have a source for all the horse manure i can use, i know i have to let it season(dry out i guess is what i mean) , but dont know what vegetables it is good for and what ones it might be bad for. please help. also, the ground here is awful, mostly clay and decomposed granite, and thought turning it into the ground might help with the water issue( so hot everything dries out in less than 24 hrs)
thanks for any help/suggestions i have used it in an attempt to smother weeds which is kind of working.
kc
horse manure-what vegetables is it good for? bad for?
Manures will not cure your garden woes but can help if not used in excess. Any manure should be composted hot to kill off pathogens for at least six months. There are a couple of points to note with manures. One is that horses, cows and chickens are grain fed and you'll end up with a pile of healthy weeds as well. Make sure you are able to cultivate out the clover, bermuda and fescue that is preferred for horse hay. A second point is that these animals are routinely given de-wormers such as Zimecterin and Strongid and sometimes antibiotics. Make sure you are comfortable with those pharmaceuticals in your garden. We used to have horses and I did use the manures but now only use green manure. I realize many gardeners here might not agree with me. A third point to note, and it is the most removed, is that American farm animals are fed the most chemicalized ( I realize that's not a word but you get it) diet on the planet. If I had horses again I might name one Monsanto and the other ConAgra. If you are looking for a quick fix to your soil then manure might be part of the solution but in the long term I'd look at other ways to improve the soil like green crops that you can grow and till or maybe there is Pacific seaweed available. Hope this helps.
Laurel
Also, some of the Broadleaf herbicides used on hay and grain are now systemic meaning they will sterilize your soil. A great way to test for it is to try to get a bean seed to grow in it if it wont I wouldn't put the manure in my garden. Once that gets in your garden the only way to get it out is to completely remove the soil. If the bean seed germinates and grows the manure may contain herbicides but not a systemic kind. I have to second everything posted above but manure is a good source of organic material for you dirt.
so far all that has sprouted has been oats. (recycled through the horses i guess) is there a specific reason to try a bean seed rather than, say, squash or something? are beans more suseptible to the systemics? sorry, lots of questions but i never thought of all these things in reference to something as simple (or i guess not so simple) as poop. sad to say i never considered pesticides, oops, herbicides, (poison non the less) on hay, and asd i dont use any myself on anything that is very troubling.
That's what I've heard that beans are more suseptible, and they germinate fast so you'll know right away if there is a problem.
"so far all that has sprouted has been oats."
risingcreek, if you're getting oats sprouting that is a pretty good sign. You might want to watch them and use them as a harbinger (for lack of the word I'm really trying to think of!). Some of the systemic herbicides Lisa mentioned above will allow plants to germinate, grow to a point, then turn yellow and die. My poor UPS driver had to deal with that in his garden; the ag ext man told him it would take 3 years for the herbicide to give out.
If it were me I'd ask your manure source what they use on their pastures, let them know your intentions for your use (*growing veggies, flowers, etc).
Laurel has offered good advice but use it as an education not think of it as the end of the world. A lot of horse folks in my area have reduced the use of chemicals in horse diets (spending high dollar money to do so) and tend to use antibiotics only when needed, not on a monthly schedule. Many of those folks are also penny wise and give meds according the horses true weight so there is less being excreted (wasted) through their bowels.
Just curious; are you using straight poop or what we call "stable sweepings", manure mixed with sawdust from the barns.
Shoe
i have both. the reason i know it is oats is because they sprouted, maybe not the right word for producing stalks of oats. (thought it was grass at first) the manure comes from mini horses, and she uses no pesticides anywhere on her grounds, (i did think to ask that before i started getting it) and feeds a combination of oat hay and alfalfa, with no bagged grain. it is so hot here there are no grass pastures, costs too much in water to have them. horse people here buy baled grass to feed, which seems so odd to me, ( i come from back east )
Asking is the best way but a systemic broadleaf herbicide will allow oats, other grains and grasses to grow, just not broad leaf plants like veggies. I never worried much about the pharmaceuticals in the manure, because like Shoe said, I used them very sparingly.
I had a really bad experience last year with contaminated compost- (which was purchased in bags) My tomatoes and peppers and pole beans all had terrible deformed growth- some outgrew it, but many just died. At first I had thought it cound be drift from herbicides,but after looking online and reading about contamination of grazing fields with herbicides, and animal manure carrying it- I am convinced that was it. There is a ton of info on the web if anyone wants to read about it-
by grazing fields do you mean where animals are out grazing or where they grow feed for them? i am trying to cultivate acres of bad soil and it is just not cost effective for me to go out and buy additives (like gromulch or whatever) seems like i would be taking a bigger risk with purchased products, as i would have no knowledge or control of what is in them.
for myself, i have to consider what is the bigger risk. grow my own produce or, buy things in the market that come from who knows where grown who knows how.
to take this a bit further, to see if i am following correctly- if i purchase a calf and feed it with feed store grain/hay then am i at risk for the same pesticide/herbicide issues when the cow is slaughtered and i eat the beef? if so, then it seems that nothing is safe. so frustrating.
Take my post as food for thought and, as Shoe said, use it to add to your garden know how. I manured my garden for years with bagged Black Kow, manure from our animals and manure from friends chicken, horse and cow farms. Though I tried to grow what was then called "natural food" I had no concept (like most) of what organics was. Today my garden is not certifiably organic because I use Daconil but I try to stay as close to the concept as is reasonable where I grow food. By raising your own food you have a better understanding of what is or isn't in it. That's to your advantage because as you cultivate your garden you will gain control of your dirt. You will then feel more empowered than frustrated. I don't get that same feeling when I walk into Whole Foods and buy tomatoes with an organic sign overhead than when I go and pluck my own knowing they got one shot of fungicide last month. Good luck with your garden and like other things in life I recommend not over thinking it.
True, but I think the question was about horse manure. Apparently horses are on different diets out west. Ours were on high quality pasture grass while here at Maypop and the same when they went down the street where they stayed when we were not here. No herbicides or insecticides. We did fertilize with chicken manure twice a year and add lime. In addition, our horses were grained twice a day. They were also wormed monthly. It is important to know that de-wormers don't necessarily kill the worms, just make them release and leave the animal. Some worms common to horses also can be hosted by humans. Besides the already mentioned chemical concerns which are really a matter of choice, make sure barn and pasture manures are well composted. There is enough information online to get the job done right. Now on to manure teas...
The making of manure teas may be of interest to you because you can strain off weed seeds. It is more used as a substitute for petrochemical based fertilizers to feed plants than to improve soil tilth. You may want to look at that too.
Won't composting manure for 6-12 months let most herbicides mostly decompose?
If they didn't decompose, they would build up in fields until no one needed to buy any more ... so I assume the herbicide manufacturers WOULD give them short lifetimes!
Corey
This is an interesting point. You might ask what do these herbicides, pesticides, miticides and fertilizers decompose to? Once decomposition occurs do you want to eat it? It won't kill a weed maybe but then look at our waterways filled with antibiotics, herbicides and petrochemicals. That's drinking water for most people in this country. There's so much information out there to help improve your individual situation. You don't have to have a rabid gardening philosophy but you can self-educate. That goes beyond individual opinions, including mine.
Actually, some pesticides and herbicides accumulate rather than dissipate in the soil over time.
The comments about the residuals in water remind me that we throw stuff "away"... but where IS "away" anyway?
Yes, well said, Darius. They are there not as what the were originally but something else. Perhap now chemically more simplistic but not necessarily less harmful.
I'm signing off in classic Shoe style...
Laurel, who is concerned that people rely on too little or too much information from social networking and au courant gardening magazines.
I want to add that I've already addressed the notion of putting anything into the soil that can potentially accumulate. Folks think of manure as "natural" and don't think there is a limit as to how much or how often. If you are thinking about the ideal natural garden or landscape you have ever seen anywhere in the world just think how many animals pooped there to make it happen. Not as many as some are dumping in their gardens annually. They say we live in a society where folks want everything yesterday. We want to have a garden that's been naturally manured for dozens of years, or longer, in a short time. Why not just dump 10-10-10? I would rather do that.
I'm certainly not up on all those concerns. And I agree that "persistent" and "cumulative" tocins are the ones to be most concerned about, unless you live downstyream from a chemical plant, and then you probably have VERY REAL and immediate toxic concerns.
I'm glad that others are paying attention to the "maybe eventually" pollution issues. Having worked in the chemical issues, I'm moe interezsted in the "whoops someone left a valve open and there go 7,000 gallons of toluene into the Quinipiac River, how will we fudge our inventory records so we aren't blames" kinds of issues.
As to breakdown products, yes, a huge problem in SuperFund cleanup sites. Probably not with household usage of metaldehyde slug bait - but maybe ... who do you trust and who do you believe?
Having done some biochemistry, it always surprises me that there is ANYTHING organic that soil and compost CAN'T break down, but I know it's true: halogenated compounds can be incredibly tough.
>> but then look at our waterways filled with antibiotics, herbicides and petrochemicals.
>> That's drinking water for most people in this country.
I drink the water and breath the air, so I had better be tough too. But I know I'm not going to live forever, and have enough medical problems of my own that I take very long odds on the fact that it won't be pollution that kills me.
When one particular medical condition surfaced, I immediatly suspected one group of chemicals I used to work with (certain organo-phosphate hydraulic fluids) - or the yellow-dye carcinogen di-chlorobenzidene I used to help manufacture - or those aflatoxins in that lab in college - or the radioisotopes at my first job ... it kind of took my mind off the condition itself, wondering about all the candidates. But surprise, despite all the interesting and high-tech industrial hazards I've played with, as far as medicine knows, NONE of those have any effect on GBS (an auto-immune wierdness).
Sometimes I haul 5 gallon jugs of well-water back from a 350-foot deep well, despite "good" city water, but what says that deep aquifer isn't as polluted as rainwater and air are?
I can't worry about everything. But it is good that other people are keeping their eye on lying industries and regulatory agencies, and they still have some hope they can have some influence.
Corey
Risingcreek, looking back at your original question about horse manure and your wish to improve your soil quality,you need to add organic material to your dirt not just fertilizer. Horse manure and composted bedding are a good way to do this.. I would really try the bean seed test that I mentioned above. If the bean grows then you know there is no systemic herbicide in the manure, I agree with you, anything you grow yourself has got to be better then store bought. I would just hate to see you go to all that work and not be able to grow veggies. You may also want to check out the Soil and Composting forum there is some great info there.
I try to look at it as a learning process. personally, if the bean test works i am not going to worry about it. there are tomatoes growing up through the manure(they were there first as volunteers along with a gazillion weeds that i tried to smother, didnt work on the tomatoes, did on the weeds) i think i could make myself crazy(er) worrying about all the stuff that might be in the manure. a lot of the comments were very thought provoking, and i might do some web research, but i think the best advice comes right from the people here on DG, who are gardeners and have learned through experience. rick corey is right about things we have done in the past, i am probably already past redemption health wise.
There is so much that we can't control in our environment that I just give it my best shot and don't drive myself nuts. We use chicken manure in our garden, but feed our chickens Purina or other commercial feeds, so I'm sure there are GMOs in there these days. We do garden organically so I figure at least we are radically lowering our chemical load. That's all you can do.
My beef (;-D) with horse manure is the weed seeds. After using some from our friends the garden was a mess. So I don't apply that anymore.
I don't do horse manure anymore either because I never get a hot compost pile for long enough. I'd LOVE to have rabbit poop, though!
rabbit poop would also be my first choice. or llama. but, beggers cant be choosers (did i spell that correctly?)
OMG i just realized i quoted my mother (something i swore i would never do)
This message was edited Jul 23, 2011 11:08 AM
When I lived in South Florida, I had horse manure delivered each summer. The person I purchased it from owned a plant nursery and everything he handled was grown organically.
>> at least we are radically lowering our chemical load.
That does seem the course of wisdom - do what's practical, take the low-hanging fruit, get the most benefit for your effort. Do sweat the big stuff, and do what you can about the medium stuff by focusing your time and attention.
Corey
You might find this interesting...
http://atlantaveggies.blogspot.com/2011/07/when-organic-gardening-goes-horribly.html
Herbicide in manures is more common than many would think. I dealt with Grayzon in my top soil - here's more info on recognizing the problem. Beans are used for testing because they are particularly sensitive to the herbicides - apparently there are lots of legume type weeds growing in pastures.... (I attached a photo of the xnap beans from May 2010 that were showing the first signs of herbicide problems).
http://www.ehow.com/list_6144708_dangers-grayzon-herbicide_.html
http://orange.ces.ncsu.edu/files/library/68/Herbicide%20Carryover.pdf
http://www.the-compost-gardener.com/picloram.html
It's 19 months later and I still see problems in some spots in my garden...
Cindy
