Continuation of first thread, found here: http://davesgarden.com/showthread/189572.html#new
Brugmansia hybridizers Global Association (BHGA)#2
tiG, sorry for the disorder *lol*
The example website in question is located here:
http://daturagarden.topcities.com/Example/
It is made to create the feel and touch of, how an International Brugmansia hybridizer list could be like and will develop accordingly to incoming suggestions.
Maybe we should also consider another organisation title, than Brugmansia hybridizers Global Association (BHGA).
Brugmansia hybridizers International is easier to remember and so is its abbreviation BHI, but it is only a suggestion and I am sure, that you can come up with several better ones :)
I must say that is indeed a wonderful picture Tonny and a wonderful hybrid. I can't wait to create some Ida x aurea and aurea x Ida hybrids...Ida x Double white aurea....Here's to dreaming...Surely you must know I am not using any arborea pollen on my arborea's...well, maybe just one seedpod as I want to see at least one seedpod. My dream crosses would be any aurea x arborea cross of course and next to that any double x Rothkirch, Rosabelle, Butterfly, Ecuador pink...
This message was edited Tuesday, Feb 12th 3:05 PM
Species list example:
I have uploaded an example on a species list, where the hybrids are listed according to species/ Color/alphabetical.
The list is far from complete, but it give a rudimentary impression of how many hybrid we deal with.
Some of the text is cut`n`paste (that is why it is not a public list and only an example), but these lines will be changes as soon as I can check the descriptions against available pictures on the www or the hybridizers own descriptions.
Please bear with the quality. There are neither added color or special text. It is only the visual impression of an idea and I like you to play along.
Last suggestions were:
Eric:
Pictures of each parent when available side by side the new seedling so one can make comparisons of parents...perhaps a link with notable siblings as well pasted side by side....
Kyle:
Father left..mother right..offspring in the middle..that kinda chart would be nice I also think a black background poster with angled profiles of different brugs and a pic of the species seed pod below each pic would be very helpful to everyone..something to shoot for!
http://daturagarden.topcities.com/Example/
I really like the site you've started and I think it's great. I can't wait till I get to put one of mine in there!!
Tonny,
Part of the requirements should also states that a new hybrid can not be name using an already existing hybrid's name.
Are you considering setting a limit on the length of a name, how many characters.
this is getting exciting, seeing this come about.
Seesh Tonny... you are good! I can't believe you've got so much together already!
Tim, that is a good idea. I think that the "hybrid"-list could also function as a list of already taken names :)
I like to have some examples on limits on hybrids name giving. Sounds interesting :)
Today I will upload a partly finished list sorted alphabetical according to first letter in the hybrid name.
Tim what is the length of daylily names, they probably choose a number for a good reason, and why fight success? we could just adopt the same number, right?
tiG,
I'm not sure, but Passiflora hybrids name can not be more than 20 characters.
Tonny,
Names of 20-30 characters should be fine, correct?
I think 20 is plenty enough, jmo.
JMO-just my opinion. I don't know if you include spaces or not.
Thinking of Daylilies, often a name is re-used, but with a different prefix, such as 'David Kirchoff', and 'Siloam David Kirchoff'. This allows someone to use a name they really like, but which has been 'taken'. A limit of 20 letters would probably prevent this from happening... Now, is that a good thing or not? (I know, bad example, it is still under 20 characters, unless one counts spaces...then it is 21). This is a wonderful project, and hope it works out well! John
With John's example, then the limit should be set at 30, anything between 'except for spaces', how does that sound?
Tonny,
Will there be a committee, to decide if a new hybrid is good enough, passing the naming, characteristics, etc, before adding it to the list?
Why wont we make it 30 letters and let the little man downstairs take the spaces in between and also the citation marks (" ")?
Could be interesting with a committee. On the other hand I don`t know how necessary it is, because hybridizer most often have lot higher critical standarts, than any nursery or customer, so I think this would solve the problem :) I am thinking in particular of some of Eric, Monika and Kyle`s hybrids, that probably would make us all drool, but by their own standarts, these are not good enough for release, before they are improved by further crosses :)Please don`t take my comment as a sign, that I rule out, that we need a such comittee, because there could be reason for forming it, that I can not see *lol* I like to forward the question to all our members ... Let me know, what you think?
I thing I like to see is our own Hallmark or "Blue-stamp". As Monika mentioned, the worth of new released hybrids is unrecognized by the nurseries making fortunes of them. I would write more about what a such contract could be defined, but as we are in a non-profit forum I am not sure, that DG will approve of such a discussion, so I better leave it, ... but if any of you are interested in knowing more and also want to ad to the development this idea, we can have a chat on MS Messenger or I can put up a private chatroom and mail you the link and publicise the results on a website :)
Tonny,
Thank you for all your work. First let me offer any photos I have for you to use. All I ask is that I am given the copyright with my name.
Second, the Hallmark is a good idea but only if the new brug meets certain criteria and then voted on by the members of the organization –how you qualify to be a member is another issue. Is the brug included because it has huge flowers, color, disease resistance, or tolerates heat. If the brug is ugly and disease resistant, then what? In other words, there needs to be a standard to measure the quality of the new brug. Possibly a point system.
If size is a criteria, a photo of a brug and showing how it is measured for size is needed. I am including a link from Anne Kirchner-Abel and Werner Abel’s book on how they measure flowers. It is an excellent example of making a clear statement about how the sizes are arrived at that they use in their book. Just some thoughts.
Try this link http://www2.netdoor.com/~hward/brugmeasurement.jpg to see page of book.
I have moved the Brugmansia list to a new address to gain more web space:
http://brugmansia.topcities.com/
Current available web space is 150 MB. It would be far from enough in the long run, but sufficient for a start.
As there are now 11 separate web pages I think, that it is maybe time to consider and agree on a layout (bagground color, font type, font color etc).
BWard,
I like very much to ad your pictures. If you make some copies of these and mark them with your copyright, then we can have the uploaded in short time :)
btw. If you have hybridized any Brugmansias I like you to have your page on the list :)
I agree, that we have to find out, how to qualify to be a member of the list :) But I can`t figure out the criterias. Maybe we all could participate in working the criterias out :)
I like the point system, that you suggest. Using a point system will allow us to take all available hybrids on the list for a start and give them points according to their qualities. Maybe we got to have a point system for each major quality, for example cold/ heat tolerance, virus tolerance, flower shape, flower color etc.?
It is a great way to measure the flower :D I gave it much consideration, how this could be done and I think, what you suggest here is the proper way to do it :) Maybe we should start to make drawings of how to measure different crucial plant parts and ad drawings to a list of definitions (petiole, leaf, stem, branch, growth parts, floral parts etc)?
Lenes son Thomas think, that the website will be much too large, if it is made in HTML (maybe more than 1000 MB) and told me, that it could also be written in another website language called PHP. In HTML every raw page is made by an individual scrip and take a lot of space, but in PHP only one page has to be defined and then the text and/ or pictures will be added to this single page from a Database.
This will also allow us to search on the webpage with different search criterias and allow us to list for instance all suaveolens hybrids with single, yellow flowers measuring more than 28½ cm and made before 1999 and complicated searches as that :)
I don`t know, if Thomas will get time, but if he does; I like him to learn me, how to do it that way. Not only will it save space, but we can also make individual searches and the pages will open quickly even on computers with low speed internet access.
LMK, what you think?
What about me? Lol, I breed for smaller type flowers, but I don't restrict a hybrid based on size. I like velvety, serrated, rolling, wrinkled, etc type leaves...heck I love the culebra leaves....I am most selective in only picking out hybrids that bloom in the first year from seed. All others are culled. Of the 3 hybrids I am most proud of...they are all very clear peach, pink, or pink to peach with yellow stripes. The ones I am least proud of are simply orange and the tendril lenght is not very long either. I agree we should have some sort of method to releasing these hybrids. My suggestion, we could have members of this organization vote on a hybrid before it was released. Perhaps have a rule that only members who have been members for 3 or more years can vote a hybrid in? Regardless of what is done, I will continue to hybridize as I love to hybridize Brugmansia. I won't release anymore Brugmansia though until I have a double in color and thats a promise. Of course they will pale in comparison to Monika's and so many other wonderful double hybrids out there, but I take my hybridizing seriously. No more from me till I get a double in color or if a miracle happens an aurea x arborea....Perhaps we could make some sort of scale based on ability to set seed and or quality's as a pollen donor...I don't know...I just like to ramble. As for me, unless I get an aurea x arborea cross or a double in color you won't see any more hybrids from me. Thats a good mark to shoot for anyway. Perhaps that will keep me in line anyways and I can work on my single aurea forms up till the day I get my doubles going....I must admit this is exciting.
Brugmansia,
I only indicated, "if size is a criteria." Possibly, the size criteria should be based on what the hybridizer is trying to achieve.
I agree the some of the most beautiful flowers are small. Huge is not always what is best. I am sure that other members are more knowledgeable than I am on what other organizations use to judge the merits of a new hybrid --no need to reinvent the wheel
Also, some of my favorite brugs are white. While everyone seems to want red or dark rose.
Bward, I agree with you 100%. I must confess my favorite trait of all...the one thing I like more than shape, color, etc...is fragrance and that can't be put over on a web page.
I think they should be judged on a overall points system.The size really shouldn't be the basis for acknowlging a hybrid.Small is good and so is big.What should be done is each seperate variety have a points list.Peaks on a Suavenolens are small compared to some others so it shouldn't be judged against peak length of others.Color ,size of leaf,difficulty in growing,early or late blooming,virus resistance,quality of bloom,length of blooming period,size of mature plant,etc...should be given points.Say ,each thing your judging,lets say color,is 20 points,leaves are 5 points etc....have them total a maximum of 100 .Take the hybrid,have the panel judge it,have them add up their points,then average them.Set a points limit,such as a new hybrid to be registered has to score 80 of a possible 100 points.
C.C:,
I tried to make a list of qualities to be defined. It is far from completed and maybe one of you can ad to it and re-phrase it :)
Growth habit:
Branching:
Growth speed:
Maximum plant size:
Leaf shape:
Leaf size:
Leaf pubescence:
Calyx:
Flower shape:
Flower color:
Flower size:
Blooming capacity:
Blooming type:
Blooming season:
Pollen status:
Pistil status:
Used for in crossed:
Fruits:
Seeds:
Seeds viabillity:
Sowing season:
Maybe we also need to summarize the ideas, we had to now and try to phrase these?
btw. ... no, nothing more for now *lol*
I see a real need here to make sure that our hybrids are not simply repeats of old hybrids, but are substantial improvements or at least different in measurable ways. I keep coming back to this link and I can't agree more. We all love our seedlings, but we need each other to keep us in check so to speak as its too easy to fall in love with one's own creation. I can't wait to see how this turns unfolds...I know...its been stated already...I just can't stand the wait.
What if some like a tall plant and others prefer a short plant? I do like the tall plants as long as there is enough substance. I would take a short bushy plant over a tall sparse one any day. I'm with Eric, I love fragrant plants, but some may not care (or be allergic).
Tonny, I think yours and CC's list are great starts.
You are absolutely right, Cala and Eric. Large or small in regard of flower size or full grown specimen is neither a good or bad quality, but LMK what you think of growing speed, how long from germination to the first flower, cold - or/ and heat tolerance, virus susceptibillity
... speaking of opposite pairs: I think I prefer a highly virus tolerant species with an ugly flower to a very susceptibl with a nice one ... the ugly flower can be turned beautiful in a later generation, whereas the beautiful specimen already is beautiful, but it will not help it, when infected *lol*
What are the most resistant species you know? (maybe two groups here, one very resistent in cooler zones, other very resistant in warmer zones???).
I also feel, like we need a category for remarks of other diseases, eg. the HG disease and others as well ... ?
Do you think it is possible to create and agree on a language terms, we can use to describe fragrance, so for instance if tiG know, what whiskers fragrance is, that I could use her memory - so to speak - to describe the fragrance of aurea gold, so she can imagine it vividly by refering it to her whiskers memory?
This message was edited Friday, Feb 15th 12:33 PM
Tonny,
Will you have a form download that we can all keep our records on? If I missed this in a previous post, I'm sorry.
Shirley
What I mean is something that will have all the information on it that we can put check marks or comments on while we keep records of a particular cross or growth habits of one we are getting ready for crossing, etc. This would be for our personal use, not on the computer, but paper, to be submitted if we get something great like the double pink. I probably am not making myself very clear on this. A method for keeping records. Help someone!!
That's it Tonny........I thought of printable later, but am just used to using "download" because I usually save that stuff in my puter so I can use it later......I'm computer illiterate you know. Do good to hit the right keys most of the time.
Thanks Tonny. Just thought that a universal form might be helpful. I would forget something if it wasn't right in front of my face.
Thread continues here: http://davesgarden.com/showthread/192865.html
This message was edited Saturday, Feb 16th 7:16 AM