the raised bed of death

My first 2 raised beds are 4'x8'x15'' I didn't have enough dirt so I "sheet composted". I have the same stuff in each one but in one raised bed everything dies or stays stunted. The first crop was some herbs and a couple tomatoes. One dropped every blossom and one managed to produce a few bitter cherry tomatoes.

I did a crop of green beans the next year, they seemed to do Ok, but then I never grew bush beans. I was satisfied however. I tried a winter crop after that, nothing grew (it did grow in the twin bed)

I removed most of thd dirt this summer and put a bag of miricle grow ( I think) and mixed in with the remaining dirt. The remaining dirt looked nice and fluffy and black. I then planted some sunflowers, zinnias, herbs and a few little onion sets I had left over and could not destroy. (I have a hard time playing sophies choice with my seedlings, consequently I always have an overgrown jungle at the end of the summer)

The sunflowers in the other garden grew over 10 feet tall!!! The ones in teh bed of death grew about 4 inches and had a tiny bloom. The onions sat dormant, the exact same size as when I planted them. I had swiss chard even in early summer on the twin raised bed!

I have opened it up and let the chickens have at it. I can't tell anything by looking at it, there are a lot of little roots. When I attempted to grow stuff in it I had a hard time watering it for some reason. Part of the problem is they are too high, maybe if I tried a fancy schmancy mix of dirt with vermiculite but I'm too cheap. I tossed some partially composted stuff when I cleaned out my heap, I'm not growing anything in that bed at the moment.


What could the problem be? When I started my garden I sheet composed because of lack of soil. I had mixed success, doesn't matter though, I have plenty of nice compost from my huge pile. I wonder if a fungus got in there that keeps the soil from getting wet made it dry? I read about that somewhere. I do have a problem with those two raised beds, they are just too high. I want it that way for my own comfort, maybe I should get some vermiculite and try mels mix. I removed dirt on my beds that are full and add fresh compost and dirt, it would be like shoveling out money if I do Mels'.

I might just paint it to look like a coffin.

I would have laughed at your post, Margo (right?), if it hadn't had a certain tragic aspect, after all that effort!

You mention that it seems hard to keep the soil damp in the B of D. This can happen if the compost materials aren't adequately broken down, and especially if it's out of balance with the soil. Even sheet compost has to be "on the way" and wettable before stuff can grow in it; and if there's a lot more uncomposted organic material than soil, you'll have a hard time with moisture control.

I would think, with plenty of organic stuff like you have, you don't need any fancy perlite/peat mixes. You could probably get away with those cheap bags of "top soil". My main complaint about that stuff is that it's so heavy and airless; but you'll be providing the air with all your organic material. I avoid Miracle-Gro soils because I like to control the fertilizer issues myself. And I regularly dig top soil out of my woods, and mix it with stuff from the bottom of my huge compost pile, when I start new gardens around the house. Everything in that combo does great.

If the watering doesn't seem like the answer, you could go further to look at *all* the variables that can have affected your plants. Are both beds made of the same material, or do the woods used vary? I've heard lately that treated timber ought to be just fine, but there's that bit of niggling doubt... Microclimate: What about light exposure - more shade in one place than another? Any chance that wind can be part of it? The sheet compost: were all the ingredients the same, or did the B of D have something, uh, "special" in it? (Any black walnut parts? Although I'm not sure that would matter - I've read somewhere recently that it's not the tree parts themselves that cause problems. Any herbicides in the compost materials?)

Do you suppose anybody dumped some Preen over your B of D, thinking that it was fertilizer? (This could explain why the beans worked, but later crops didn't, if Preen was dumped on there after the beans.) What about weed spray/herbicide drift? Antagonistic/careless neighbor anywhere close by? Any visiting cats? (Not that I'm sure how much damage they could do - and I think you'd see some Evidence, including disturbed soil and dug-up plants.)

You said you have chickens. Very hot manure, from the composting point of view, but very valuable when aged. Any too-new chicken manure in the compost, maybe?

If you don't get any answers here that make sense to you, you could get some scientific answers by taking a soil sample to your local extension service and getting it tested. The pH might be way off, for some reason. If it was me and I went to do this, I would take a sample from each bed. If the analysis comes out the same for both, you have to look at other things than soil.

Joan

Any horse manure used in the compost? There is a broad leaf herbicide that is used on hay fields that does not break down in the horse's intestine and persists for years in the soil if that manure is used in compost or on the garden.
Salt build up (comes from many sources, especially manure) can stunt plant growth.

For more information on such accidental "organic" additions to your garden (picloram, clopyralid, aminopyralid), check:

http://herbicides.us/commercial-compost-contains-persistent-herbicides/

That site doesn't even discuss the crap that is put into animal feeds - hormones, antibiotics (means literally "against life"), feed-through wormers. I have access to a virtually unlimited supply of horse manure, none of which I use because of what the horses receive. Horses are fed and injected with chemicals that aren't allowed in animals used for meat, and which persist in their urine and feces.

Another thing to consider are growth inhibitors that are in wood itself. Some plants produce them to help limit competition around their roots. When I was working on my Masters in Horticulture, I came across a number of references indicating a number of trees that could not be used as media additives. I remember specifically some of the maples being especially toxic, but most conifers also contain chemicals that inhibit growth and (not coincidentally) are strongly hydrophobic (repel water). In fact, a LOT of tree bark is very hydrophobic - it has to be to keep intact and not swell and burst right on the tree when it rains. Trees native to rainy areas can naturally be expected to contain higher concentrations of these compounds.

-Rich

Rich, I've always wondered about cow manure too (we grow vegan, no animal products used). Several of the "organic" growers at our local market buy feed lot manure by the ton because it is cheap ($2.00 per ton). I know feed lot cattle must get more medications than the free range cattle and it surely persists in the manure and urine that builds up in the lot.

Some of the growers also buy cotton seed trash (the junk left from ginning, has seed, cotton fiber and leaves) to add either directly to the garden or to their compost piles. We grow cotton and I know what is dumped on the crop, all cotton grown in the valley is GMO plus they spray extra weed killer for round-up resistant weeds and it gets sprayed with a defoliant two weeks before harvest. There is no way i want that stuff on my veggies. One certified organic compost supplier got tons of the cotton trash to add to his operation.

One of the warnings I heard when the USDA co-opted the term "organic" was that it would draw in a lot of growers who were only interested in the higher market value of food that could be labeled "USDA-organic". I'm sure J.I. Rodale has been rolling over in his grave for some time now. There are serious problems that SHOULD be addressed by the organic certification folks, but that is not going to happen automatically because it is not currently in the interest of anyone directly involved to officially recognize them as problems (i.e.: growers, suppliers, government regulators).

The whole situation is especially ironic given that when I was in Ag school (30 years ago) my professors would get absolutely goo-goo-eyed over chemical "slow-release" fertilizers while absolutely refusing to seriously consider the fact that compost was already the perfect slow-release. There was no money to be made in compost; no patents available, no high-dollar grants for research. This was before anyone had seriously considered the need to recycle anything, BTW (aside from returnable glass bottles), in spite of the fact that landfills were already reaching capacity around urban centers and the practice of offshore dumping was recognized to have serious downsides. They scoffed at the very idea that Rodale-style "organic" food was economically viable or even worthwhile from a health standpoint.

In a way I suppose they were right...it took a drastic loosening of the definition to make it profitable by making it easy to be "organic". Unfortunately, that means it is harder than ever to know you are getting anything REALLY Organic.


OK, I'll get off the soapbox...for now.

-Rich

The first thing I thought of was systemic broadleaf herbicide as Calalily mentioned, BUT Ive been told a quick way to test for this in manure is to try and grow beans, they are more susceptible to its effects. You said the beans did OK so now Im at a loss.

That's good to know. I've got a reasonably-priced source of composted wood waste nearby and have hesitated to buy from them because I didn't know how to be sure it was safe without expensive tests. Of course, being wood waste collected from all over several counties, you might get a high concentration of herbicide in one cubic foot and nothing at all 6 inches away. But it's a starting point.

I'm still thinking about the tendency of the garden soil to shed water. I have had that happen on an area newly converted from an untended back yard "lawn" to a vegetable garden. I'm wondering if the addition of a biodegradable surfactant might help. Maybe spraying on some water containing a few teaspoons of liquid soap or a mild detergent to initiate wetting might overcome the initial tendency to resist further wetting. Once the initial moisture has penetrated to soil, it could provide a capillary pathway to introduce more water.

-Rich

I didn't use any manure in the bed. And whats so puzzling is occasionally something seems to grow?!?!


I'm going to remove all of teh dirt in that bed, and start over from scratch. Obviously something is out of whack. I've occasionally used some soapy water in my beds, even that one. Maybe I didnt' use enough, I'm kind of hesitant to go overboard.

Luckily it's only one bed and not a big one at that.

Well, if the alternative is digging it up and dumping it, what have you got to lose?

-Rich

If your not using manure what are you using as a source of Nitrogen in your compost pile? Whats in your compost to breakdown the organic material?

I use compost made of lots of yard clippings, like leaves and grass, plus kitchen scraps and chicken poo. I also ammend with 10;10;10, lime, ironite, and gypsom.

I'll put the death bed dirt in the front yard, the grass is already dead so there's nothing left to lose. My backyard is lush except for under the bird feeders and in the bed of death.

I would conclude that I had to much partially composed compost in it except it's all nice black dirt?!? And a bunch of thin fiberous roots that I assummed was from the crop of green beans awhile back but maybe that's really the problem. Now that I think about it.

I was thinking that maybe you didnt have enough N, and since the beans put N into the soil that was why they grew. I also thought that things mite be only partially composted , like you mentioned, which would also tie up the N, but doesnt explain the "nice black dirt".

I would have to do one of those at home soil tests, just for grins, I know they arent very reliable but.......

I just read this whole thread and ya'll have me wondering so many things...

"I use compost made of lots of yard clippings, like leaves and grass, plus kitchen scraps and chicken poo. I also ammend with 10;10;10, lime, ironite, and gypsom. "

Margo, lisa may be on to something with the nitrogen area. You've added yard clipping (grass and leaves) with grass being high N, leaves decaying stealing that N. You've added chicken poo, more N. You've also added commercial 10-10-10, more N. Good grief.

You've also added ironite, which tends to lower pH (making the soil more acidic), why? Did you take a soil pH test? And you've added lime, which makes the pH more alkaline, so you have ironite and lime competing with each other...why? You've added gypsum, which doesn't alter pH but simply adds calcium, which is what lime would do in itself, so why?

I'm afraid someone has led you to believe "more is better", a common malady in the gardening world.

I think at this point I'd just send your soil sample to the Ag Dept and have it analyzed. I think it is still a free service in Georgia.

Regarding "used the same things" in both beds, did those "same things" come from the same sources or various other sources? Are both beds getting the same amount of sun? Do they seem to both have the same drainage ability? Did you plant your onions and such soon after "making" your soil during the time the soil would've had N locked up? Were the sunflowers the type that would normally grow ten feet or were they stressed from lack of sun and were simply stretching to the light? And the M-gro soil you added, which is a peat base mixed, has it packed down tightly causing lack of oxygen to the roots, soggy soil, and thereby rotted roots?

So many factors involved here and I don't think there will be any one resolution, even the one of removing all the soil and starting over. Again, get a soil test, discover the problem and I bet you may see an very easy way to resolve the issue. Think back about the area your garden(s) are in during the seasons (light/shade, rainfall, drainage, mulch or no mulch, etc).

All in all, this is the fun stage, too. Discovering, learning, enjoying and reaping the benefits which are sometimes the education as well as the harvest.

Wishing you the best.
Happy Gardening!
Shoe (too lazy to go check for any typos when I speed type like this!) *grin

You've gotten some good advice already. I'm suspecting that Miracle Grow stuff maybe has too much peat in it. I mixed a bag of MG soil (can't remember if it was potting soil or garden soil) into one section of my garden and thought it was nicely mixed and nice and fluffy. And before long, I'm thinking that my cauliflowers had been planted into a brick. I literally had to poke a bunch of holes in it with a stick, to get the water to go INTO the soil instead of sitting on top. The cauliflowers are doing okay now, but I put them in as transplants -- no way would they have come up if I had planted seeds. Just a thought.

I vote do the soil test. Enquiring minds want to know...

I have left over compost in it right now. I'm going to empty it in the spring and put the dirt in the front yard. Then I'm going to move the frame and dig under the bed some and remove some of the roots. I'm going to have lots of compost ready in the spring so I can put nice new dirt in it.

I also have some rock dust so the new dirt should be awesome. I'm going on the assumption that something underneath it is affecting it. Maybe roots, maybe something else. I also think they are too high to keep moist. I'm also going to screw strips of wood over the seams of the boards so it doesn't dry out as much.

The twin bed has some nice swiss chard in it as we speak. I also planted new chard so half of the bed is producing mature chard and half new chard.

After my chard crop I'm going to do the same thing to that bed. I think these two short raised beds are borderline too high and that's the main problem. Now that it's not hot it's relativly easy to keep them moist enough but they dry out quite a bit in the summer. I think a better soil mix, less roots, and plugging the gaps in the boards should fix my problem.

I'm not going to fill them all the way at first, that way there is room to easily ammend the dirt with new compost each year. The rest of my dirt is a thing of beauty. Now that I have chickens and my composting fu is strong I produce a goodly portion of compost a couple times a year.

I'll post pics as soon as I get a new camera.

1.
I think you're smart to dump the 'soil of death' somewhere OTHER than in a good bed! Wheter it is pH, nutrient excess or soil microbe disease, don't let the bad kill the good! And most things other than disease, diluted enough, cease to be harmful.

If the problem is some kind of soil disease, you might try innoculating the next "fill" of good soil with a few shovelfulls of soil from each of your healthiest beds, and some shovelfulls from the heart of some "cooking" compost heaps. Give the good bugs a head start.

2.
One way to cure "too dry" would be to change the raised bed into a sunken bed. If its subsoil drains too well, maybe you need to LOWER the bed's rooot zone closer to the water table.

Just dig another 6-8" of subsoil out and then when you re-build, make the walls 6-8" less tall. (That is a lot of work for an experiment!)

Or build a "skirt" or terrace around the too-tall bed - a narrow raised bed that is only about half as high as the Dead Bed. Watering both beds would assure that more water gets to the inner bed's roots.

>> the tendency of the garden soil to shed water.

I had that happen when I added too many wood chips to one bed ("Soil Pep" was a cheap but terrible soil amendment). Something wierd happened that left white, dusty "stuff" behind. I think maybe the lignin decomposed first, and left fungus plus pure cellulose that looked dusty and seemed to repel water. Or could there be fungal hyphae that reple water? Or maybe suck it up so fast that everything around it LOOKS dry?

Just waiting a year while turning in other kinds of compost and mulch helped some, and two years cured it. Now that's pretty fiar soil, suffering only from the high water table.

But that was a very LOW bed with a HIGH water table, sitting on top of heavy clay: borderline soggy and borderline insufficient air. Not like yours.

3.
>> too high to keep moist. I'm also going to screw strips of wood over the seams of the boards so it doesn't dry out as much.

I save the 2 cubic foot, heavy plastic bags from soil amendmengts and mulch. Then, where the CORNERS of my raised beds dry out too fast, I line the raised bed walls with plastic, from where the walls sit on heavy clay up to the internal soil level. The beds still drain slowly, straight down into heavy clay, but slowly.

Even if you dislike plastic, you might consider lining those high RB "dry walls" with plastic that would otherwise go into a landfill.

Or maybe paint the wood on the ionside with some non-toxic waterproof paint.
Some kind of putty or crack filler in the seams?
Maybe only seal the lower 6-10" of the walls?

(My walls are made from concrete paving stones stood on end, so they conduct water not only through the cracks but even right through the 1/2" or 3/4" concrete.)

I don;t think that lining the RB walls with plastic harms the underlying soil, except that, over decades, tiny amounts of plasticisers leach out and breakdown products eventually appear. Still, they either break down like anything organic, or they don't break down and are basically mostly inert. Not a true "organic" philosophy, but if a moderate amount of plastic cures an entire bed, the gain may exceed the downside.


>> ROOTS