I've been going from company to company tonight and found this plant (again) and wondered if it could be possible to use it to gain new color in brugs? Please understand that I know nothing about hybridizing but wondered since this plant is in the same family if it could be possible. These plants come in several colors of blue, violet, scarlet, etc. No yellows or oranges. If this is a stupid question, just let me know. I sure would like to find a way to get some blue and purple into our favorite plant though.
IOCHROMA, Solanaceae, Tropical So. America. Relatives of the “Angel’s Trumpets” (Brugmansia), Iochromas are more refined with smaller leaves and brightly colored 3" tubular flowers that flare 1/2" to 1" wide at the tips, and come in large, densely flowered clusters.
Would this be possible......
Not a stupid question -- I asked it myself recently so I should know
Horticult7 (Marjory Harris)
El Cerrito, CA
mailto:horticult7@earthlink.net
Brugie, that's it!! i saw an iochroma at a nursery in town last spring, i wanted it (butterfly/hummer food), but i wouldn't spend 7.00 on it. I am off there this weekend, no, i'll call and they will find me one!!!!!
i am sure someone has tried crossing purple daturas with brugs, right????
Arlene, I grew Daturas last year and never thought of crossing it to a Brug. This year the only Datura that I will be growing is a triple purple from seeds that I got in a trade.I am going to try crossing it to a double white Brug that I got from MSJen. It won't hurt to try. :)
It can be done between Datura and Brugs by cell tissue - or embryo culture, so why not Iochromas.
http://www.geocities.com/lisarts/Summer_Scent_L/BrugDatHybx.html
Please enjoy also the Brugs and Dats on the additional pages :)
There are several chapters in this good old book on Datura (mostly) and Brugmansia chromozomes, compatible and incompatible crosses and embryoculture. I don`t have it present, but I remember that there is a page describing the exact procedures and ingrediences for growing Datura embryos.
If you don`t have it present, the Botanical Library will.
Avery, A. G. (1959) Historical review. Avery AG et al (ed) Blakeslee: The genus Datura. Ronald Press, New York (Chap 1):3-15
Note: I see on the website, that Rich has the book.
This message was edited Thursday, Dec 13th 9:56 PM
Tonny, So you can't just pollinate a Brug to a Datura or a Datura to a Brug? What if you took say 10% pollen from the Brug and mixed it with Datura pollen and then pollinated a Brug with it?
REALLY IT WILL WORK FOR DATURA X BRUG??? IF IT DOES WORK, I WILL TRY MINE HAS DEEP PURPLE DOUBLE DATURA AND WAITING FOR BRUG BLOOM IN NEXT YEAR. CROSS FINGER!!
Almost anything is possible, Snow, if you go ahead systematically and do hit or miss. Even if exsperienced botanists and horticulturists states, that it is impossible to cross a true arborea to a true aurea, don`t believe it for a minute. It merely state, that they tryed, but without luck for them. Sometimes it depend on their method other times, that they didn`t repeat the experiment often enough or the genes of the particular plants in the experiment. There can be thousand reasons. So never give up to the impossible. Keep up your spirit and go for the limit to crosse it so many times, until there are no limit left.
I am talking of the cross you discuss here ... it could also be to cross arborea to candida plena ... or the enchanting smell of the wild golden aurea in a sang flower, that still look like a sang ...
Even if nothing comes of it it will be fun trying. And who knows just maybe it might work someday. :)
It will :) Never give up trying.
Some years ago I obtained a inoxia x stramonium hybrid by usual pollination and some in Heaven looking with mild eyes of, what I was doing <;0) X I got so surprised by it, that I forgot to ask the Gentlemans name, but I know, that the Minister of my Church will tell me, when I ask
Tonny - I wonder if tetraploid brugs & dats are possible? Has that been done before?
OK, now I want to go plant some daturas so I will have some blooms to cross. Wonder how long it would take the double purple to bloom????????
Tonny, is the growing of embryos (spelling) similar to tissue culture. I have a basic grasp of that and know where to get supplies. Would the resulting seeds from this cross be fertile? In genetic engineering, the added gene carries over into the offspring, would the same apply to this cross.
Poppy, tetraploids are possible. I don`t remember the exact prescription, but you can make tetraploids by soaking Datura/Brugmansia seeds in a solution of water and colchicine.
I can upload some pictures of tetraploids I have in my collection. I use to think, that I had one tatula tetraploid, but this year I was surprised to find, that I actually had two, á quercifolia, because last year these accidentially crossed and this year a seed accidentially came up.
I will make a category for them asap. called tetraploids.
Cala, basicly, but before I can answer it fully, I have to look more into it. Maybe it is faster to ask Brugman.
Be VERY CAREFUL with the colchicine. It's a deadly poison. Make sure to wear protective gear including eye protection. It will cause blindness if it gets in your eyes. Be sure the gloves are chemical resistant, and wash hands before eating or smoking.
It's better to be cautious (chemistry major here)I've talked to several daylily breeders about the colchicine and seems like the early breeders that used it have all died from odd diseases.
Thanks for your warning cala. I didn`t mention protection gear, because I assumed, that all use them for chemicals. Even if GA-3 is considered safe (experiments on mice, hamsters etc.)I use both rubber gloves and prot. glasses there. - I just need a green surface divers suit to equal the frog Kermit :0)
Maybe it is with GA-3 like you mention with Colchisine - at one time it is considered safe to handle, but maybe later on it turns out that many will be harmed by believing it and act accordingly. I am sorry to learn, that breeders died by using it without being warned that there were precautions to be taken during use.
Colchicine is also used to treat ghout. On the topic of protoplast fusion and tetraploids. Crossing Double metel with Double orange Brugmansia via protoplast fusion and then doubling the chromosomes...well one could theorize that the doubling of the chromosomes would make that said hybrid fertile, though it may still not be self fertile or only mildy so. Never give up on the impossible though. I still know Hemerocallis hybridizers who use Colchicine to create tetraploids and sometimes simply making a plant into a tetraploid is enough to allow it to cross to another plant. Of course there are other chemicals one can use to double chromosomes in plants.
www.actahort.org/books/560/560_14.htm
"to restore fertility of sterile interspecific hybrids; and to produce changes in organ size and ...." To me it sounds as if tetraploid conversion might make an aurea x arborea type cross not only possible, but fertile...at least from what I have understand. Hence, it might be worth while if one wanted to work with say flava genes in ones aurea type hybrids one day. Just an idea, but I sure do like the thought of what a tetraploid might do for us as far as phenotype expression. http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Current/Detail/05088.html
Has anyone seen this one in bloom and have the flowers changed at all from the non tetraploid version? It may be worth while experimenting with for those that have an interest in that area. As with everything there are many chemicals used to induce tetraploids and many of them are dangerous...some more so than other so one must research this before one undertakes such an experiment on ones own.
Several of us have the Snowbank brug now, but I don't think any of us have seen it bloom unless it would be Abutilon.
There was an entire chapter on the methodology of how to convert diploid Datura into tetraploids and more by colcisine treatment. If I remember correctly there was both mentioned the measure of CS to be applied to the seeds and a timescedule for the seeds to soak up the solution. I found it in "Blakeslee:The Genus Datura". I hope my sister in laws DH Søren has access to CS, because I have not the necessary papers to access is directly. From Datura we know that the phenotypical expression is a plant, much larger in all parts, more fast and strong growing than natural for the species. Larger flowers. Round, small pods.
Here is (unfortunately only) an example of differences in flower and fruit of D. tatula. The tetraploid specimen is on the leaf. I have two different accession numbers containing tetraploid Datura seeds. Oh, I would love take two aurea cuttings and treat one and use the other as control and measure growth rate, speed, sizes of plant parts.
Tonny,
Have you tried breeding different species of datura tetraploids and comparing the offspring of those same mixed hybrids with mixed hybrids from non-treated seeds? Thats where I think we might get our biggest differences, but again...its all theory until someone takes the time to actually experiment with it. Bigger Brugmansia flowers...not exactly what I would be working towards, but if they were also thicker walled or had more substance than perhaps they would also last longer and this would be a definite plus, but not necessarily enough of a plus to warrant it. For me, I would like to get some aurea x arborea type hybrids going and if they were all infertile...treat cuttings of them with some agent to see if this might indeed make them fertile. Perhaps this would work or perhaps it might just be a waste of time. Perhaps we might get as lucky as to get one cross from this, but this might also be like trying to get a double flower from an arborea as well.
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/rose/rb-routes.htm
This message was edited Sunday, Feb 9th 3:46 AM
I crossed the two tetraploid D. tatula (Datu-30 and Datu-63)last summer and got seeds. I also crossed to one diploid D. tatula (Datu-60), but the pods fell off. The same happened with all Brugmansia x atura and Datura x Brugmansia crosses I attempted. I know you not favour flowersize above other good traits, but it is right about Datu-63 (N-4) that the flower wall aresignificantly thicker *lol* In Brugmansia this could mean that a diploid B. versicolor can be converted and get a flower wall (theoretically) as thick as Ocre and B. aurea.
I would love if you get an aurea x arborea *lol* If you can make one I know my eyes will cross as much as Kyles eyes, when he recieve his first Rothkirch *lol*
Eric, I am packing my computer down the next hours and will probably never go online again. I will very much like to continue our friendship and conversation by postal mail. I know that you are busy, but hope you will find time to write now and then.
My postal address is:
Tonny Surrow-Hansen
Nykøbingvej 112
Radsted
4990 Sakskøbing
Denmark
Tonny, why won't you be online ever again? You are way above my head in your work with brugs, but I do enjoy reading your input and I know others really appreciate your work and discussions with you. I know you will be missed.
Hope all is well for you.