New partnership National Wildlife Federation and Scott

New partnership between the National Wildlife Federation (NWF) and garden products manufacturer Scott's Miracle-Grow

Please read this article ... I just cannot believe this is happening:
http://grumpygardener.southernliving.com/

drthor, I've read the article. I think I'm confused....are you upset? Surprised?

I don't use many Scott's products. But one I do use and like is Scott's Miracle-Grow ORGANIC potting soil. I overwinter rose bands in it. They do very well with it and my dogs don't pay any attention to it. I don't use many lawn products as no one can see my lawn. I live in the middle of a hay pasture, woods on one side. One of my sons' is allergic to poison ivy. We do use Round-Up on poison ivy. An allergic reaction to poison ivy is only a little less graphic than a peanut allergy. Our allergic son is an adult now. But he lives right down the road and loves to play with our dogs. We can't have our dogs running through poison ivy and passing on the oils. I agree with the grumpy gardener, if used carefully and correctly as a last resort for specific problems then that's fine with me. That doesn't mean I am a fan of Monsanto. I think they make a lot of money and they should use it more wisely.

I think if NWF influences Scott's to produce more organic products that work as well as their organic potting soil, then very cool! And NWF can use the money.

PS. Thanks for posting the link to the grumpy gardener! I am also a grumpy gardener and I've enjoyed reading his posts.

There used to be an old saying: "Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas!" Seems appropriate here...

Nuts, whats good for the goose is good for the gander, is more appropriate. You cannot sit in town -in a city- and pass judgements on tiny plots of earth til you get into the forest and have to deal with Goliath, I like both methods, will continue to use all methods available to me, I like lawns, i like hayfields, i like forests, i love my garden, and no matter what else, I really believe the earth can cause far more damage to itself than all us little gods controlling our share of the cemetary. If there wasnt a need - a DEMAND- for what they serve us, it wouldn't be found as a commercial resource. I like portions of many things, but I have a belief in my right to choose how much and of what I wish to utilize. AND my freedom to do so. Go pooh pooh on someone else's self righteousness.

I just know if I read this thread again I will find something about vegetables...No? Nothing...

Oh, well. Look, I'm about the last person to act as an apologist for the agricultural chemical industry. One of my options out of school was to go to work for them. I didn't, even though I could have made a LOT more money than I did. 'Nuff said? But getting all upset about some words that are taken out of context by people who would faint dead away if you told them someone was putting sodium chloride on their food...well...

I've used glyphosate. There it is. Yes, you are not supposed to use it near open water. Why? Will it kill all the wildlife, grow 5-legged frogs, or enter the food chain and render every fish unsafe? Well, hardly.

The reason you are NOT supposed to use Roundup near open water is, very simply, that it is water soluble and may affect nearby aquatic vegetation. Sort of like the instructions not to spray it when it's windy, only substitute "water" for "wind". You may indeed get unintended consequences, but more of the order of spraying too near your favorite azaleas.

It's really just common sense. The only reason the warning is there is because some people might not think it through.

-Rich


This message was edited Feb 6, 2012 12:43 AM

I agree about the atrazine, by the way. Nasty stuff. Persists too long for my comfort. I'm on well water and glad most of my neighbors are more interested in livestock and live oaks than acres of barren sameness.

I don't know why we have this fascination with lawns to begin with. I'm in the process of destroying mine bit-by-bit, covering it with vegetable and herb gardens and fruit trees and bushes and mulch. But it was here when I bought the place, and I'm just one man (with limited monetary resources) so it's going to take a while. Until then, I'll tolerate a few weeds in the grass.

-Rich

Rich, you're not familiar with the findings on Roundup and frogs? This is old news, but of real concern.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/22159.php

rjogden, from the road, the weeds in my "front yard" look like green grass =D. And I've always maintained that some of my weeds are in fact perenials! I actually really like wild morning glory out in the pasture. But not in my rose beds. One can pull that fairly easily though. There are some wicked weeds out here in the boonies. I can live with most of them. But there are a choise few that just have to go. They can live over in my goat pasture as the goats will eat and thrive on many weeds. Like poison ivy.

I have one of those "flame thrower thingies" for most of the weeds in the yard or garden, but we have found that does not work on poison ivy and we could not (and did not want to) use it last year due to the drought bans in our county. Drought does not hinder poison ivy

By the way, hydrogenoxide is my favorite chemical =).

Not to knock the study, but getting frog DNA to mutate is like shooting fish in a barrel. I think you could get some strange effects by looking at them crosseyed. We are talking about a class of animals that have persisted since before reptiles, for heavens sake! They are designed to mutate, and breed like heck!

-Rich



This message was edited Feb 6, 2012 11:27 PM

Wouldn't be without it! ;o)

-Rich

-Rich

We're not talking just mutations here, Rich; Roundup is lethal to frogs. And even if you don't care about frogs, they're living in the water systems that we depend upon for drinking and for irrigation. We are all part of the same web of life and will eventually be impacted if that web is poisoned.

Good to know about the poison ivy/flame thrower! Nothing about that in the manual! Works great on the bahia trying to re-establish in our lane and drive.

If used as directed Round Up shouldnt be used near water. If people read the directions and took the same precautions they do if they were say painting their house none of this would be an issue.

sorry 1lisac ... even if you use Round Up away from water ... it will always end up in our water supplies.
I just don't like messing with "mother nature"

I dont use it so Im not defending it but how will it end up in the water supplies? If used correctly and not allowed to run off.

Anytime you plant a non native you are messing with Mother Nature.

Any time you dig a hole you are "messing with mother nature".
Any time you plant a seed that came from somewhere else you are "messing with mother nature".
Any time you till or turn anything under the soil...apply lime or any of a hundred "organic" fertilizers...
Any time you pull up a weed...
Any time you water a wilting plant during a dry spell...
Any time you transplant anything...
You are messing with Mother Nature.

C'mon, now! Mother nature has withstood volcanoes, earthquakes, ice ages, asteroid strikes. Mother nature gives us arsenic, cadmium, lead, mercury, uranium, radium and hundreds more very toxic and dangerous substances.. Mother nature will be just fine. Don't hang it on her. ;o)

-Rich

As part of an estuary enhancement program Roundup was sprayed on phragmites in an effort to suppress them and encourage the growth of spartina as an alternative. The permit allowed them to apply limited amounts in marsh areas. So it does get sprayed around water.

Rich, I wish I had your faith in the ability of Mother Nature to heal herself. Is that why large animals went extinct after hominid populations invaded new areas rich in wildlife? This crops up again and again in archeological findings. And a lot of species didn't withstand volcanoes and earthquakes. Of course life of some type will most likely continue regardless, but don't we want to be part of that continuity, along with life forms that we are familiar with?

GG I understand about the estuary post you made, well I dont understand why it was allowed. But Im talking about the average person that uses it correctly.

LIsa, it still has a way of creeping into the aquifer. We're organic gardeners anyway so it's not an issue for us, but everyone has to decide where his or her own level of comfort lies in these areas. I do think it would be nice if everyone really understood the risks of various products and practices, so as to make a more informed choice, but I know that's hard to achieve.

Im much more concerned with the Big Ag Companies that spray tons of the stuff all over the place, not your average gardener. If people read and followed the directions it would be nice too, but as you said , "I know that's hard to achieve." : )

I really do try to be organic. There are just a couple of things that must be handled in some other way. That's all. I guess you all have figured out by now that I love to read the labels. Love to learn what is in everything. So I follow the directions to the letter. I've even been known to laminate directions/mixing ratios and hang them in my shed. I don't have a license for the farm grade RoundUp. We're not the type of folk who use RoundUp on our fence lines anyway. It is just for the poison ivy.

We are a remarkable species. We keep wanting more and more - new flavors, new flowers, tastier and more nutritious fruits and vegetables, and all at prices we can afford - ignoring the fact that the main reason we can afford anything at all is because of the same technology we all seem to despise and blame for all the ills of the world. A couple hundred years ago (and back from there to the beginning of time) we didn't have a small fraction of the tech we are so used to today - and we also died of "diseases" that are easily treated with a decent diet, which is now at least available to most people in the developed world. We keep breeding and growing our population as if it weren't part of the equation, then get all bothered because we're losing wildlife habitat, wetlands, arable farmland. How do we manage to be so surprised when things happen the way they (quite predictably) do?

Yes we are losing species at a high rate. If you look closely, most of the places they are going missing are in areas being cleared for farms to grow food for exploding human populations. But human population control is a taboo subject - political poison except in places like China, and there it has come with it's own problems. The alternative is irreversible disaster, I'm afraid.

So it is with Roundup - unintended consequences, not intentional damage. Plowing causes damage to the soil, loss of organic matter, erosion, loss of nutrients and eventually productivity. Practice of "no-till" techniques was just getting going when I was in school, and it was viewed as the answer to a lot of the problems caused by conventional tillage - but it relied on chemical agents to suppress the weeds enough to allow the crops to grow. The best agent found to suppress weed growth, the one with the least potential for environmental damage, is generally Roundup.

So do we go back to conventional tillage? It is far more energy intensive and results in the destruction of the soils we depend on to grow the food we eat. It's so much easier to look at things out of context - it makes condemnation so much simpler when you don't have to provide a workable alternative solution.

I think I posted a link to a timeline of extinctions in another thread. I don't have time to find it right now. Species have been going extinct on and off through the history of the earth, sometimes 90% or more at a shot. Nothing new there. And we already don't have a lot of the familiar species we want to keep. One example (of many): The Brits did a survey of bird population interactions some years back and were shocked to find their beloved kitty-cats were responsible for nearly wiping out local populations of many "familiar" bird species. So, did they rush to put their cats down? Guess...

OK, enough. I'm tired and I'm going to bed.

-Rich

Hmmmm my thought. I will use roundup, "sparingly" I will also grub out an unwanted plant, shrub/ tree or what ever, if I want to grow veggies there. After all many of the thorns and thistles were a curse given to man for disobeying gods word. They were put in mans way to make man to live by the sweat of his brow. He didn't say not to till a garden, nor did he say not to cut down, pull out, chop, cut, tear out, spray, or anything like that. The weeds, thorns and the like are there to remind us and they are persistent.
But we are to take care..
Love my peas and carrots but have not1 developed a taste for poison ivy or thorny bushes. lol


Lawn Care Humor
GOD AND ST. FRANCIS DISCUSSING LAWNS

GOD: Francis, you know all about gardens and nature. What in the world is going on down there? What happened to the dandelions, violets, thistle and stuff I started eons ago? I had a perfect, no-maintenance garden plan. Those plants grow in any type of soil, withstand drought and multiply with abandon. The nectar from the long lasting blossoms attracts butterflies, honey bees and flocks of songbirds. I expected to see a vast garden of colors by now. But all I see are these green rectangles.

ST. FRANCIS: It's the tribes that settled there, Lord. The Suburbanites. They started calling your flowers "weeds" and went to great lengths to kill them and replace them with grass.

GOD: Grass? But it's so boring. It's not colorful. It doesn't attract butterflies, birds and bees, only grubs and sod worms. It's temperamental with temperatures. Do these Suburbanites really want all that grass growing there?

ST. FRANCIS: Apparently so, Lord. They go to great pains to grow it and keep it green. They begin each spring by fertilizing grass and poisoning any other plant that crops up in the lawn.

GOD: The spring rains and warm weather probably make grass grow really fast. That must make the Suburbanites happy.

ST. FRANCIS: Apparently not, Lord. As soon as it grows a little, they cut it-sometimes twice a week.

GOD: They cut it? Do they then bale it like hay?

ST. FRANCIS: Not exactly, Lord. Most of them rake it up and put it in bags.

GOD: They bag it? Why? Is it a cash crop? Do they sell it?

ST. FRANCIS: No Sir. Just the opposite. They pay to throw it away.

GOD: Now let me get this straight. They fertilize grass so it will grow. And when it does grow, they cut it off and pay to throw it away?

ST. FRANCIS: Yes, Sir.

GOD: These Suburbanites must be relieved in the summer when we cut back on the rain and turn up the heat. That surely slows the growth and saves them a lot of work.
ST. FRANCIS: You aren't going to believe this Lord. When the grass stops growing so fast, they drag out hoses and pay more money to water it so they can continue to mow it and pay to get rid of it.

GOD: What nonsense. At least they kept some of the trees. That was a sheer stroke of genius, if I do say so myself. The trees grow leaves in the spring to provide beauty and shade in the summer. In the autumn they fall to the ground and form a natural blanket to keep moisture in the soil and protect the trees and bushes. Plus, as they rot, the leaves form compost to enhance the soil. It's a natural circle of life.

ST. FRANCIS: You better sit down, Lord. The Suburbanites have drawn a new circle. As soon as the leaves fall, they rake them into great piles and pay to have them hauled away.

GOD: No. What do they do to protect the shrub and tree roots in the winter and to keep the soil moist and loose?

ST. FRANCIS: After throwing away the leaves, they go out and buy something which they call mulch. They haul it home and spread it around in place of the leaves.

GOD: And where do they get this mulch?

ST. FRANCIS: They cut down trees and grind them up to make the mulch.

GOD: Enough. I don't want to think about this anymore. St. Catherine, you're in charge of the arts. What movie have they scheduled for us tonight?"

ST. CATHERINE: "Dumb and Dumber", Lord. It's a really stupid movie about.....

GOD: Never mind, I think I just heard the whole story from St. Francis.

giggle ...

Snort! =D. Did I mention my dandelion as perenial scheme? Even though the fuzzles make me sneeze!

Love the story! Thanks!

I pity the much maligned dandelion. All parts of this plant are edible. My mother said they use to make coffee from chicory and dandelion roots during the war years. Dandelion wine was very popular in the small town where I grew up in England.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/2008-04-01/Dandelion-Recipes.aspx

In our area one of the towns has held a dandelion festival each spring for many years to highlight this useful "weed." On offer are dandelion wine, dandelion ravioli, dandelion salad, dandelion sausage, and almost everything else you could think of.

More on Roundup/glyphosate, if you're interested:

http://www.ofa.org.au/papers/glyphosatereview.htm

To me a dandilion wouldnt even be worth the effort! Especially if I could eat it. My main concern is the large amounts that are used in the Ag. Business. Hay, livestock feed which many of us use for mulch and to add OM.

Growing up in northern Italy I had the best memory of me my mom and my aunts picking dandelion leaves (=pisacani) along the field and the side of the roads.
My mom would clean and boil them.
Drain, squeeze the water out and make giant ball to freeze the extra ones.
Add olive oil, salt and pepper and yummy !!
I would string the flowers and make a necklace ...
sweet memories ...

What, drthor - no garlic? We always add that.

Ok Scotts produces a lot more products then Round Up. What's wrong with Miracle grow?

Nothing if you're not an organic gardener....

Somebody above posted that they used their Organic potting soil.

Yes, I did. When trasplanting rose bands to larger pots to overwinter. The last bag I had had a USDA organic mark on the label. I'll be in town this weekend, so I'll be looking for more.

Im trying to get the conversation away from RU (I didnt even know Scott's made that) so we can get more info on their other products. Good or bad

Right- this seems to be going nowhere-

I guess the thing that is interesting to me is that many fertilizers are moving away from phosphorus. I found some information that indicates that it is because of the cost, that the sources of phosphorus for fertilizers are becoming more expensive. It's funny to me that the same producers jump on the "green" bandwagon by saying that they are eliminating phosphorus because it can contaminate the water. My guess is that the truth is somewhere in-between...but in the mean time, I plan on continuing to use balanced fertilizers when I need them and can get them.

Phosphorus is a key ingredient for root and fruit development. It's an element on the periodic table so....

Jo are you being sarcastic? RU is on a couple of threads right now and I just thought it would be interesting to see what other products they make and how each of us are affected. Didn't meant to be bossy. : )

No- I wouldn't do that!