Worms!

howdy from east texas! :)
i am primarily a daylily nut. i grow more that 1,000 different dls in raised beds. most of my beds were filled with landscaping mix and have been amended over the last few years with fine pine bark mulch, cotton seed meal, alfalfa and rabbit poo. at this point the soil is almost like potting mix in consistancy. i can easily dig with my hands, which is really nice! however, i pretty much never find any worms!

so, my question is, am i killing my worms with the artificial fertilizers or insecticide that i use? or do i need to "seed" the beds with worms? i would be happy to purchase worms, if i am not just going to kill them by something else that i am doing. oh, and not applying chemicals isnt really an option for me. the thrips can pretty much destroy the color of the bloom or cause bud drop. i have had it happen and it can ruin your bloom season. and rust is endemic to this area and is horribly ugly and stresses the plants. i think it actually contributes to plant death due to the increased stress. especially with our horrible summers we have been having.

any advice would be greatly appreciated! thanks!

tracie

Aggiegirl,
I'll give it a shot, although, everything I know about worms comes from the veggie gardening I do.

First, and foremost, I LOVE WORMS!

A garden full of worms is a sure indicator that your soil is teeming with lots and lots of nice, microorganisms, which is what worms feed on. Contrary to popular believe, worms do NOT eat the compost. Worms eat the microorganisms that are breaking down your compost.

So, with that bit of knowledge (and this is where I'm just offering a guess), the more organic breakdown you have going on in your soil, the more microorganisms you have breaking it down, the more worms you have at the smorgasbord! P.S. Worms LOVE, LOVE, LOVE coffee grinds -- rather, they love whatever it is that breaks down the coffee grinds. You start pitching some spent coffee grinds around, and the worms will build condos...

Get the picture?

Now, I haven't got a clue about what your insecticides may be doing to your microorganisms. I don't use anything except MG Plant food for Veggies fertilizer or a balanced TR granular like 13-13-13. In the way of insecticides, I sometimes have to use Bt for the cabbage loopers, or Garden Dust. I've not used any really big guns out there like Seven Dust, not because I'm an organic grower or anything (which I'm not), but because I only believe in using what I have to, when I have to, and only as much as I need to get the situation under control.

Last growing season, I discovered an army of allies - Assassin Bugs that live on the milkweed I didn't even know was growing around the entire perimeter of my yard! They ate every bug in site, and I had bug free tomatoes and peppers.

So. That's about all I know. Hope it gives you some insight.

Linda

thanks for the info! i am wondering since these beds were "artificially" installed if i need to buy some worms to get them started in each bed? i hate to spray insecticides. however, i learned the hard way a couple of bloom seasons ago what happened when i didnt. i had a lot of ladybugs, so of course i didnt want to spray. i used a systemic insecticide. but apparently, it wore off pretty quickly. next thing i knew, there were tons of tiny bugs on each daylily bloom. they even were biting me! they were so tiny, you could barely see them. anyway, come to find out i was overrun with thrips! so, i had to start spraying again. :(

tracie

aggiegrl
yes ... you are messing up the "soil biology" and killing your worms with synthetic fertilizers ...
Just live the bad bugs there and the good bugs will arrive ...

Are you near Dallas?
Because I am using a lot of the products from TX worm ranch. You shall try it !!

i am about 3.5 hrs from south of dallas, in Lufkin. aaarg! i wish i could not spray! as i said, i have tried and the thrips just took over! so, would i be wasting my money to try to buy some worms?

tracie

Tracie,
Even if you introduce worms to your beds, they'll need a food source, the microoganisms, from some type of organic breakdown. I think you probably might want to explore adding some compost or other organic material, so the worms can eat.

If you don't wanna go that big with a load of compost, try "spot" composting. Just collect your veggie peels, paper towels, old cardboard, shredder paper, and anything that was once ALIVE (except dairy, oil, and meats...). Dig a hole in your bed and chuck it in. Cover it over. The worms will come!

You can get a 5-gallon bucket with a tight lid and keep it out of site for your collection. The finer the material is broken down when you put it into the garden, the better, so chop up your old lettuce, and onions, and bread, etc., into small pieces before you put them into the bucket. Some people even use an old blender to puree it into a slurry (this is actually the fastest way). Then, just pour it into a hole or a trench.

If you just go with the chunky stuff, be sure to dig your hole deep enough (about 10"-12") so that when you cover it over, no smells are emitted. No smells, no rodents/possums, etc. trying to dig it up for their own dinner!

Hugs!

wow! great information! i put a ton of rabbit poo on my dls last spring and i still didnt see any worms. if i remember correctly, when i used to have rabbits of my own, when i cleaned under the cages there were always tons of worms.

tracie

Tracie,
Did you EVER have worms? Because if you never HAD worms, you won't have any now, and not necessarily from using the insecticides. I don't think you killed them all if you're using the sprays in moderation. Could be you never had a population to begin with, or, if you did, they simply moved away to find a food source. They will migrate when they're hungry!

I suggest you begin "feeding" your soil, so the worms will have a food source. Try the spot composting for awhile, setting some holes all around to get the microorganisms going. And, if they don't affect your Daylilies, sprinkle some used coffee grinds around and water them in. That'll sound the dinner bell, for sure!

Then, go find a neighbor with some worms, and bum a shovelful from them. Or, visit your local bait and tackle shop. You don't necessarily need redworms. Plain old earthworms will aerate and churn up your soil, too. They're just slower than the redworms.

Linda


This message was edited Feb 2, 2012 9:48 AM

aggiegrl
I think TX Worm Ranch sells worms:
http://www.txwormranch.com/About_us.html

Contact her
She also can be a great consultant to help ya

Tracie, if you apply beneficial nematodes to your soil, they will take care of the thrips as well as lots of other soil borne pests such as snails, grubs, fleas, ants, ticks, roaches, and a whole host of other pests. They will not bother your daylilies either. However, if you spray chemicals on your soil, the nematodes will die.

nematodes will kill thrips? i had no idea. you guys are great for providing all this information! :)

no, i dont think i ever had worms. each of these was set up and filled with a commercial landscaping mix. i dont drink coffee. i wonder if i could get starbucks to save some grounds for me?

tracie

Starbucks can be your garden ally -- I know this -- make friends with your local manager...

Coffee grinds for the soil, & milk jugs for winter sowing your spring plants!

Yes, Tracie. When we first started gardening, we applied nematodes 4X, early spring, late spring, early fall, late fall. Now we just do it annually. You have to do it either VERY early in the morning or late in the evening so they will have time to burrow down into the ground before the sun heats up.

If you live in the Dallas area I truly suggest attending the "SOIL BIOLOGY" class thought by Randy Johnson at the Texas Discovery gardening.
http://www.texasdiscoverygardens.org/

Keep checking the calendar. I have just attended his class in January and it explain a lot of mistery of the soil.

Earthworms derive their nutrition from many forms of organic matter in soil, things like decaying roots and leaves, and living organisms such as nematodes, protozoans, rotifers, bacteria, fungi. They will also feed on the decomposing remains of other animals.
So, add organic material.
I also think turning over the soil frequently lowers your worm count. I never thought about buying worms but I know you can. My yard here in TX didn't have any worms I could find a few years ago but after a lot of amending, I have them now.
C

Yeah. What newton said! Many kinds of organic material!

Synthetic fertilizers WILL not kill worms. They cant tell if the N or what ever is man made or not as the Atom is exactly the same. Lack of Organic Material will make it impossible for worms to survive. So use whatever fertilizer or insecicide you need to but you need to provide the amendments of Organic Material to make the soil liveable for the worms. If you dont believe me ask Tapla on the Soil and Compost forum. There is a lot of mis info about synthetics killing soil life, which simply isnt true. Its when you stop taking care of the soil and only use fertilizers that you have that problem.

i do use a lot of amendments, in addition to the sythetic fertilizer. i put on tons of rabbit poo and alfalfa last spring. i think i am going to try to purchase some worms locally and put them in some of the beds and see what happens. thanks for all the advice!

tracie

Thats a good idea its not like worms can just fly in.Not like thrips

Now I just have to add my 2cents worth #1 I have a lot of worms #2 I use some insecticides i spray it on the plants ,the worms are underground so are unafected...#3 worms seem to love decaying leaves more than anything else in my yard ..Can't say about anyone else's yard If you have moles are for that matter Armadillos they both eat worms ..That is what I know for sure one other thing I know there is a ton of misinformation about this subject I think if it were me I would contact that worm place that drthr mentioned if you want good info talk to someone that makes a living doing that (raising worms )

http://eap.mcgill.ca/MagRack/SF/FAll%2092%20M.htm Heres a link to an interesting and informative article about worms and fertilizer. Yes, they love decaying leaves and they are decompossers in the food chain. I noticed my worm population skyrocketed the more Organic Material I added. I agree Grits a lot of misinformation. If you only use fertilizer (man-made or Synthetic) and no OM worms cant live. But I dont think they just show up either, so I guess you have to import them.

Ive never heard about insecticides killing Nematodes they didnt do a dang thing to the root knot nematodes. I would assume that the beneficial nematodes would stave to death if you killed their food source, but I dont know enough about it to say anything more about it.

Stephanie-I realize that nematodes are good for soil borne pests, but what about pests that fly in? Ie Thrips. I dont know their life cycle but they carry the Spotted Wilt Virus so I cant have them around.

There is alot of information about this on the Soil and Compost forum. Some of those individuals really know their stuff, and more then happy to help.

As I recall last year we had a horrible problem with a white fly and it was wide spread I never got it solved just kinda kept it in check. so sometimes you win other times just survive ,I have had pretty good luck with dishsoap on the thrips and it is sure death to aphids but seems as tho we get rid of one pest and 2 more take its place..P.S. the white flies were still active until the first hard freeze 19 *