Sharing Protocol

On another thread there was a mention of getting burned. im curious to know the protocol involved in buying and sharing brugs.
do you patent, release, and then receive royalties? like roses?
say, if whiskers was being sold on a website, would gloria receive a % of every whiskers sold? would that create the infamous renaming of them to prevent nurseries from paying royalties?
what is the benefit of hybridizing if there is no financial gain.
i have to admit, im guilty of sending cuttings to quite a few people with no thought to the person who created it. should i have?
always curious
jen

that's why I asked Eric about his to begin with. Haven't asked Gloria, cause those aren't big enough to share yet.

Jen, I have never patented my brugs as it takes almost $1000.00 to do so and the legal ramifications are unbelieveable unless you can actually monitor the company that is growing them for you.When you give away an unpatented plant..ANYBODY can sell it and you get squat!I have never made a penny on any of my brugmansia hybrids and I see they are now available all over the world via the net.I saw some on a french website today. So unless you patent a variety you will get no royalties and sometimes no credit.Once a hybrid of say....`Kyles Giant White' gets released to the trade..anyone can rename it and sell it as their own hybrid.A buyer /homeowner buys a plant of one of my hybrids and plants it in his yard. He loses and forgets the name of it..and along comes a tourist that takes a cutting..he doesn't know which one it is ..so he renames it whatever he wants and sells it on Ebay..now we have a certain hybrid..made by me that is selling for money with more than one name. see the dilemma??Thats how I got burned on my hybrids..it makes me leary to even introduce them anymore..

Is there an official registry for Brugmansia, as for other genera, such as roses, hostas, hemerocallis...? John

Pardancanda there is no registry at the moment..we need a Stud Book like on other hybrid plants..to keep all these hybrids listed and recorded.So many crosses are duplicated...and many times all seedlings are named..but not enough difference of traits to make them worthy of naming.We all want our plants to be special..so we name them...but on the market we need to start culling the weak and dup;icates and develop a registry for the rest. :-)

tiG....Please do pass them on.

I am sorry Kyle that you got burnt! But what would you do, if you had given large seedlings to somebody believed to be trustworthy,for nothing, just claiming the breeders right which was promised by that person. Two years later you see large pictures of a double Pink in several garden magazines claimed by this person as a World Hit and own hybrid. I cannot prove if these are my seedlings but I can compare them with the ones I kept.I am more than burnt, believe me!

Have plants patented in Germany costs about € 6000. There is no guarantee that the money ever comes in again. All what they have to do is sell it under another name.

I have a small nursery. But I have every year unwanted visitors. Retailers wanting to see whats new. All they ask for is a tiny cutting (of course only for a trade for
plants you do not want to have). And if you dare not give them the requested cutting you very quick have a bad name.
As I always have given the information about the crosses, they repeat the breeding and throw them on the market as their own result. One of them said to me once; if they dont get the plants from me, they must breed it themselves.
Now its breeders secret, when asked!

Hybrids needs to be tested for at least two years, before put on the market. Here in Germany everything goes out, each of the retailers want to top each other by claiming the most hybrids on its list or cataloge. There are 25 pink colored B. suaveolens - Hybrids with different names but all look the same. CG for instance with 4 different names, and the retailer knows that they are identical with Ch. Grimaldi.

I tried to bring something like a Stud book into the german society. Oh, they wanted to have it, to get hold of all my records but were not willing to make a selection in their own collection. I gave up and enjoy my plants, which is much better.

Monika, that's something we talked about here back during the summer. At first we all want every named brug there is, and then we were finding out so many are so similar. I hate that you and Kyle have been burnt, you both have added so much to our enjoyment. It's a shame and unfair.

Kyle, you're very right in that we all want one to name ourselves, and I'm as guilty as the rest. But only for in my yard:) and for my kids. but there's that dream that will all the lessons we've been having, that one day I can do something.

Gloria, thank you, I know when my babies get bigger that I can share them.

That is so sad,I wish there was someway to fix the system.The only good point I can see to the hybridization is the personal satisfaction that you get from knowing that you have created a beautiful creation and therefore have contibuted to the continued popularity of the type of plant.Its kinda like when we are breeding our Polish chickens,we spent years getting our WC Blues to the point of being show quality ,the lacing ,color,etc...Now when we sell or give the eggs and chicks away( we give 4H kids birds and chicks for free),those people say that they are their bloodline(some are honest and say where they came from),they win shows and start selling the offspring and we don't receive credit.Chuck acually saw some pictures of some chickens for sale that he thought looked like our bloodline and on investigation found they were offspring from birds we had sold to someone.But that really makes no difference to us,we have no control over what happens to the birds when they leave here,we are in the buisness of raising and breeding to help the breed,not to get rich from it,(no one gets rich from raising chickens)its the personal satisfaction of knowing that others are enjoying something that we had a hand in creating. I'm feeling the same way about hybridizing the brugs or anything else.It has to be first and foremost done to make yourself happy,and for YOUR OWN gradifacation,if later others enjoy it too,then you have the credit if only in your own mind.What Kyle and Monika have done (and others ) is wonderful and we all enjoy the fruits of their work,and although they will never get all the credit they deserve,their names will for all time go down in Brugmansia history and they will always be remembered........

Monika, you are a treasure. so are you CC.

Again I am down to my experience with Datura in a forum about Brugmansia :( Nevertheless, I will write much more about Brugs as time passes and the experiences grow wider.

In 1996 I started a breeding program for Datura hybrids (inoxia x meteloides, meteloides x inoxia, inoxia x wrightii, wrightii x inoxia, meteloides x wrightii, wrightii x meteloides, metel x the mentioned, the mentioned x metel). There was three major obstacles to be overcome. First, the difficulties of stabilizing the hybrids so much, that their seeds would give plants reasonable identical to their hybrid parents. Next, the costs of plant news protection (patent almost same prizes, that Monika mention for Germany). Three, the two years of testing, if the hybrids would come true from seeds. I gave up. If I could make hybrids, that would breed true and could afford the patents (there was many), there would still be an annual fee to maintain the patent and as Monika mention, no guarantee, that these would sell.

The result was, that I culled the hybrids and forgot about it, but it was a nice time, when I didn`t know the implications of having them patented, because at that time I was allowed to dream about it :)

Eric learned me, that hybrids could easily be stabilized to breed true, by crossing two diploids and afterwards treat the seeds with colchicine to create tetraploids. The result would be a new "species" (still a hybrid, but but species in the meaning, that the offspring will look like the parent plant(s) ), that would come true from propagation through seeds.

Very well said CC. It is such a shame that what takes someone years of knowledge and hard work to develope can be used for someone elses profits.Unfortunately it happens every day and the good, kind people are taken advantage of.Luckily we are just a bunch of happy Brug growers that grow these beautiful plants for the enjoyment of seeing the beautiful flowers that they produce.

Monika, as far as we know ..other than Tommie Lockwood in the 70's I guess I was the first collector and hybridizer in USA than we can trace..I started about 1986 or 87 and I did it just to be able to have more colors and kinds. There were only about 4 or 5 kinds I could even locate at that time.So it never was for the money...I had a dream as a kid to develop some kind new flower than I could visit a large nursery or catalog and see "MY" plant that I had created.I reached that pinnacle a few years ago and now I'm off to more lofty ideals!!But it really makes me mad..several companies I dealt with burn't me good..always promising to send me any new kinds they developed or acquired.Well I got one little box in the beginning and a book then nothing but excuses!I was the one that enlightened 3 different growers and collectors to the where abouts of the Preissel bros in Germany and some other collectors..they said we will get an import permit and then share ALL new hybrids with you..two years later THEY have all the new stock..I have promises!!They love money and as Monika said all I asked for was the right to publicity about my hybrids.They did that much. I gave them hours worth of work as far as pics and info for their catalogs and a simple thanks was what I got....so guess what???? No more hybrids go to these people..I would rather keep them at home...but the emails go on.....I tell then how bout a few cuttings of some new kinds..they say"Well what have you got to trade"??? Can you believe the nerve...I am generous by nature..but these people live only to say we carry the most kinds and have already made $1000.00's of dollars off my plants over the years and still I get squat! End of lecture!!I feel better now I have vented!!LOL sad but long story Monika we share alot in common :-)

It is indeed a shame that folks such as yourselves have spent so much time, energy and money developing new breeds, be it chickens, brugs or dats, and not get the recognition nor the financial rewards that go along with it.
This said, I have enjoyed the pictures of all the brugs, and I know that personally, I will never achieve such greatness, but will benefit from all the hard work that has been put into such programs. Of course, I am a simple gardener, a fairly new one at that, and have a small collection of brugs that I grow for the absolute divine pleasure I receive in watching them grow and bloom for me. Last year I only saw 3 brugs in my garden bloom, and one of my neighbours had the audacity to say "what's the big deal, it looks like a squash flower hanging upside down" well, I was hurt, was it my specimen that was not as spectacular as the photos I've been seeing or was it my neighbours blindness or ignorance?
I applaud you growers/hybriders the effort and dedication it takes to achieve such greatness

and I thank you for the opportunity in sharing in your glory!

i never quite thought of it as a squash blossom hanging upside down, lol..but now that you have made the comparison, it mustve been charlie, eh?

jen

How sad. How incredibly sad! Monika and Kyle, I would LOVE to know what companies burned you so I will NEVER do business with them. Since they obviously "worship the allmighty dollar", I for one will hit them where it hurts. I realize that my "hit" will be more like a "love tap", but it's a start, huh? If either of you don't feel like publicizing the company name here on the forum, feel free to e-mail me directly with the names. wingnut@moment.net Also, call me kooky, but I don't want any plants that have any bad-vibe baggage attached to them by being grown by unscrupulous people like that. So letting me know would be doing me a favor as well, if you don't mind.

My God! Wanting to make you TRADE for things when you've already GIVEN them the materials to make thousands of dollars?! And re-naming YOUR plants it took years to develop and calling them THEIR OWN??! The NERVE! I sincerely hope that when the karma train comes roaring down the tracks and runs them down, you two will be there to see it. I REALLY don't want to unknowingly do business with people like that, so, again, if you don't mind, PLEASE let me know who it is.

Linda

Wow,
This is disgusting really and truly. I've seen plants by a certain retailer in the U.S. and on their website and they have Kyle's Pink and I think a Kyle's White also listed for sale. You mean to say Kyle that you never got royalties for these plants?

How is one ever going to collect royalites from new crosses they create if people all over North America and Europe are selling plants and renaming them? What about small growers and hybridizers who cannot afford the fees, what then? How on earth can you track which nurseries, wholesalers, retailers etc. are selling your plants even if you wanted to sue them for copyright infrigment? This really needs to be disgussed further I think.

Earlier Tonny talked about creating a Brugmansia Association. Perhaps we should talk about this further to find some sort of resolve to this problem of copyright infringement.

For example, Eric for one has created many hybrids and SHOULD receive compensation for his work. Perhaps through the collection of dues as an Association we could do this to help the smaller hybridizer. Each year we could pay the fees to register a few new hybrids and do a promotional launch and of course through contract negiotions Eric could collect fees from anyone who has his hybrids and intends to resell them. Just my opinion, anyone else have any input regarding this matter.

Joydie

pebble, your 'squash blossom' must have been some spectacular color to let your neighbour make the comparison!

Joydie, I agree we might talk further about Tonny's idea for a Brugmansia Association. Perhaps start a new thread, and work on this idea.

John

John my "squash blossom" was spectacular to me...and that's what counts ultimately doesnt it? Since I wasnt entering a contest or anything - lol
but...I'll never forget that remark...funny how things just get on your nerves.

Joydie the only way to collect royalties is to patent a plant. That means at least two years of trials(growing and evaluating the plants) and then lawyers and fees to the Patent office etc.Its really not a great plan....I am seeing about patenting a hybrid canna i developed...but may sell the rights to the grower and have them pay the patent fees etc.
As for Kyles pink..that is another persons hybrid named after their kid...Kyles Giant white is my hybrid. :-)

Jodie, what webside listed Kyle's Pink? Brugman just named "kyle's pink" last november or so after one of his kids, curious.

Eclipse, that sounds like a practical way to benefit in some way, selling the rights and letting them hassle...good luck with that, let us know how it works. bet its a beauty.

Several times I made the suggestion here in Germany that retailers should give 1 DM to the breeder of each sold plant. This would have not been asked to much by a price up to DM 25 for a rooted cutting. I felt like a preacher in the desert. No response at all. It wasnt even worth to answer me. Silence all the way.

Don't the hosta nad daylily hybridizers get the money when the plant is first registered/released by charging high prices for the new varieties? I've seen hosta and daylilies go for $300.00(I've been with a friend when she paid that for a daylily, my limit was 1/3 of that) I figured I could wait till it came down in price, but some people can't wait and have to have the new ones right now and are willing to pay.

Brugmansias are considered of no economical value here in Europe. Every year, millons of annuals are raised and sold. Brugmansias maybe 10.000. No retailer would give a dime when he can get the plants for a cent.

Monika, it is a true shame that your fantastic work isn't appreciated. But know that it is by us, we think you're wonderful.

tig, Mme Blin for instance would deserve acknowledgment, as she is the breeder of quite a few well selling hybrids. She is now 79 years old and has only a little pension. She had raised and still does with passion Brugmansias. All of these Brug loving retailers started their buissness with free and willingly given rooted cuttings or plants by Mme Blin. They call or write only when they want plants from her. Some of them keep begging and begging until she sends it and many of them never said thank you to her afterwards nor offered to pay at least for the postage.

Monika, it's hard to believe that there are people like that, but I know there are. Please give her our best wishes and regard. If I could buy from her, I would.

That is truly a shame Monika!

Theres several growers like that in this country..they figure well I'll buy a plant when its released and propagate a million of them at $20 each and to hell with any rights..I can't even get most of the retailers to give me credit for being the hybridizer..they only WORSHIP the dollar..or in Monikas cause the DM.

Brugmansias are considered of no economical value here in Europe, but that is why, we have to take certain steps to make them valuable and when we have done so, we are in a favoralbe position to set better conditions, - but certainly not a minute before!

Mme Blin would deserve acknowledgment, but not only her. All Brugmansia hybridizers deserve to be appreciated for the time and efford spend to ad beauty to the world.

I want to see the day, where we will be appreciated just as much, as the breaders of Hostas and Daylillies and want, that Mme. Blin will be with us at that day of appreciation.

Retailers should give 1 DM to the breeder of each sold plant ... or 1 Dollars! Or better yet: The retailers should give a fixed percentage of the sales price to the hybridizer.

If we stand together in this demand, we will no longer feel like preachers in the desert. The retailers will no longer be begging for our precious new cutting to make profit! We can turn the wheel of destiny, so that they will be begging us for the oputinity to pay the fixed percentage of their retail prices, in the hope, that we will grant them the oppotunity to sell our hybrids.

We can`t change, what happened to Mme. Blin.

- But we can avoid, that we end up in the same situation.

That is so sad that people are only driven by money. Mme Blin should not even answer their requests for free plants. But we don't live in a perfect world and there will always be people like that. "Karma" usually takes care of things, what goes around comes around. These people will find that money isn't the most important thing in life. And I'm sure they can't enjoy brugmansias as much as us if all they care about is selling more and ripping people off. So much for my ranting.

This is all very sad. I grow and hybridize out of a love of hybridizing as most hybridizers do. I must confess that Kyle's hybrids were some of first hybrids I have grown to love. Monika's hybrids of course are among everyones wants all over the Brugmansia loving world. Tonny's Ida, I love that hybrid as well. Having anothers hybrids is having the opportunity to step off of their shoulders and go on. One expects hybrids created to continually get better and not just the same or a minor variation on the old.