Viola Irish Molly 'Irish Molly'

Flowering it's head off August 2002

Oh, Baa, I love this one! It reminds me a bit of my blue bronze ones http://plantsdatabase.com/go/31639/ Now that I think of it, I should have listed it under viola rather than pansy, since it has the small flower. Is that the determining factor in whether they are referred to as violas or pansies?

I think Velour Bronze has IM as a parent somewhere down the line. Viola crossings give me a headache but I'm glad others know what they are doing with them LOL.

You would ask the million dollar question, wouldn't you *G*. The determining factor between Pansy and Viola is open to much debate and no one has the absolute answer since botany always has an exception to the rule (even this one *G*).

Basically, Violas are usually scented, more compact, have a multistemmed root system, often the flowers are rounded and have rays (I've always called them whiskers).

Pansys, generally have a 'face', a single stemmed root system, faintly or unscented, rounded flowers and are a little shorter lived than Violas

Then we come on to Violettas, these are more compact than violas, small, fragrant and oval shaped flowers with no rays but a yellow central marking

The whole thing is confused by the nurseries who quite often list pansies as violas and vice versa. At the end of the day the parentage of these plants is complicated to say the least!

Well, Baa, you are right.. it was a million dollar question... a can of worms as we Yanks would say. I've often pondered this question, but have always considered size because it seems to be the determining factor in the catalogs. Of course the genus is "viola" so I guess they are all technically violas. I have grown the "Atlas" pansies, and they have absolutely no face, but the bloom is large. Sorbet violas are small, but they have faces.

My understanding is that violas & pansies are short-lived perennials, and it has been my experience that the large faced ones, that I call pansies, sometimes live over. I had an orange one and a yellow one that lived for several years. However, they are not as likely to reseed. However, the little violas don't winter over, but reseed like crazy.

When you speak of violettas, are you refering to the species violas that I would call violets? We have pale lavender marsh violets here (V. epipsila) and yellow violets (not sure which ones). My neighbor has marsh violets in her yard that have choked the grass out!

All pansies, violas and violettas are derived from the complicated crossings of V. tricolor, V. cornuta, V. lutea with a couple of other species thrown in once in a while. So there is little clear difference in the parentage to say this is a viola and this is a pansy. As you have illustated there are exceptions to the previous rules which just confuses matters. (When I use the small case name viola, I'm referring to the hybrid violas and not the genus ;)

As you've pointed out, they are short lived perennials in the main. The pansies rarely overwinter for us because our soil has Pansy Sickness. We have to keep the plants we want in pots and even then they usually just reseed everywhere and with some interesting combinations. The most recent in the garden being a bright yellow with a small red face and a thin red picotee edging.

Violettas aren't Violets, they are small hybrids, on the link there are a mixture of violas and violetta pics (they are all lovely *G*)
http://ourworld-top.cs.com/DaveyWils/Catalog.htm

One arguable difference between the species Violas and the hybrids is the cleistogamous nature of the species. Pansies, violas and violettas tend to have a long conspicuous flowering period over summer (although they can and sometimes do produce a few cleistogamous flowers). The species are often seen as spring flowerers but this isn't always the case as the Violas tend to continue to flower right through summer but produce tiny flowers under the leaves after the first 'showy' flush. These tiny flowers rarely open and self pollenate, the curious thing I find about this is that the cleistogamous flowers tend to produce more viable seed than the showy, open flowers. Have a look under the leaves next time you pass a species.

(I don't know why cleistogamous hasn't come up blue, it's in gardenology)

This message was edited Friday, Aug 9th 6:19 AM

What an interesting concept, Baa, the cleistogamous viola! Because violas are such tarts and breed wherever they please, I haven't considered this aspect of their social life.

WZ

I have 3 Viola koreana, the Cyclamen Leaved Violet. Not one of them seems to flower they are completely cleistogamous or have been so far. I was looking at the tiny buds yesterday and thinking what a good illustration of cleistogamy!

Oh, Baa, the violas become more interesting by the posting.. I'll definitely check out my marsh violets for buds under the leaves. I know that these fellows self-seed readily in the usual way, so I'm not sure they would bother with cleistogamous seeding... I'll take a look and let you know.

I'm very interested in the violettas.. are they a hybrid cross between species violets and violas? I wonder if they would grow well here. Can one purchase seed, or does one have to propagate by root?

I have some violas that come up in my south bed every spring. If a warm spring allows me to remove the mulch early, they are up and blooming in mid to late spring. They were originally derived from a sorbet mix of plants I purchased from a local nursery, then they reseeded each year. Before long, all colors seemed to quit returning except the blue.

Now many of the blue ones are marked like what we call a "Johnny Jump Up", except they are blue instead of violet purple. Each spring, I transplant the nicer plants to the front of the bed, and they bloom all summer and late into the fall. It's quite fun to watch their evolution. I take seed from all my volunteer varieties and grow a few from seed, lest they not come up in the beds... but they always do!

Baa, Most of my seed came from T & M, and I followed their suggestions for germination. Germinate at 60-68 degrees on the surface of seed mix (I mostly use Sunshine seed starting mix) and a fine sprinkling of vermiculite just covering the seed.,usually placed in a baggie.

Haven't planted any seeds yet this year. As I remember, the seeds germinated fairly well, but lost them after transplanting, which I think my fault for trans. into a mix of my own which had organic type fert. added. Soil was maybe too rich.

Hate to show my lack, but I have never heard or seen the work cleistogamy before, so am not sure of the meaning.

DonnaS

Hi, Donna. I'm so glad you resurrected this thread! With all the interest in a Viola forum, I was thinking about looking for it myself! I'll let Baa pop back in with explanations, since she knows what she is talking about, but maybe I can help with the viola propagation.

Most of our pansies and so called 'violas' germinate at room temp. Sometimes darkness is recommended for better germination. I've read lots of posts here on DG about failures in germinating violas and pansies, but I've always had good luck.

When it comes to violets, violettas, etc., the propagation requirements are a bit more complicated. Tom Clothier's site has wonderful info on seed germination, so if you can determine the species, this may be of help: http://tomclothier.hort.net/page04.html (You may have to scroll down to get to the violas.) My success with these species violets has been very limited, but it seems winter sowing works best for me.

Here's the Garden Term entry for Cleistogamous http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/1975.html

Bascially the plant produces buds that never open but produce fertile seed. Some Viola species produce these cleistogamous buds over quite a long time but they take some searching for!

I know my marsh violets do this. After you mentioned these buds, I began to notice them tucked in among the leaves.

dThankyou both for your help in my understanding of cleistogamous. Next spring I will inspect my various violets and violas more closely.

It is certainly much too cold to go outside to look an any now, If there are any under the leaves I think they would be frozen solid. It is in the teens right now and expected to reach single digits by morning, and that is without the wind chill factor.

DonnaS

Yes, that's a chilly night, Donna! Our temps have warmed up again around here. I've got a rather bad picture of those little seed pods on one of my violets, I think, I'll have to look it up tomorrow.