I wrote LBJ to ask if they are certain that the plants I have ordered for spring will be free of virus. The following is a copy of the email they sent me.....I hope it will help and it does make me feel a little easier about getting plants from them.
Dear Shirley,
All of our imported stock came from "reputable" growers
in Germany and was placed under observation for 24
months before we started using them as mother plants.
With the exception of one bad import experience this
past July, the few virus cases that we've observed in
our mother plants, came from domestic stock that we
purchased or traded for, within the USA.
The plants that were affected were immediately destroyed
and the rest of our plants were randomly indexed for
virus testing. Those that showed any signs of virus were
cleaned and propagated by tissue culture. All of our
stock plants are grown in a virus free environment in
Rainbow Heights, CA. where there are now other nursery
crops in the near vicinity.
Due to the indiscriminate import of plants from Europe
and other places, that are coming into this country
without the proper quarantine procedures established by
the USDA Animal & Plant Health Inspection Services, we
have stopped trading plants with domestic growers, as an
additional precaution against viruses.
In addition, most of the problems that we have detected
seems to be related to the Tomato spotted wilt virus
that is transmitted by two different species of thrips.
This dangerous disease is very common in those plants
that are sheltered during the winter in small
greenhouses where the thrip population will thrive under
the warm and humid conditions.
We are on the attack against those who bring plants into
this country without observing the USDA regulations and
those who without understanding the problem, trade
plants that they have sheltered during the winter
without the minimum phytosanitary precautions. Just
remember that most of these plants will carry the virus
without showing any exterior symptoms until they are
under severe stress. These species are very difficult to
trade without a heavy risk of bringing with them deadly
viruses.
However, growers MUST understand that Brugmansia
plants are very susceptible to virus diseases. This
virus lives in many of the plants and vegetables
they grow in their own yards. Without a proper
preventive phytosanitary program, Brugmansia are
going to get infested. Since most of the viruses that
affect this genus are common viruses, with a broad range
of host plants, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, read impossible,
to determine the origin of a virus infestation.
It will be a different story when any Brugmansia grower
isolates a specific Brugmansia virus like the Datura
Potyvirus, that the USDA can track down. Sadly, the
irresponsible grower will pay dearly for bringing a new
disease into this country.
Email from LBJ
I have recently recieved an Aurea Monte Blonche. It has a definite virus as does another white aurea I recieved some time ago. I am keeping them both by the way. I have talked to other hybridizers on the issue within the USA. Seems candida and aurea hybrids are most prone to some of the same diseases that affect tomatoes, tobacco, etc. Growing tomatoes, etc near Brugmansia may infect these Brugmansia. Seems Tomatoes originated from South America as well....Sure hope someone more knowledgeable on virus's comes in to speak about the issue. In the mean time, I am keeping my specimens.
This message was edited Thursday, Dec 6th 7:53 PM
I'll keep my tomatoes away from my Brugs and hope for the best. And I am in on an order from LBJ, btw, have to get angel dream. I can't talk myself into not having it:)
If I had the money right now you can rest assured I would be ordering that one from Lbj as well. That is simply a too die for hybrid. Wishing you all the best Tig.
Hopefully Tonny or someone more familiar with growing the sanguinea, flava, arborea types will step in here as it is my understanding that these viruses are most detrimental to those species. I may be wrong, all I can say is I haven't grown enough of these other species to say much of anything. I can say I have had a few sanguinea's die after 2 years in this hot florida sun due to virus's.
This message was edited Thursday, Dec 6th 10:09 AM
Viruses need an insect vector to spread. The most guilty are thrips, aphids and leafhoppers. If you control the insect populations and isolate the infected ones, you should get some control. Thrips are tiny, I use the white paper method to find them, also sticky cards will work. A systemic insecticide like imidicloprid(Merit, Marathon) will control aphids, leafhoppers and thrips.(don't use it on any food producing plant)It won't harm the beneficials, hummingbirds or moths (except it will kill caterpillars that eat the leaves)
TSWV/INSV manifest themselves as either spots, mosaic or mottle on leaves; black areas on stems; distorted leaves.
Insects feeding can also cause similar symptoms. Many plants can be hosts and show no syptoms. Here is a link that will give some information as well as photos of symptoms: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/garden/02947.html
Thanks for the info Calalily. Its much appreciated.
The third paragraph of her answer sounds like she intends to get the Brug Police after us all! :>)
I like Cala's information. Just keep the bugs away and maybe we will all be lucky enough to not get a virus in our plants. Okay, now where am I going to plant those tomatoes........
Well, all I can say for sure...The Ida of Tonny's is certainly much healthier looking and acting than any of the very few sanguinea and arborea hybrids I have seen in the states. Sorry, I wouldn't grow any other arborea's except Tonny's if I had been growing it for over a year. I just have to be sure it will withstand the Florida sun and set seeds where I am. As for the chlorosis....I can certainly agree that not enough magnesium, sulfate, or more simply put magnesium sulfate aka epsom salts can most certainly be detrimental as can overdoses....Calcium tends to affect growth a bit more though if memory serves me. Love ironite and I probably don't need any ironite as rusty as my water is, but I still use it. That and milorganite....
Course, as with anything too much of anything is a bad thing. I think for the time being I am going to simply stick with Tonny's Ida and a few others I already have. If anything serious attacks them hopefully I will get lucky enough to have enough seeds set that one seed will be just as good as one of the parents. I honestly can't believe that my Roter Vulkan as slow as it is...well its doing very good. Still only 2 ft tall, but if it keeps this up I may have a flower if it doesn't die back this winter come spring.
If you really want to know, there is a home test for INSV/TSWV. It can be purchased from green house supply stores. Micro-Macro in Athens, Ga will test for you but it's expensive. I had a brug with deformed leaves, discovered it had mites, it's fine now. I have had gloxinias with yellow spots, had them tested and it was just aphid bites, no virus.
Remember, this is very important, clean your tools and hands when going from plant to plant taking cuttings and wash those used pots with soap and clorox.
Brugman was right, defeciencies/toxicity can cause all the same symptoms that look like a virus.
This girl from LBJ, what is she getting at, she doesn't want people to trade with each other?
I didn't like her tone either, but I thought it was just me.
Brugman my Rotor Vulcan is looking deader than a door nail. Do you think it will come back? It had a pretty good root system when I got it but the stem as shriveled and it hasn't put out any growth.
Poppysue,
I must confess the Roter Vulkan is an extremely hard one to ship and to root from what I have heard and experienced. My first vulcanicola cutting died altogether and my second, Roter Vulkan died to the ground completly, stayed dormant for 2 months it seems and then came back from the roots it had in the middle of summer. It may be dead, but don't give up on it and don't disturb it as that can cause it to die for sure. Give it a few months then give up on it.
Geez... that's not very encouraging!! I guess I'll just have hug it and squeeze it .....
and call it George:)
Lol, well just hope someone gets some seeds from one here and can start some in the states that root a bit easier.
Between her and the PO I'm wondering what will become of us. My hubby says the irradiating won't hurt plants, but isn't sure of seeds. Where he gets his information, I don't know. I doubt that the "Brug Police" could find us all, so we should be safe there. I'm just going to carry on as usual and not let this stuff worry me. Hope I didn't get everyone all upset too much by posting this letter, just thought I should if it would help.
S.
Poppy sue,my rotor vulacan is dead looking too,I'm just leaving it in the pot,like Eric said and pray for the best.Everything else seems to be doing really well.
crestedchik - poppysue - you are in zone 5, which is supposed to be ideal for vulcanicola (as the sangs, it can rarely survive the summer heat in zone 9 and zone 10 kill it pretty fast). I have never actually owned one, so I like to learn more. The cuttings, which supposedly are hard to get roots from, were they herbaceous or arborescent? The same question goes for the cuttings, that was hard to ship? Does it belong to the greedy species or does it prefer poor soil and low nutrition level? Does it prefer the soil somewhat dry in periods or does it like lots of water? Is it to loose sands or heavy clay? I am purchasing it from germany soon. Vulcanicola problems seems like a challenge to me. Does anyone know, if the cuttings come from the same mother, because I like to experiment with seeds too?
We both got these at Hodniks
I will try find seeds of vulcanicola to grow healthy, fastgrowing vulcs. According to the botanist, that found and described it, it is supposed to grow to more than 2 ft. and live longer, than a stramonium. With the right seed source I think it can be done. I start looking the coming week.
Finally 'heard' something from LBJ about my seeds. Only because the money was taken from credit card. Still nothing by email or anything. At least it looks like I'll get the seeds.
well I ordered them about 3 weeks ago, but you'd think I'd get an email confirming order or something. But .... :) I'm sure she's busy.
edited to add that it wasn't that long ago, just got an email from Vicki. I had looked at the seeds several times, and I'm old. Sorry for the confusion, and my apologies to Vicki.
This message was edited Monday, Dec 10th 3:55 PM
Tonny: Can you find some vulcanicola or roter vulcan seeds for me? Or can I order them from you? I have a cutting but it isn't taking. I plant tons from seed and have great luck. I've also got some seeds you might like. Don't have many left as I've sent out most of them. By the way, they germinate really quickly.
Well, it sure is good to seed everyone in here. The excitement of getting a new batch of seeds or a Brug is enough to put anyone on edge. Roter Vulkan cuttings that I have seen rooted were typically green cuttings by the way.
gone2seeds - you are right about the third paragraph and the brug police.
Here is an extract of a discussion from the Yahoo brug forum and here (in the third paragraph) its written in detail exactly, what will happen to your person, if you get caught by them.
I think its sad, because it also say, that if we continue to exchange without these expensive certificates, we will be regarded as and treated as mean criminals. I don`t like the tone at all. After all we are grown-up, responsible people and don`t like to be talked to as children.
citat:
---------------
I "salute" the APHIS decision to make phytosanitary certificates
mandatory. I believe they are taking the proper security measures to
help prevent unwanted pest and diseases from entering this country.
Colombian Datura Potyvirus (CDP) is held responsible for seriously
damaging Brugmansia stocks in Europe and in many nurseries in South
America. It's pretty obvious to everyone that CDP can be transported
by infected plant material but did you know it can be transported
thru seeds too?
How is the person who trades/purchases seeds or plants from another
country, going to feel when he finds out he is responsible for
bringing in diseases than can wipe out entire brugmansia collections?
How's he going to feel when his fine is in the hundreds of thousands
of dollars and he faces a very long prison sentence? All of this
grief because he was careless and irresponsible and did not want to
follow the proper procedures. He not only hurts himself but he hurts
our country too.
The APHIS decision effects all kinds of plants and seeds.
Is it wrong for us to want to protect our country and our crops?
Most of us may not be able to single handedly fight a terrorist, or
prevent Anthrax scares, but we can certainly fight to protect our
valuable brugmansia collections.
http://www.lebonjardinier.com/article-virus.htm
------------------
citat ended
To all - Whatever you think - if you are pro or con or just concerned, I will be thankful for some comments.
Ok Tonny... I think the phytocerts should be enforced for the large commercial growers & companies that import large quantities of certain plants. I’m sure there are certain countries that have evidence of destructive pest, disease, and virus that can do great damage. I’m sure certain plants are known carriers. As for the little guys like us – I think it will cause more problems than it deters. If I want to place a seed order with Chiltern’s of England, I think I should be able to do so with out a big hassle. If I want to trade tomato seeds with Maria from Russia, I think I should have the right to. If APHIS made it an easy and inexpensive procedure to have plants & seeds inspected, I would gladly go the extra mile to continue with my out of country purchases and trades. In fact, if I could bring my package to an office, have an inspector check it, (for a small fee) – I would be happy to do so. Chances are 99.8% of the items they will inspect won’t even get a second glance. I’m sure they’re looking for specific pest and specific disease… and my guess is that the CD potyvirus isn’t one of them. There are certain pests that have made it through our borders undetected – longhorn pine beetles came through on wooden pallets and crates. A destructive citrus fly has come through on imported fruit. It’s evident that regulations should be made and adhered to – but mandatory phytosanitary certificates is not the route that should be taken.
Viki comes off a little strong - but she's has been directly affected by a virus she brought into her garden with out of country plants. I can understand where she's coming from.
Have you ever heard of the No-White-List? I have been reading of for years in J. L. Hudson, Seedsman`s catalogs. J. L. is - for me at least - the most higly respected seed company I know of. I have been corresponding with the owner since 1995 and have learned a lot from him. I know, that he spend mountains of time figthing for us all, even that we don`t realize, that there is a fight and that he will always be there for us. At first, I read about the list, it was exciting reading, but later I realised what some branches in the US Goverment was up to and how it would affect us all. Unaffordable certifications are only one of the means they have in store for us. If they get their will trades like you mention will be history and so will this forum. I think, that is a too serious thing just to sit and watch by.
I know, that I can`t do it alone, but with your support and the support from anyone, that want a future, where they can trade freely and buy their seeds freely and grow whatever healthy plants they want, you, I and everyone else can get the help we need of our agricultural ministeries all throuth the EU to make the minority loose ends in the US Goverment go right about this again.
Tonny,
Why didn't you post this response from the brug group too?
>From your post CD potyvirus seems to be the virus
>you're most concerned with.
Yes, CD is my concern.
Most growers have known about CD for a long time. We
have not been too worried about it because there was
very little out of country brugmansia trades and sales
going on.
As I stated in a previous message, when I began trading
and purchasing brugmansia, all I cared about was getting
the newest brug. It did not matter how I got them, who I
traded with, or who I bought from. If out of country
trades and sales were as easy and as prevelant back then
as it is now, I can promise you that I would have been
the first one to participate!I would have not been able
to resist being the first one to obtain a beautiful new
brugmansia from another country.
Purchasing and trading brugmansia has been one of the
most pleasurable hobbies I've ever experienced and I
will always love it. Nevertheless, after experiencing
just the common viruses in some of my plants, and after
watching a couple of my 10-12 ft trees (my babys)
literally turn to mush right before my eyes, it has
really hit home that we are ALL playing with fire!
Fortunately, I positively know where the worst of my
common viruses came from because these plants were
tested. These plants were purchased from a grower thru a
popular US auction site. The person I bought from was
warned that the plants purchased were diseased. That
person chose to ignore this warning and is still in
business.
Have you noticed the many US growers who are selling
brugs now? I find more and more on the internet
everyday. Without understanding the problems that can
arise, these growers are importing seeds and plants from
other countries as fast as they can. All they see is
dollar signs.
If they would follow the proper quarrantine precautions
(24 months for plants), I would greatly respect them and
their businesses. Unfortunately, in their haste to make
a buck they do not care and can easily be bringing in
more deadly diseases than what we have experienced in
our US brugs to date.
The quarrantines should apply to out of country trades
too! After all, CDP became known when a well known
grower/hybridizer collected brugmansia cuttings while in
South America. The destruction this deadly virus caused
is very sad. And to think, I could have easily been in
this person's shoes. In my quest and excitement to
obtain that new brug, it could have been me who went to
South America, me who collected the cuttings, me who
brought them home, and me who shared them with my
friends.
No one likes to be told what they can and can't do. We
all hate change and we hate rules.
I believe that most people are honest and their
intentions are good. When you tell them they should be
more careful in their trades and purchases, they accept
it gladly and are thankful for the warnings.
Others get puffed up, and go out of their way to defy
authority of any kind. There's many of this kind out
there! All they care about is money! It is because of
these Puffers that I salute APHIS.
>If it can remain undetected for indefinite periods how
>will the phyto-cert keep it at bay?
It is up to the person who grows the plant or seed to
prove the items are clean to the best of his knowledge.
This involves important "record keeping" that the
reputable grower has faithfully kept updated. Reputable
growers keep these records for many reasons other than
phytocertificates such as for hybridizing purposes.
These growers keep records of where they bought or
traded their plants. They properly quarrantine the new
plants to make sure the plants are reasonably clean. The
legitimate grower's facilities are regularly inspected
for plant diseases and pest by authorities in their
particular country. These growers can provide just about
anything you can think of concerning their product.
If the supplier you wish to buy from can not come up
with these records, then you as the buyer are treading
on dangerous territory. I suggest that before you
purchase, ask the grower if he can provide the
neccessary records that legitimate growers keep. If he
can't supply this info or comes up with any excuse not
to prove a safe purchase ... red flag!
This applies to any kind of plant you import from other
countries .... not Brugmansia only!!!!
>Do they even care about brugs? Brugs are a drop in the
>bucket – aren't they?
No Brugs are not a drop in the bucket. Brugs are quickly
gaining respect and are climbing to the top of the list
as one of the most desired landscaping plants in the
US.
>wipe out ..... potatoe ... tomato crops as well?
FANTASTIC QUESTION GIRL!!!!! This needs to be answered
by only the most knowledgeable on the subject. I
personally am not the most knowledgeable but I do have
contacts with respected experts. I will post a reply to
your question as soon as I can.
>Will a phyto-cert really ensure a plant is virus free?
If the dealer has kept the proper records, you will be
safer than buying underground.
>high cost and red tape to obtain a phyto-cert will only
>promote shady deals & cause more problems than in the
>long run
The US is already growing (properly quarrantined) the
majority of the desired imports. Not only do legitimate
growers already have these, and have had them for
several years now, but they also already have many of
their own hybrid crosses from these imports. These
hybrids are being trialed for growth habits and flower
beauty as we speak.
We have a very exciting Brugmansia future, right here at
home ... within our own country! A future of beautiful
flowers, safe purchases and safe trades.
Thank you for your great letter!
Sincerely,
Vicki Harding
LeBonJardinier.com
welcome to Dave's Vicki
Vicki I appreciate your informative reply to my barrage of questions. I hope that you’ll update us as new information is available. I do wonder about it affecting other members of the solanaceae family. I’m also curious to know if CDP is present in the country now – or was it contained, dealt with and eradicated? Is it being passed around within the US? The feelings about the phytocerts are definitely divided – but all of us love our brugs. I haven’t conducted many plant trades or purchases from other countries but I do trade lots of seeds. I’ve figured if a plant can make it through the mail from another country – you’re darn lucky. Out of curiosity, I’d like to see how the PPQ operates and exactly how they inspect plants. I read on their site that they take great care with the plants they have in quarantine – Do they really?? The 9/11 doesn’t have much to do with plants but it does make one realize how vulnerable the country is. We may have borders but the country is wide open for all forms of invaders – weather it be pest, disease, invasive species, or terrorist. Thanks for insight.
This message was edited Monday, Dec 10th 8:29 PM
yikes, can you email me that brug seller's name....wonder if i bought some from him/her
Vicki...It's been a very long time.....Welcome to Daves.