed traders have been up in the air. Are they inspecting? Are they requiring written and/or verbal phytosanitary certificates? Are individual gardeners being affected?
I decided to run a test. Early last week I emailed correspondents in 11 different countries. I told them what I was doing, and asked them to send me a packet of unimportant seeds, and clearly mark on the envelopes what was inside.
I’ve heard back from 8 of them so far, six of whom provided a date for when they mailed the seeds. So far, less than a week from the first mailing, and including the holiday weekend, I’ve received 4 of the 6 that already were mailed. These came from: Germany, England; Ireland; and Brazil.
If any of these envelopes were inspected it’s being done a strange way. None of them have been opened and resealed.
In other words, I’m beginning to think this was all a tempest in a teapot, and that if any inspection is taking place it’s being done only on commercial shipments with customs declarations.
I’ll keep you up to date on what happens with the rest of the shipments. But for now, my conclusion is, if you want trade with overseas gardeners, don’t hesitate. Your seeds should come right through.
Tempest In A Teapot
Brook, sorry I was too lazy/didn't have have time to mail the envelope yet, will do it soon.. :}
No problem, Evert. Just be sure to email me the day you do, so I can keep track of how long it takes, and that it does, indeed, get delivered.
Hey, I knew that Agathie Christie paperback would fool 'em!
John
Yeah, John. I had trouble reading the subtitle, at first, but can now make it out:
"The Gastropod Murders"
And all this time I though Ag. Chris. was just another of your noms de plume. Go figure!
I received poppy seeds from Canada and the sender even had a label on the envelope in big red letters "Seeds" and it came right through in record time.
Canada is a separate case, Debby. There are no restrictions on the transport of seeds in either direction. However, plants are something else. Canada bans the import of most plants, particularly from individuals.
Brook: Canada was on the ban list. They postponed it for Canada till June of 2002, last I heard.
Canada was not an exception. Richter's was really upset about the possible imposition of a phyto, because it would pretty much put them out of business. They were even trying to organize protest against it. I think the USDA realized it is not going to get the money to put on all the agents needed to inspect all this stuff and that they had no idea of the scope of imports into the US.
>Canada was not an exception.<
Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. However, I've read quite a few transcripts of Canadian meetings and conferences on this, and they all dealt with plants.
>Richter's was really upset about the possible imposition of a phyto, because it would pretty much put them out of business.<
Gimme a break! I know that Conrad was very concerned, and made a lot of noise about this. But most of Richter's business is within Canada. The loss of U.S. business (if it actually happens) might effect their bottom line. But it surely won't come close to putting them out of business.
Besides which, most of us are concerned with how it effects us as individual seed traders, moving one or two packets of seed at a time. That's a totally different issue than the commercial considerations of seed and plant houses like Richter's.
This message was edited Wednesday, Sep 4th 8:22 AM
Brook,ya are doing a great job for us gardeners,i feel.
seeds to be banned or not the question has been discussed for quite a long time.so far the seed mailing from China to other countries(such as Finland,UK,USA,Chile,Brasil...) is smooth all the time.i even sucessfully sent coins and small paper changes in the envelopes.let's wait and see what will be going on in the future.i will keep tracing...
Well, if your only concern is how it affects you as individuals trading a couple of seed packets, that's different. There are and will always be people who get away with importing contraband of various sorts into the US. A wider issue that should be of interest to everyone involved in gardening is the attempt to control which seeds we have access to either as individuals or as businesses that supply individuals.
I assumed that Richter's did a significant amount of business with the US. They have a paper catalogue, for instance, printed up just for US customers.
This page has a lot of info about the whole issue, probably more than most people would care to know, but it's there:
http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/USDAComment.htm
>There are and will always be people who get away with importing contraband of various sorts into the US. <
I take exception to this comment, on two levels. First, nobody has been talking about contraband---with is defined as illegal material. There are, for instance, certain plants that are totally banned from import into the U.S. If somebody snuck them in, that would be importing contraband.
Second, there is a lot of confusion about the pytosanitary certificate regulation in that people keep calling it "new." It is not new at all, and has long been part of the law. What USDA announced last year was that they would start _enforcing_ the law on all seed shipments. Enforcement, by definition, means that all seed shipments would be inspected, and that either a verbal or written phytocertificate would be required.
Carrying your comment out to the rediculous, we could say that anybody who has ever brought in seed from overseas has been guilty of "importing contraband." That would include individuals trading one or two packets, or a small business bringing in several hundred dollars worth from an African seed producer.
>A wider issue that should be of interest to everyone involved in gardening is the attempt to control which seeds we have access to either as individuals or as businesses that supply individuals<
I couldn't agree more that this wider issue is fundamental to the problem. USDA, obviously, has been trying to go the European route for sometime, and thus limit what we can or cannot grow.
The only difference between you and me is that you have a vested interest in the broader issue, and have been trying to force this discussion in that direction. My concern has been with the individual seed traders who comprise this list, and I've been trying to keep the subject on-topic for them.
With all this talk about shipments from Canada and Ritchers, I thought I'd just add that the seeds are at least being inspected on a random basis. The seeds I got this spring from Ritchers had the seed packages cut in pieces by the postal inspectors. (you would think they could have just snipped a small opening in the top of something) It was a real mess! So far, however, that is the only time I've ever had a problem with stuff coming from Canada or elsewhere.
Far from forcing the conversation in any direction, I simply responded to earlier posts that mentioned the effect the enforcement of this rule would have on mom-and-pop seed companies. I also assumed that since most people here at some point actually buy seeds from some company or other instead of trading for them that they would be interested in how this law would affect such seed companies.
As for contraband, yes, that is what this is about. Seeds without a phyto are contraband, according to the USDA. What is being discussed here are the ramifications of importing that contraband. Does the contraband get through? Is it simply seized? Is a fine involved? (The USDA would like to impose huge fines as "deterrence," good grief.)
I personally have no problem with people bringing in seeds without a phyto. In fact, more power to 'em. Seed carriers like birdschlitz, the wind, the ocean, and so forth don't have phytos or respect borders, and yet the flora of the world has managed all these millions of years anyhow. Karen7's seed packets getting slit open is a good example of how much the USDA actually does NOT care about "protecting" us from foreign seeds. If they really cared about phytos and the supposedly deadly effects of those bad, skanky, furrin seeds, the only right thing to do would be to seize the seeds and send her a letter informing her of that fact. Slitting the packets open is just plain old bullying.
This message was edited Friday, Sep 6th 9:01 PM
Uh, folks, before you start hyper-ventilating, may I point out that any small seed can be tucked beneath a postage stamp - and a few hundred small seeds can be stuck behind a flotilla of small-unit postage stamps.
And then soaked off.
(Or just plant the whole darned postage stamp.)
Beans and peas can be imbedded in durable objets d'art, or even balls of knitting wool.
No Federal Marshal is going to visit you, if you do it. And if one flew here, I'd welcome that hapless shmuck - and introduce him to my compost heap. With tv crews gleefully in attendance.
(Um, there's an idea. Anybody like to force a test case? Under the glare of media publicity?)
The US phytosanitation laws are not acceptable. Because they have no acceptable basis in science or justice.
To repeat myself: "A law that is not explained, is a law that is not justified".
Yes, Veronica, sometimes it _is_ okay to break the 'law'. When the law is an ass, it is a moral imperative to ignore it. How else did the US constitution get written?
John
(Writing, I must concede, from the safety of England...)
>When the law is an ass, it is a moral imperative to ignore it. How else did the US constitution get written? <
Aye, Johnny me boyo. You're a great gardener. But as a historian there's maybe something lacking.
The U.S. Constitution was written precisely so that the U.S. would _be_ a nation of laws. No Star Courts or the like, as in some countries we could mention. And the law (i.e., the Constitution) is fully explained in the preamble.
The wholesale ignoring of bad laws took place here previous to the Declaration of Independence, when all the onerous laws imposed by Parliament were being flaunted. Those who insisted on obeying the laws were, shall we say, mistreated.
Then came the Declaration of Independence, which was a moral justification--using, I might add, British rationales--for breaking the law by force and violence. You will note, however, that we were very careful to not blame Parliament---the source of the bad laws---but instead laid it all on a foreign, likely insane, king who had little to do with making those laws. But nobody liked him anyway. :-)
I also differ with your basic premise. An explained law isn't necessarily justified. Bad law is bad law, whether explained or not.
Let me add that an unenforcible law---which the pytocertificate thing seems to be---is a bad law by definition.
This message was edited Tuesday, Sep 10th 9:56 AM
Ay, Brook, I respect you, I love you - yet still will I confute you.
(Which is not, on reflection, a bad explanation of what happens in a civilised law court.)
I don't know US history. What I do know is, morality.
You're right, a law - even if explained - is not necessarily good law. Hitler's Gestapo knocks on your door, and asks you to reveal where your Jewish friends are hiding? That's the law. Do you comply?
Herod's soldiers knock on your door, and ask for your first born male children - to kill them. That's the law. Do you comply?
Robert Mugabe knocks on your farm door, saying - get out, though you legally own this land and have farmed it for 100 years, or I'll kill you. That's the law. Do you comply?
The interpretation of law rests in the individual. Not in courts. Not in judges.
It rests in you and I.
That was the glorious spirit of the US Constitution. And I heartily wish the UK had a similar constitution.
A bad law may be explained, but it is still a bad law. And it must be ignored. But a bad law that is not explained, is a law imposed by tyrants. And in a free society, like yours and mine, it must be challenged.
Join me in handcuffs?
John
This message was edited Tuesday, Sep 10th 2:18 PM
>Join me in handcuffs? <
Never!
As a rational anarchist, the one thing I cannot abide is incarceration.
I might kill you, but I would never lock you up behind bars.
>I don't know US history. What I do know is, morality<
John, John, John. You say that as though "morality" is a universally condoned code of behavior. It is not, and never has been. Even within a particular culture, the defination changes over time.
>The interpretation of law rests in the individual. Not in courts. Not in judges.
It rests in you and I. <
Not to play semantics, but the interpretation does, indeed, rest in courts and judges. What the individual decides is whether or not to obey that law, or that interpretation, keeping in mind that the choice also includes recognition of the consequences, and willingness to pay them.
By the way, if you want to know where you really fit---morally, legally, and philosophically, you need only answer one question with complete honesty: When is it moral for the state to do that which is not moral for the individual members of the state to do?
The anarchist says "never." The communist says "always." All of us fit somewhere on that continuum.
Meanwhile, we're getting pretty far from our muttons with this discussion. Maybe we better get back on topic?
Yes. You're right, we're getting off subject. Perhaps I've been reading too much Ayn Rand of late.
I only know that, in any moral question, I am the final arbiter. Nobody else is qualified. Because morality is me.
Like every saluter of the US flag, I despise laws that oppress freedom. And sometimes - just sometimes, as in Nazi Germany - you are morally obliged to shoot those judges who oppress personal freedom.
I commend you to John Stuart Mill 'On Liberty'. He was an ass, but he said some good things.
Okay, okay, I'm a pinko intellectual. I'll wander off now, and shoot caterpillars and post here in future - wondrous suggestions, on confuting aphids with garlic.
But it won't be the same...
Yours, confuted
JOHN
>wondrous suggestions, on confuting aphids with garlic. <
Ohmigod! You gonna waste garlic on bugs? The very shame of it all.