over and over and over.
I have two long and fairly narrow flower beds in front of my house. Each one is roughly divided into two sections because of shrub placement (2+2). Black clay soil that absolutely EATS repeated applications of compost and peat moss like dragons eat the peasants in nursery rhymes. This has been going on for several years... beds worked over well at least once a year with compost along the an occasional addition of peat moss, soil amended every time new plants go in, typically mulched, usually with shredded pine bark (the beds eat that too, probably for dessert), etc., etc.
Have been amending and mulching soil(s) for many years now so not new to the game but this particular soil situation/location has me about ready to holler 'CALF ROPE!' and let both beds go to weed/seed/or whatever. Good earthworm population and plants seem to do ok so the soil would seem to be healthy but you just cannot keep the soil loaded with organic material as I or the plants would like to have it... At this point, we're down to absolutely ZERO tilth again.
Take everything out, till halfway to China adding truckloads of compost as I go and then start over?
Take the top (pick a depth) of soil out and use something else instead?
Give up and just plant grass there?
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Steve
Tired of amending these two beds...
Black gumbo clay grows everything- with water. The soil tho is so fine that its no wonder your compost is disappearing, and peat may be why it does as it doesnt absorb water. There are plants that do great in it, but grasses might be easier if you wish less headaches
Don't get me wrong Kitt, I love the black clay to grow in but this is the only site location I've ever used that wouldn't eventually turn around with regular and liberal organic matter applications.
Steve
Have you added anything other than compost and peat moss? When we amended our beds, we added lots of manure-based compost, Lava Sand, Texas Green Sand, cotton burr compost and mushroom compost. We also sparingly added some expanded shale to help with drainage. It was a lot of work, but it really made a big difference in both our flower bed and our veggie garden. Now we just add a layer of compost once a year. I use a combination of shredded cedar mulch, which I agree seems to disappear, but it actually breaks down and decomposes. Nature's Guide makes a coarser-chopped cedar mulch that doesn't break down as quickly, and leaves.
I have one bed in the front of my house where the leaves from our big oak tree fall. The first year we put in plants there, I moved all the leaves (about 3 year's worth) out and put out shredded cedar mulch. The first big rain came and washed all my mulch down the driveway!! LOL We put the leaves back and they've been there ever since and don't wash away. They also decompose and that soil is the healthiest soil anywhere in my yard. I also shred leaves and use those in my veggie garden. I also have some in my flower bed. If the leaves blow there, they stay.
Mesquite is where that whiterock table and the blackstuff come together, do you have cedars growing there? Just curious, but a lot of that was hauled in after the areas were built, and you may have acquired a few diff probs. To break up that black stuff they use - uh the sheetrock type stuff I am to tired to name, and it doesnt reallly help the black stuff amend. The less working the soil the better and just build up on it. Like a raised bed with loamy top maybe 6" above the black stuff? I dont know what you want iit to look like, but it sounds too expensive to keep tryin that for the results you get.
This area, like a lot of land in this end of the county, was mostly cotton fields before the builders got hold of it. As they typically do here, they scrape the good topsoil off and probably dispose of it somewhere else. They then lime the soil and sometimes add stabilizers before tilling and re-tilling it into the big goopy clay mess upon which they build their concrete foundations. When all building is completed, they'll typically add 2" to 4" of sand on top and then bring in soil they've scooped up from somewhere else to top dress the whole thing.
In my yard, which I assume is the same as everyone else's in the sub-division, you can dig down 6" to a foot and find the gummiest gray clay (?) that you've ever seen. Almost impossible to break up with a shovel blade and even then, the resulting clods may take weeks to months to break down depending on wet and dry weather cycles. Tis nasty stuff...
We do have quite a few cedars locally but most appear to "old" growth. As to building "up", that's almost impossible due to the foundation slab already being close to ground level. Adding more height would only increase the likelihood of future unseen termite damage since you couldn't see where the little buggers might be building tunnels.
As to the continuing expense, that's not really as worrisome to me as the continued labor on my part amending the soil over and over. And yes, I know that amending is part of any continuing garden process but this seems to be an extreme case and I've been planting and amending for 45+ years now, all in black clay...
I may just try Stephanie's idea and go for broke with amendments and see what happens.
Thanks all,
Steve
Cedars live in alkaline soil, like in Cedar Hill- that bare bones white rock area. I understand about the up on ground level foundations- brother is in Arlington in old GM housing areas.They are having to lower yards with years of accumulated soils/leaves. Yet base is still foundation high. I wish you luck with choice- But I will never put flower beds next to any of my foundations again.
Agree with most of what was said. Peat moss not a good idea. And I don't think pine bark is good. I've had good experience with cedar mulch and shredded hardwood. Also use some amendments but get confused as to which ones do what. Always have my yard guys mow my leaves and those make a really good mulch.
Some of the local garden centers and nurseries sell compost, soil, etc. that is pasteurized. Well that kinda defeats the purpose. Takes all the goodies out of it before it ever hits your beds.
Don't know if you met my guest Susan at the RU. She emailed me a list of 3 places in the general DFW area where you can get all the free mulch that you can load up. Will be glad to cut & paste the list if you or anyone is interested.
Also, have you used any liquid amendments like Garrett Juice or Medina stuff or there's too many of them for me to name? Those might help.
OR if the area has full sun, and you want to do something different, you might try planting something like Buffalo Grass. I recently got a package of seeds called ThunderTurf (great name) that is (by weight) 82% Buffalograss, 17% Blue Grama, and 1% Curly Mesquite. Supposedly, it likes poor soil. After established, no mow, no water, no fertilizer, no diseases or pests. There is at least one other brand with a similar mix. I bought it at Nich-Hardie but I'm sure other places have it. Plus I have a catalog whereby you could order online at www.seedsource.com if you so desire to try this. I'm just starting with it so can't speak as to success.
Steve, I learned all that about soil amending from the Dirt Doctor. I think he lives in your neck of the woods, but don't quote me on that. Check out his website for the amounts to amend and add in.
Stephanie's right. Look up www.dirt doctor.com. Or just google that name or his given name, Howard Garrett. He has a wealth of information.
Steve, if your soil level is too high, you might try removing some of the subsoil and maybe building a berm with it some place else, or dispose of it one clod at a time along with your weekly waste.
Then you can fill those trenches with the good topsoil you have already built, then mulch with leaves or whatever good mulch you have.
Although I buy a few bags of "good" compost every year, typically Black Kow composted manure. most of what I use for amending comes from the Mesquite composting facility which is only about a half mile down the road from me. Residents can get up to a cubic yard of compost per month for free and while it's nice looking stuff, you frequently find bits of trash and plastic in it. Too, since the base material is organic matter from the immediate area, one can never be sure if the compost you pick up today from Pile X came from heavily herbicide treated grass and other tainted organic materials or if it primarily started with "clean", i.e. untreated materials (shredded tree limbs, brush, etc.). As noted, it's a good resource and well composted from all local materials but you also never know how good it will be for your plants because of the unknowns. Residents can also get all the mulch they want for free just by hauling it off. The facility even loads for you if you bring a truck or trailer and truthfully, while they may have a theoretical one cubic yard limit on compost per month, in reality it depends more on how much they have on hand at any given time. Sometimes, they have no compost at all and other times, they may have shifted a pile that'll reach the sky to the staging area.
I got real interested in H. Garrett many years ago and tried his recommendations for about three or four years. In fact, I think I still may have one of his books somewhere. At some point, he started going off on tangents where he was recommending all sorts of odd soil amendments and treatments, most of which were, from a technical standpoint, organically oriented but totally off the wall as far as usefulness. Then he started selling garden amendments under his own label, most of which could be made with ingredients almost any gardener has on hand such as compost, garlic, hot peppers, dish soap, etc.. and which could be made at home for practically pennies. Indeed, at one point, and he may still have it on his e-site, the recipes for making many of the potions he touts. I believe the day I finally quit listening was the program in which he stated he was looking for a 50# drum of cinnamon powder because it cured some weird issue a listener was having and he decided that he was going to dust his whole yard with it.
I have zero problem with organic gardening and try to consistently follow many of the principles of same as well as restricting use of chemical solutions to the absolute minimum necessary to correct a given issue and only then, when that issue gets so bad that I feel I have no other choice. In many cases, I've lost plants because any chemicals I could/would have used had far more potential impact on the environment than I was willing to tolerate.
Garrett started out well but as the years went by, he became more enamored with his own advice, methods, and fan base than adhering to more tried and much studied organic principles.
Sorry, I didn't mean to harangue the guy but after doing my homework using numerous books and available materials at the time (no helpful internet to rely on that many years ago) plus an ongoing interest, I just decided that I could and would do my own experiments on my own plantings using proven organic principles. For the most part, my way works well for me and has for many years without the use of numerous and commercially available "remedies".
Apologies for going OT on the issue...
Steve
This message was edited May 22, 2014 1:12 PM
I think his basic organic gardening principles are good and many of his older books, which can be found in thrift stores and used book stores, have good info. I don't follow him to a "T", but he's got some good info. With everything, you have to be discerning.
Skeeter, the guy here on Dave's named Tapla is a pretty good soil scientist and you can find him on the soil and composting forum. He talks about how quickly the organic components of a soil mix break down, like in a square foot garden where you fill them up and next year, 2/3 is gone, used up. He advocates using a certain mix that includes some harder to breakdown components like pine bark fines and rock dust to the mix he recommends. I think there is a sticky at the top of the forum with his recommendations. I understood from him that what you experience in your bed is more .the rule than the exception and constantly adding the humus type material is to be expected. It gets broken down and used up quickly. What I got from the discussion was that you need a substrate with which to mix the nutritious stuff that will hold up and still make the humus available to the plants. Read it and see what your own take is. He has different mixes for containers, raised beds, etc and generally he likes fast draining mixes because they allow a lot of oxygen to the plant roots.
I know people either love or hate Howard Garrett. I'm one who goes back and forth. But I just want to clarify a few things. Yes, he does tout products sold as Garrett this or Garrett that. But he also has the recipes for them on his website. As for his books, he is quick to state that his older books include many uninformed or mistaken or call them what you will recommendations about certain chemicals and (I think) recommended plants. Aside from that, the general practices remain pretty much the same. But for his more current recommendations you really have to check his website.
Having said all that, I read a very confusing answer to a question in his column this week in the Dallas Morning News.
Thanks for the info Steady, I'll check Tapla out.
Steve
Skeeter, drench your problem soil with alfalfa tea, and do it fairly often. Add some NPK source to your brew occasionally, and you will be providing your plants with all the nutrition they will need. Adding compost, mulch and such is just too much trouble. LMK if you need the recipe and instructions. ~ pen
In response to the first post...soil is 50% or greater inorganic material. There is no such thing as organic material permanence when building garden beds, only year to year improvement. You've got to continually feed that baby. The heavy clay soil in my garden is light and fluffy after winter layering and amending in spring but by fall planting time its like lead. When I first started gardening the reverse happened. I dumped loads of organic matter into a small garden over many years and mulched high. The result was a soggy, rotten mess with lots of disease issues.
Thank the Lord that you have that black, rich soil, The sand that comprises the soil where I live in Freestone county digs easy, drains well, but is nearly sterile of nutrients and truly does dissolve amendments very rapidly the ph is so low. I haul in black soil from the nearby blackland paririe for holes I dig to grow some of the species that like that more alkaline soil.