Coming from
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1345697/#new
where we were discussing birthing, in-between all things yard care…
and comparing status reports after this weeks arctic blast.
All are invited to comment and read!
Notice pic - must be the balanced diet I fed them….
LOL.
"Mooommmm, he got 2 more peas than I got!!!" "OK, here ya go, 2 more peas for you!" < =D
Now THAT's a balanced diet! =)
The deal with corn gluten or preen which ever you prefer. Is that they keep weed seeds from germinating. They won't do anything for already growing weeds or weeds that spread by root. I will say that I find both products work extremely well for their intended purpose. I got half of Mom's new bed covered with corn gluten and didn't get back for two weeks to do the other half. Huge difference.
SOOOO?????
WHAT is in Corn Gluten that suppresses weed germination????
This inquiring mind wants to know. G.
some type of naturally occurring compound existed in the protein fraction of corn gluten meal hat had an inhibitory effect on the root formation of germinating seeds. Corn gluten meal contains 10 percent nitrogen by weight and makes an excellent fertilizer for plants with a well-established root system.
http://www.hort.iastate.edu/research/gluten/grndmain
Yes, I neglected to add that corn gluten meal functions as a fertilizer too, and the worms probably like it as well. Just like with non-organic weed control products, it inhibits the germination of grass seed as well as weed seeds, so timing is important.
Sally, have you ever used pine bark nuggets in your beds? They're great at inhibiting weed seed germination. The down sides are that desirable seeds don't germinate as well, either, and also that they give slugs a hiding place. Fortunately, I learned that iron phosphate kills slugs, and so I buy large bags of iron phosphate or triple phosphate, whichever I can find. It fertilizes plants and kills slugs, and one bag lasts much longer than the stuff sold as slug granules (active ingredient of which is iron phosphate).
This message was edited Jan 22, 2014 10:32 PM
Great tip on iron phosphate Muddy, have to remember that, I have a lot of little slugs. I think I should use bark nuggets, I think my soil can get very dense and packed.
Muddy, that iron phosphate, do you think that would be good for Rhododendrons?
Wow, Muddy -- I had never thought of just getting iron phosphate -- we use Sluggo but it is expensive. So I started googling around regarding the safety of iron phosphate (and Sluggo), and the reviews are more mixed than I had expected: http://blogs.extension.org/gardenprofessors/2012/05/10/upon-further-reviewiron-phosphate-for-slugs-and-snails/
Is Iron Phosphate an acidifier? Or am I thinking of another "Phosphate???
What would this do to annuals, bulbs, and such in a bed if I sprinkled
it near, or on, them? Any harm?
Would Diotomaceous Earth be better? HD has ir in a good sized bag--under $10.
This message was edited Jan 23, 2014 3:07 PM
Hmm. I looked at my bag of Espoma Triple Phosphate, but there wasn't a complete ingredient list. It just says "available phosphate 45%". I did some googling in an effort to find out whether it has the "EDTA" that is supposed to be bad for worms and pets, but I couldn't find out.
I think it might not be in Espoma's Iron Phosphate or Triple Phosphate products, however, in part because it might not be necessary. According to a link within Happy's link, EDTA is added to Sluggo in order to "make the iron more toxic to molluscs by solubilizing it". It might not be necessary to add EDTA to more concentrated phosphate products that are 1) not marketed to kill slugs and 2) much more toxic to slugs anyway (with 45% phosphate vs. the 1% in Sluggo and Espoma's "Earth Tone" slug control product).
I'm hoping that by spreading it just around the slugs' favorites, I'm doing minimal harm to worms! It seems like there's never a perfect solution. I use beer traps, too, and I know the phosphates are still working when there are no slugs in the beer containers. I like the fact that, in addition to slugs, Japanese beetles, June bugs/May beetles and flea beetles drown themselves in beer, but I also see bees and the occasional earthworm : (
This message was edited Jan 23, 2014 7:24 PM
Gita, Triple Phosphate (sold by Bonide as well as Espoma) is marketed for use on flowers, vegetables, trees and shrubs and is supposed to produce "bigger faster blooms".
The soil acidifier you're thinking about is sulfur. I love that stuff! I accidentally dumped way too much on my hydrangeas one year and got beautiful deep purple flowers.
I've tried diotomaceous earth, and egg shells, and coffee grounds. Of those three, I think coffee grounds were the most effective, but not as good as the phosphate.
Muddy, triple phosphate is different from iron phosphate.
Iron phosphate is the one that kills slugs. The toxicity of iron phosphate depends on the amount of available iron, so regular phosphate shouldn't have any effect on slugs or earthworms. EDTA is needed to chelate iron-containing materials, so it probably wouldn't be included in regular phosphate fertilizers.
This message was edited Jan 23, 2014 9:00 PM
Doesn't triple phosphate have iron phosphate in it? I usually look for iron phosphate, but sometimes it's not on the shelves.
Iron phosphate is FePO4, but triple phosphate doesn't have any Fe.
I think a lot of commercial superphosphates have calcium in them instead.
Thanks! I never would have guessed that. I'll make sure I find iron phosphate from now on. It's hard to find sometimes.
Do you think EDTA would be put in an iron phosphate being sold as a fertilizer rather than as a slug killer?
Here's a FLASH for you all!!!!
Talking about all kinds of Phosphorus....Dig this!
Just got home from out pre-season Garden Meeting.
Guess what they told us--and this is a new law passed in MD
From now on------------
NO fertilizers will be allowed to be manufactured any more that have any phosphorus in it !!!!
Muddy, iron phosphate isn't a very good source of phosphate, so it doesn't seem likely that it'd be sold as a fertilizer. And it'd be really expensive!
Gita, here's a link to the new fertilizer law in MD: http://mda.maryland.gov/Pages/fertilizer.aspx
"Prohibits lawn fertilizer products from containing phosphorus with certain exceptions for specially labeled starter fertilizer and organic fertilizer products."
For homeowners:
"Phosphorus may only be applied to lawns if soil tests indicate it is needed or when the homeowner is establishing, patching or renovating a lawn."
It looks like it's not a complete ban, since organic fertilizers are allowed.
Re coffee grounds: I once used fresh coffee grounds straight on some plants in hopes of deterring slugs and improving soil fertility -- and I killed the plants I was trying to protect. So I'd recommend caution. I don't know if I put on too much or what, but the plants died fast.
ssg: Thanks for the link about the new Maryland law. I hadn't heard of it before. Apparently it was adopted in 2011, but not effective until last October. It's terrific that Maryland is being a bit proactive to protect the Bay. Of course, the rules for homeowners are essentially unenforceable - the new law is probably an issue mainly for lawn care companies (and of course, manufacturers).
Since we've been talking about Milorganite, I checked its website. The Milorganite site says: "While Phosphorus (P) in run-off contributes to algae growth in lakes and streams, Milorganite has been exempt from numerous state P bans because it is considerably less likely to leach than chemical or synthetic fertilizers." I didn't see that exception in what ssg linked to, but that is a very top line summary. If I recall, we tested our soil a long time ago and the Phosphorus levels were fine so I've never made a point of adding any, though it does come bundled in most fertilizers. Ssg, isn't phosphorus something that, once you have enough in your soil, doesn't need to be replenished? I may be remembering wrong.... Anyway, I also read: "In response to the Fertilizer Use Act of 2011, maintenance turf fertilizer sold in Maryland no longer contains phosphorus." http://mda.maryland.gov/SiteAssets/Pages/fertilizer/MDAProLawnCareManual6.24.13.pdf Does that mean all non-complying fertilizer sales (i.e., most fertilizers) will be banned? Not necessarily a bad thing.
The law also has a strict limit on nitrogen. Your link says that we can't use more that a total of 0.9 pounds of nitrogen (0.7 pounds of soluble nitrogen) per 1000 square feet per application. Again using Milorganite as an example, the recommended application rate is 36 lbs. per 2,500 sq. ft., so about 15 lbs for 1000 sq. ft. Milorganite is 5% Nitrogen (of which 1.5% is water soluble). 5% of 15 pounds is 0.75 pounds, so Milorganite is ok (assuming you can get around the Phosphorus issue). But I understood Milorganite to be a very low level fertilizer -- I bet most fertilizers will not pass muster. Though lawn care companies can get around it by making multiple applications of Nitrogen.
I must be sleepy, but I didn't see the exception for organic fertilizers.
We used PlantTone on our awful front hill last spring, which is an organic fertilizer. I had intended to use it again this spring, but I may need to rethink that. It has 3% Phosphorus. And the rate is 40 pounds for 1000 square feet for established gardens; with 5% Nitrogen (or 2 pounds for 1000 square feet), so it is more than double the permissible limits (unless it squeaks by because it is organic).
The condition of the bay is so sad, I desperately hope it improves.
When I got my degree decades ago (eek!) nitrogen was regarded as the limiting factor because it was known to be very soluble and leach from soil. Now they've seen that phosphorus got into the system too . I have read that phosphorous stays put i.e. is not moving from the soil. But decades of chicken manure on farm fields may have put a huge load into this soils. This is just a quick and dirty brief of what I think I have picked up in the decision to ban phosphorous. Remember back in the 70s they took phosphates out of detergent.
Tapla has said that those bloom boost fertilizers with high phosphorous will cause a bloom flush, only at the cost that then the plant will have to rest anyway to make all new buds.
Happy, yes, any of the "tones" by Espoma will be able to circumnavigate the new law (or actually, they fit right into it) because they are organic fertilizers. Same goes for Milorganite, and any of the organics.
At work, we've known about the consideration for this new law for a few years now, so for the past 3 years or so, we started carrying 0-P lawn fertilizers .. other than organics and starters. Scott's has been carrying some for a couple years now (including their Turf Builder line), several of the Greenview products are phosphorus-free, as are Green Thumb by Anderson's, and Jonathan Green & Sons. (to name just a few)
While I know it's impossible to monitor what homeowners are doing (not gonna hire a new force of lawn-fertilizer police now are they? HA!), the law does indeed control our adherence by not selling "the bad stuff" to begin with. "Don't sell them what they should not use, and they will not use what they should not". However, monitoring what manufacturers are marketing -- That is do-able!
Where I live is right at the intersection of 3 different water sheds, so I've been very careful for a while now what I use, on my lawn and in my beds, and I try to keep up on the local environmental (emphasis on "mental") news. =)
Happy, I don't know about you but I think the Espoma products, while great, seem on the ridiculous side in regards to application size. Tree tone requires 3lbs per inch for trees up to 3". I just think that's a ridiculous sum of money to be spending on a single tree. I have been using the Jobe's tree spikes but have read mixed info on them. I think this year I will drill holes in the soil around our trees and feed them with Tree tone but in a far smaller quantity than they suggest.
Sequoia: You make a great point about quantity of fertilizers used. Even for products that are inherently good, the manufacturer may exaggerate the quantity needed. All this is reminding me that that when the soil thaws I need to do some soil tests - I haven't done any in ages.
We haven't been feeding our trees -- we just feed the perennial beds and, infrequently, our lawn of weeds. When we get around to feeding the plants, we usually use the rate on the bag -- but we don't do close to as many applications as the manufacturer calls for, in part because we think they overstate it, and in large part because we forget or don't get around to it. We have a huge compost pile which we use for the back of our yard. Last year we bought a truckload of compost from the county for the front of our yard which we used as top dressing on the awful front hill project (our yard is long and narrow and very steep, so dragging compost from the back where the compost pile is, to the front, is a major and unpleasant project).
We did just plant a single cherry tree. I wonder if we should be fertilizing it?
Speedie: I didn't see the exception in the link ssg gave us for organic fertilizers, though I didn't read it closely. In the link I gave above, which is to a PDF put out by UMD, it says "Beginning October 1, 2013, each application [of organic turf fertilizer] may not exceed 0.25 pound of phosphate per 1,000 square feet with an annual maximum of 0.5 pound of phosphate per 1,000 square feet." Does that mean it does not apply to flower bed fertilizers?
Bottom line: We'll try to respect the new rules and be really limited in what we use.... Just not entirely sure what that means we should be doing in the upcoming season.
I believe this law is specifically directed to lawn fertilizers, synthetic and organic alike; from there, it is up to us to be vigilant about N and P uses in our garden beds.
I apologize that I had not seen your link before to the above-mentioned site. (how on EARTH did I miss it!?) I had always just used a combination of Milorganite and compost over my lawn (not necessarily applied together)... now I think I'll reduce my Milorganite usage to just twice per year. I think it's been 3 years since I've done a soil test, too, so it's about time I did that as well.
My suggestion for the upcoming season: Start with a soil test and take it from there. That's what I plan to do. =)
I have NEVER EVER done a soil test.....
Do you buy one of those "soil tester" kits--or do you mail off your samples
thee a University Extension service? They do it FREE!
G.
I think -- based on memory, so I may be way off -- that the little soil testing kits you can buy locally are limited in scope and accuracy. Sadly, while maybe the extension services used to do soil tests for free, but they don't any more -- at least, Maryland doesn't. http://extension.umd.edu/hgic/soils/soil-testing gives a link to regional soil testing labs, but they all seem to charge. Still, they don't charge too much and it makes sense to have some notion of what you are dealing with. But I've been saying this for years and haven't done the test in eons....
I've never done a soil test...I don't think I would pay for one though. Ours are for pay too and it's pretty expensive IMO
http://agsci.psu.edu/aasl/soil-testing/soil-fertility-testing
Happy, my link also talks about exceptions for organic fertilizers.
And what you said about phosphorous is true, it binds very well to our acidic clay and stays in the soil for a long time.
I didn't use any fertilizer last year except for Biotone at planting time. I read somewhere that fertilized plants invite aphids, so I decided to have less growth and less aphids!
Sequoiadendron4: I was going to use the Massachusetts lab, which charges $10 for the basic test. I don't think I need any of the add-on tests, which trigger an additional charge. https://soiltest.umass.edu/fact-sheets/sampling-instructions-routine-soil-analysis But again, I've been planning to do this for years and never seem to get around to it, and I'll probably sing that song again this year!
ssg: I had the feeling that was the case (that your link spelled out the exception for organics) - I just didn't see it.
A lot of sources say that fertilizers aren't ever needed (except for containers), especially if you top dress with compost. And we try not to remove every single leaf that falls in the fall so that some can break down and improve the soil. Maybe I'll get inspired and stop fertilizing altogether, and just rely on topdressing. Though there are some plants like peonies that really need extra fertilizer, no?
Certainly, obviously, plants can live, propagate, and bloom without humans adding fertilizer. The question is, whether they will perform to our human expectations without our "help"
I rarely fertilize.
Specifying lawn' fertilizer may have something to do with the size bag a product is normally sold in, or the fact that there are "lawn care companies" that the law can point to in identifying a controllable source. And given the average homeowner and his yard, will reduce P over most suburban area.
Hey, I heard a chirpy commercial on the radio promoting our 'new permeable pollution' tax, or some such possible new euphemism for the rain tax- or maybe what rain tax was originally called.
Huh? What is the rain tax?
The only thing I recall from the time we did a soil test years and years ago is that we were low in nitrogen. But I think now the basic soil tests don't include a test for nitrogen (though you can do that as an add-on) since it is so variable. I expected (with no scientific basis) that my awful front hill would be low on nitrogen since it erodes so badly.
Hey! Change the name...and no one will know it is rhe same rain tax...
I always though that was a stupid name anyway...
Permeable Polution tax--I bet half the people don't even know what
"Permiable" means..................
I know---I KNOW!! It is someone's hair that you can give a Permanent to...
.Smart! I sure am! :o) G. (edited--I spelled "change" as Chabee" My fingers....)
This message was edited Jan 24, 2014 6:16 PM
Ah -- the rain tax is a Maryland "annual fee on impervious surfaces such as roofs, driveways, sidewalks, garages, and any other surface that could create drainage problems and water contamination situated on property owned by an individual or a business." My neighbors have re-done their back yard causing all their storm water runoff to run off onto my yard causing massive erosion. Think I could assess them directly?
haha, that would be nice!
Happy, in Fairfax County it is illegal for homeowners to redirect water from any source (rain, swimming pools, etc) onto someone else's property. I bet it's illegal in Maryland as well.
happy---
Did you think I did not know what "permeable" is? Of course I did....
I was just being funny......"perm-eable"............."perm-anent" (perm)......get it?
Thanks for your inclusive explanation, though. G.
[quote="ssgardener"]Muddy, iron phosphate isn't a very good source of phosphate, so it doesn't seem likely that it'd be sold as a fertilizer. And it'd be really expensive!
I don't remember what it cost, and I can't find it online, but I swear I've found bags of iron phosphate in stores. If it's not sold anymore, maybe I'll go to Plan B: shelving out $ for copper tape which will repel slugs for years (they won't crawl over it because it gives them an electrical shock). I have wrapped it around pots (to protect marigolds, for example) and have found it lasts for years, which is a good thing because it is not cheap when bought from garden centers. I did a little googling, though, and found one site (ULINE) that sells 18 yards for $37 for some other purpose. It still is a bit expensive, but I'm thinking that I can put it on thin pieces of wood, surround my beds with it, and forget about slugs for years to come.
Gita, Happy's explanation is just the rain/permeable surface tax quoted directly. The law literally says that it's an "annual fee on impervious surfaces such as roofs, driveways, sidewalks, garages, and any other surface that could create drainage problems and water contamination situated on property owned by an individual or a business."
I know...I had to pay the extra $39 added to my property tax last year.
I think the COUNTY should have to pay their own tax--as all the salt that is on the
roads and parking lots right now is headed for The Bay via storm drains.
Why are they exempt??? Is it because it is THEIR tax?
G.
