Three Sisters in Rows?

Greetings:

Long time, no posting. :)

I want to do a Three Sisters in my garden down here in zone 10a. I was originally going to just tear up part of the weed-laden back yard and do a 10 x 10/12 x 12' round, but hubby has issues with that, so I was wondering:

1. Can I do the Three Sisters in a rectangular raised bed (16' x 4'), and

2. If I do it in a raised bed, how many mounds, and how many plants per mound, can I do?

Thank you.

Have a spectacular day!

BUMP

no one loves me? :(

me.

I don't think anyone is intentionally ignoring you. I just think they don't have any specific answers, or are on to other things right now. Most folks are either buttoning up their gardens for the winter in the cold-winter areas, or planting their cool-weather crops in the deep South. I'm guessing no one outside of zone 10 is thinking much about corn, beans and squash unless they're harvesting them, or already browsing the seed catalogs for next year. Even in South Florida, they might present a challenge planting now because the shorter days will limit the light they all need.

-Rich

On re-reading my post I realized I should have been more complete.

Almost all the crops I grow over the winter here in north Florida are either leaves, shoots or roots. The only exceptions are the broad beans (which I don't expect to set pods before spring) and the peas I won't be setting out until the really cold weather has (hopefully) passed.

Leaves of course form right away (turnip greens, mustard, kale, collards, leaf lettuces) and are edible as soon as you decide they are big enough to be worth the effort. The more common root crops either start filling their roots as as soon as the green parts have gotten big enough (like turnips, radishes, carrots, etc.) or take their good time about producing them. Of course there are exceptions, like plants that make heads or other specialized vegetative structures (broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts), but even those are perfectly edible before the heads form.

OTOH, plants grown for their fruit or seeds are at a disadvantage during the short days of winter because they must first make a complete vegetative plant, and only when they have an adequate leaf surface to capture light and sufficient roots to take up all the nutrients they'll need can they shift into their reproductive stage of growth. And of course they include all three of the Sisters.

-Rich

I didn't mean that anyone was ignoring me rjodgen, LOL! I know everyone's busy and such - it was just something (I thought) was cute to say after 'bumping' up the thread.

I'll try the three sisters - at least we'll have an answer for next year, eh?

everyone tells me that the crops that everyone else in other zones grows during summer I can grow down here in fall/winter because of the heat (yesterday was 91) and the winters are mild, but then I read this and now am totally confused because the seed packets say grown between sept and february.

....and which beans are 'broad' beans? I got the newbie seeds, and someone put painted lady runner beans, lima beans, great northern beans. are any of those 'broad'?

thank you for your responses, btw. :)

I did a Three Sister's Garden this year in my 8' x 16' raised bed by putting in 2 large raised circles. They ended up being about 6' "rounds", each containing 3 mounds. The actual mounds had the 5 corn plants (top, bottom, left, right, and center) with 1 bean each between the corn (equalling 4 beans). In between the mounds, in 6 clusters, I put 3 seeds of alternating melons and squash. The concept worked great, but I need to add more soil next year. The corn had issues with the winds because there apparently wasn't enough soil for them to dig their feet into. The beans were very slow starting this year, so they ended up running rampant when they finally took off, and most of my squash/melon seeds didn't germinate. It was successful enough to teach me whsat I did wrong, and the veggies were superb!

Your runner beans will do excellently in the set-up, and you might want to consider a viney canteloupe instead of, or along with, a viney squash.

thank you, Sequee - input greatly appreciated.

I'd say "go for it", but I do hope you get responses from more zone 10 gardeners.

Broad beans are also called fava beans. They are a totally different genus and species from common beans - Vicia rather than Phaseolus. They are almost completely unknown here but grown all over Europe, in England and around the Mediterranean. They can be found canned in some grocery stores in the ethnic sections if you want to sample some first.

I've long ago quit paying any attention to seed packet planting dates. Most of the companies producing seed for retail sale are located from zone 7 north, and most of their customers are in cold weather areas as well.

We're touching on a pet peeve of mine. Almost no one seems to care about Southern gardeners. The best varieties for our summer heat and humidity are hard to locate and buy, and finding up-to-date information is almost impossible in many areas - if it exists outside of the personal experience of determined gardeners. The extension services (search on IFAS here in Florida) do an OK job as far as they go, but many of the varieties they suggest are very obsolete, and last time I checked some of the chemicals they still recommended aren't even available any more (at least not without an application license). They don't have the budget for the sort of extensive research that would benefit the home gardener, especially when it involves alternative pest controls, and the information they do provide is often very scanty unless the plant is also grown here as a commercial crop - and then most of the information isn't applicable because it's scaled for large industrial operations. As a result, I know would-be gardeners who gave up when things failed to grow when planted "as directed", or when they were overwhelmed by insects or diseases which are in many cases the result of planting at the wrong times. At least the extension services can give you an idea *when* to plant the most common vegetables, but a lot of the ones that do very well here with very little care are unknown to most of the English-speaking population (especially transplanted Yankees ;o) and are pretty much ignored by the state-run agencies.

I could go on for hours but it's late and I work tomorrow. You can DMail me and I'll forward you the names of some books that I've found helpful, & that won't break the bank.

-Rich

Broad beans like the same cool conditions as peas plus they do not climb. They are not the 3-sisters beans, which like warm conditions favored by the corn and squash, and are climbers (either pole or runner beans) to climb up the corn.

thanks, guys. I'm still waiting for the wampum corn I direct sowed last week to germinate and grow a bit, so I have some time for research. :)

Howdy SoFla...

Back to your original questions:

"1. Can I do the Three Sisters in a rectangular raised bed (16' x 4'), and
2. If I do it in a raised bed, how many mounds, and how many plants per mound, can I do?

Yes, you can do it in a rectangular bed. You can make mounds, similar to what Sequee suggested, having them approx 2 ft across and in a staggered layout. I'd go with four corn plants per mound, five if you want to put on in the center of the mound. I'm not familiar with "wampum corn" but hopefully it is a large sturdy corn so it supports any vine climbing up it.

Most folks are not aware that the "3 sisters" was when the N-Americans grew a very large-stalked corn, more akin to field corn than our modern day sweet corn. Most sweet corns don't have the support needed to grow heavy vines up them. Trust me, I did this several times and it is no fun when the corn lodges and you spend umpteen hours trying to pick beans from bowled-over corn stalks. Ugh.

And yes, broad beans are more like tall skinny plants, not vines; I think you may have a chance growing them though. They do grow through cool weather but yet also will handle your Florida winters and still give you a crop. They most likely won't flower until the end of winter/early spring though but that's fine, you can also eat the tender shoots/leaves if you like.

"but then I read this and now am totally confused because the seed packets say grown between sept and february"

Your seed packets may have indeed contained seeds for your area. What variety of plants are they? Just curious.

Shoe

Another bit of 3 Sisters trivia - My sister tells me there was actually a fourth sister - studies of old farming sites show that the Native Americans also grew a plant to attract pollinators. I forget whether she said native Cleome or Monarda. In any case, trimming your bed with a border of herbs and/or flowers to attract beneficial insects would be in keeping with tradition.

Great bit of info. pollen! I will add that in to next season's efforts.

Shoe - that's good to know. I thought my plants fell over in the wind because they weren't deep rooted enough, but it sounds like it could have been a combination of things. (I grew Silver Queen corn.)

Well, I've often had to go down my corn rows and hill up the stalks, giving the plants more soil to sink roots into. Often times corn will send out roots right at the soil level line; if you hill them up those upper roots will better penetrate the soil, go wider and deeper, helping to stabilize the plants.
Here is a pic showing an example....

Keep in mind, some corn varieties tend to have thinner stalks to begin with so it is not always the root system (or lack of) at fault.

Shoe

oh! awesome info, Horseshoe - thanks.

If the wampum corn isn't tall enough or sturdy enough, I already have plans to put in a trellis wheel for when the beans grow up over the corn to take the weight off.

I'll make sure to hill up the soil when they get big enough.

Right now, I just saw a few corn sprouts (which is really amazing, since yesterday or the day before I saw none - whoo-hoo!

Great photo. I never noticed anything like that before. That's the wonderful thing about gardening, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know!!!

RE: Corn that blows over (lodges). It gets windy enough that they close the roads for semi-tractor trailers around here with unfortunate regularity. I now plant corn in trenches or holes instead of hills, and add dirt around them as they grow taller until it forms a mound around them. This has dramatically reduced the number of plants that blow over (I used to get way more than 50% blown over - now there are hardly any).

kmom, That's great for your area. Around here in corn planting time it is hard enough to get the ground dry enough to plant in a ridge let alone planting in a soggy trench.

Yep - I'd be happy to swap a few tons of sand for some of your water ;-)

I've heard that in Colonial times, they alternated planting rows on top of the ridge of soil and down in the trench of soil. In wet years the rows planted high made it, and in dry years the rows planted low made it. The ancestral Indians of the Southwest planted in low spots. Colorado has high/dry prairie/desert weather. The raised beds that are popular in garden books and magazines are problematic here. Like Nevada, the dry air can suck the beds dry, especially on a windy day or with sandy soil. Mulching helps, but then you have to figure out a way to keep the mulch from blowing away (or floating away in a cloudburst).

I have found that making a paper mache with shredded newspaper seems to stay around even when it is windy. Do have to dampen it down when extreme wind is expected. Shredded other paper doesn't work as well. Also, I cover the layer of mulch with about an inch of sand, and that also helps. Nothing works completely when we have more than 50 MPH winds, but usually I can keep most of the mulch around with covering it with sand. Planting closely also helps. The inside rows of corn kept their mulch all season, as did the stuff applied under the zucchini leaves once the plants got bigger.

well, I did two mounds, and planted a 'cross' pattern in the mounds. I soaked the seeds in water/peroxide solution. Not all the seeds germinated, but (so far) so good....

It will be fun to follow your process.

Were you using the Hydrogen peroxide to stimulate germination? Or as a fungicide? or something else?
I've never heard of using hydrogen peroxide on annual vegetables - I know some people use it on tricky-from-seed perennials.

I saw somewhere that using hydrogen peroxide in water solution helps oxygenation and aids in germination.

it'll be interesting to document progress.

Rich, don't mean to threadjack, but just have to say that I appreciated your comments re resources for southern gardeners. If I hadn't found Dave's garden and the zone 8-10 gardeners here, I might have given up, for the reasons you cited. The big box stores seem to order supplies based on the northern climes -- I remember going to Home Depot looking for seeds in late summer for a fall garen and they said to come back in the spring, they had taken down all their seed racks for the year (gotta make room for fake Christmas trees, lol). Luckily now I'm hooked into Dave's garden and have found some pretty good online gardening calendars for my zone, and get most of my seeds online. The last epiphany was when I realized a lot of those back-of-the-pack seed packet directions are also sometimes off-base for us. (I do READ them, but pay more attention to my fellow gardeners).
No wait -- actually the last epiphany was realizing that if I want transplants, I have to grow them myself from seeds. Sometimes I get lucky and find a few transplants but I sure can't count on finding them. Okay, I meant this note to sound like a grateful thank you for your comments, and it's threatening to become rant-ish, so I'd better stop. LOL.

That's not a thread-jack - I feel the same way - no real resources (except here) for southern gardeners.